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  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4548

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2021, 12:51:52 pm »
Very little of what we're seeing here has much to do with Mr. Trump's and Mr. Biden's plans.
Regardless of who or how the withdrawal was planned, the Taliban's takeover was inevitable.

Just another notch on the Graveyard of Empires' belt, unfortunately.  :sad:

It was eventually.  But the Taliban may have been more restrained for a time if they were more scared of Biden.  No one is scared of sleepy Joe.  He's too busy sleeping. 


Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2021, 12:53:22 pm »
Who knows, we might see a "kinder, gentler" Taliban this time around. A Taliban more focused on economic prosperity and actual sustained governance than establishing another Caliphate. Something akin to Iran more than, well, the Taliban.


Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2021, 12:55:42 pm »
It was eventually.  But the Taliban may have been more restrained for a time if they were more scared of Biden.  No one is scared of sleepy Joe.  He's too busy sleeping. 
Biden at least should keep a Bolton-type on his staff so whomever else thinks there's always a chance of us going nutso and just nuking the shit out of them or completely destabilizing their economy.


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2946

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2021, 12:57:53 pm »
The Taliban has 200,000 troops.
source? last i checked taliban was around 75,000 and the afghan national army was around 300,000

the taliban might also have been more restrained if they were more scared of ANA...
more gg more skill


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6979

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2021, 01:16:14 pm »
Saw the 200,000 stat on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

(Might be less though.)

How was the Taliban able to take Afghanistan so quickly? It came as a shock. (And was a direct result of US troop withdrawal. I guess a couple thousand or so US troops is a bigger repellent than 300,000 Afghan national army troops?)

Following the US withdrawal of troops from Iraq, ISIS took over. Iraq’s national army troops didn’t fight back much. Why was that? They were somewhat sympathetic to ISIS and there is a similar situation now in Afghanistan? Many of Afghanistan’s national army troops like the Taliban and welcome the reinstatement of Sharia law? That’s partly the case it seems.


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2946

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2021, 01:16:27 pm »
(not that its particularly relevant to anything but for anyone curious like me... the wiki source puts the numbers at 60,000 core fighters +90,000 in local militias +other "support elements" and the afghan national forces at up to 350,000)

i'm not sure how shocking it was for people who know more than we do. i read an article by a vet who said that it's pretty much what anyone would've expected because ANA is deeply corrupt and mostly useless (though in a different article i read that this wasn't true re: the afghan special forces)

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/08/why-afghanistan-is-falling-to-the-taliban-so-fast/
more gg more skill


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6979

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2021, 01:21:24 pm »
Wikipedia says: “In 2017, the Taliban was estimated to have 200,000 troops.”

But then go to the source and it says 60,000 core fighters plus 90,000 local militias plus 50,000 support elements… So maybe 150,000 is a more accurate number?


Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2021, 01:33:46 pm »
20 years of occupation and the entire gdp of a middle income country spent...yet all the Afghans have to show for it is a better equipped Taliban.
I guess this all comes down to how the Taliban behave from now on. If indeed they moderate somewhat (well, by Afghan standards) then that surely has to in part be due to some of the changes that were enabled through the occupation. Not that those changes offset the damage and carnage, but just saying, you can always find some benefits.

I do think one big thing is the rise and availability of digital communication. I mean, seems the Taliban hasn't said anything about dismantling 4G service. I imagine if they came out with that as their platform, resistance might have been stiffer. The old ways of fighting and bombing are still going to be around, but I think many recognize the future battlefield is on youtube and twitter and other platforms. That's where the young people are and that's where the Taliban has to win. Too many cats are out of the bag for them to go back to the old ways. Seems they recognize they have to be savvier.

Quote
I'd imagine if that money was invested back home, a lot of teachers in Korea would have no reason to have even gone to work in Korea in the first place.
Would have just been used for a tax cut for the wealthy/foreign aid/some bridge to nowhere/The Robert Byrd Memorial Stadium Memorial


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4548

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2021, 02:53:36 pm »
There is also a good chance that after a period of rule and probably retributions, that eventually they will go back to fighting amongst themselves which Afghans always do in history.  Tribal groups fighting each other. 


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 2812

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2021, 05:33:57 pm »
The international community haven't really given a damn about what's happened in Myanmar with all the killing of protestors. As long as the Taliban don't allow Afghanistan to become a haven again for Al-Qaeda and ISIS then I don't think anyone will care about what they do with Afghanistan.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6979

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2021, 06:24:11 pm »
That's rather cynical and not true. The international community put sanctions on Myanmar. From a business standpoint that's losing money - millions of buyers and sellers - in order to force a bad government's hand into doing the right thing going forward in the present and future. If they don't comply, sanctions won't be lifted. And this sends a message and is a deterrent to other would be human rights abusers around the globe. Stuff like this actually works. It got African countries to outlaw slavery, at least on paper. Losing out on trade with the United States would be a huge economic blow to any country. Massive importer and exporter. That's enough to bend a government's actions to the side of goodness in most cases, and a reason why human rights and democracy are flourishing around the world. Things are getting better in the world overall. Almost eight billion people on our planet. Most are able to live in peace.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 2812

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2021, 06:31:19 pm »
That's rather cynical and not true. The international community put sanctions on Myanmar. From a business standpoint that's losing money - millions of buyers and sellers - in order to force a bad government's hand into doing the right thing going forward in the present and future. If they don't comply, sanctions won't be lifted. And this sends a message and is a deterrent to other would be human rights abusers around the globe. Stuff like this actually works. It got African countries to outlaw slavery, at least on paper. Losing out on trade with the United States would be a huge economic blow to any country. Massive importer and exporter. That's enough to bend a government's actions to the side of goodness in most cases, and a reason why human rights and democracy are flourishing around the world. Things are getting better in the world overall. Almost eight billion people on our planet. Most are able to live in peace.

As far as I've read, Myanmar is still trading with China. It's not like it's cut off from the world. China is still putting billions of dollars into projects in Myanmar and blocked a wider resolution for sanctions at the United Nations Security Council. The rich and elite of any country will still find ways to make and preserve their wealth at the expense of the people.


Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2021, 06:36:09 pm »
Gotta agree with Savant here. Sanctions CAN be significant but often they are toothless.

Basically for bad regimes, the lower the profile, the less interest the broader international community will take an interest in your affairs. Sort of like drug trafficking or arms sales. Sell to people no one cares about and keep the body count off the front pages and while there may be some efforts, they probably aren't going to send some SEAL Team to kill you alongside the Federales.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5242

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2021, 01:25:34 am »
List of blame for Afghanistan Situation
1. Bush
2. Obama
3. Trump
4. Biden

List of Blame for Afghanistan Pullout
1. Biden
2. Trump
3. Obama
4. Bush
Why blame Biden instead of giving him credit for making the tough decision to pull out knowing the conservatives would be on him like white on rice for doing so?

He and his people may have screwed up the pullout but could/should they have known that Afghan forces would fold like a cheap suit?

And he's right when he says why should we fight for people who won't fight for themselves.

If the Afghan forces has not laid out the red carpet for the Taliban, few would care. It was high time to leave.


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2946

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2021, 07:38:26 am »
could/should they have known that Afghan forces would fold like a cheap suit?
yes
more gg more skill


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4548

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2021, 07:38:49 am »
Why blame Biden instead of giving him credit for making the tough decision to pull out knowing the conservatives would be on him like white on rice for doing so?

He and his people may have screwed up the pullout but could/should they have known that Afghan forces would fold like a cheap suit?

And he's right when he says why should we fight for people who won't fight for themselves.

If the Afghan forces has not laid out the red carpet for the Taliban, few would care. It was high time to leave.

Which Conservatives?  The never Trumper warmonger neo con loser crowd?  They are a minority in the Conservative movement now.  So, screw them.  Trump was right to get out.  But Biden bungled it.  It should have been more staged and transitioned.  But who's scared of Biden?  No one. 


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2021, 07:50:07 am »
End result would've been exactly the same, unfortunately.


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1855

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2021, 07:50:15 am »
That's rather cynical and not true. The international community put sanctions on Myanmar. From a business standpoint that's losing money - millions of buyers and sellers - in order to force a bad government's hand into doing the right thing going forward in the present and future. If they don't comply, sanctions won't be lifted. And this sends a message and is a deterrent to other would be human rights abusers around the globe. Stuff like this actually works. It got African countries to outlaw slavery, at least on paper. Losing out on trade with the United States would be a huge economic blow to any country. Massive importer and exporter. That's enough to bend a government's actions to the side of goodness in most cases, and a reason why human rights and democracy are flourishing around the world. Things are getting better in the world overall. Almost eight billion people on our planet. Most are able to live in peace.

sanctions dont do much unless everyones on board, china almost never is


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4548

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2021, 07:56:14 am »
End result would've been exactly the same, unfortunately.

Nah, Trump would have let the generals drop some firepower on them if they got too close to Kabul.  Biden is more in that leftist politically correct way of thinking of let your enemy walk all over you.  End result of Taliban taking over would have eventually been the same in a couple of months yes.  But they would have held back and the departure would have been able to be more orderly.  Biden really dropped the ball.


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1855

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: I agree with Biden and the Afghan pullout.
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2021, 08:04:55 am »
i wont claim to know whether trump wouldve done better or not since thats kind of a moot point anyways, but yeah, biden did really drop the ball getting people out of there. to the point that almost everybody seems to be mad at it, while if there was an actual orderly retreat itd probably mostly be conservatives raging
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 08:10:56 am by 745sticky »