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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #140 on: October 07, 2021, 10:58:45 am »
Oh, some people affiliated with Pat Buchanan set up a website twenty years ago That means more than the fact that drone strikes, civilian deaths, military spending  and military personnel all increased under Trump. There I was thinking that Trump's distaste for the "neo-con / neo-lib war machine" was hard to square with the fact that political contributions from defense companies favored Republicans while he was in office. And it seemed a bit contradictory that the great anti-war candidate removed Obama-era transparency measures designed to accurately report civilian deaths, while praising and pardoning convicted war criminals.

But now I understand. A website. Pat Buchanan. Early 2000s.

Okay.


First, a correction, apparently it started during the Bosnian War.

Anyways, this was a the major anti-Iraq War website and at its peak would draw hundreds of thousands of views and included submissions by Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul (the one GOP Congressman who voted against the war) and Noam Chomsky.

FFS, you're so wrapped up in "team" you can't accept that Trump, while still bad, was much less worse than Hillary or Biden and you can't even admit to War, Inc. which blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain.
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  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #141 on: October 07, 2021, 11:27:12 am »
FFS, you're so wrapped up in "team" you can't accept that Trump, while still bad, was much less worse than Hillary or Biden and you can't even admit to War, Inc. which blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain.

Great point. When I think about War, Inc. I think about defense contracts, campaign donations and political lobbying, international arms sales and the revolving door between Washington and defense company boardrooms. But all of those make your claims about Trump look ridiculous, so perhaps I should focus on something else, like what Pat Buchanan was up to twenty years ago.


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #142 on: October 07, 2021, 12:16:49 pm »
That Mueller couldn't prove collusion doesn't mean there wasn't any evidence,

i mean, it's Mueller's job to prove it. sure, there could theoretically be compelling evidence out there, but I can't know that when the prosecutor is unable to dredge it up. Trump did have certain protections, but Mueller had basically the full assistance of the FBI. pretty sure those at the very least even out


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #143 on: October 07, 2021, 12:18:39 pm »
as to the whole trump vs hillary or whatever it is you two are doing thing, the military-industrial complex will keep going strong regardless of who is in office. Trump promised a lot and delivered very little of it. i also frankly question whether he has any actual political opinions beyond what his constituents, whoever they happen to be, want to hear.


  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #144 on: October 07, 2021, 12:31:20 pm »
as to the whole trump vs hillary or whatever it is you two are doing thing, the military-industrial complex will keep going strong regardless of who is in office. Trump promised a lot and delivered very little of it. i also frankly question whether he has any actual political opinions beyond what his constituents, whoever they happen to be, want to hear.

What are you talking about? A loose affiliation with Pat Buchanan two decades ago is perfectly sufficient to determine his position vis-a-vis the military-industrial complex. Certainly more valuable than examining what he did as President between 2016 and 2020.


Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #145 on: October 07, 2021, 01:11:26 pm »
What are you talking about? A loose affiliation with Pat Buchanan two decades ago is perfectly sufficient to determine his position vis-a-vis the military-industrial complex. Certainly more valuable than examining what he did as President between 2016 and 2020.
I don't think that Trump has much of a personal philosophy and if it suited him, he'd advocate invasion. But the fact is he DID go with the isolationist position, which outside of Rand Paul, was not supported by anyone else on the GOP ticket. And once in there, he didn't do foreign policy as usual and stopped listening much to the very establishment that has been around since the Iraq War. He decided to shake the box on North Korea and while it hasn't been perfect, the situation is undoubtedly better than before. North Korea has refrained from nuclear tests and long-rang ballistic missile tests. The last "OMG We're all going to die because of North Korea!!!!" (previously a near-annual occurance) was in late 2017 before the detente happened. Since then, nothing. Everyone told him he was wrong, but for now, it appears that Trump's jaw-jaw was better than War, Inc.'s Threat-Threat.

Trump wasn't perfect, but considering the alternative and her track record, I'm glad we had Trump in there. Was anything he did really THAT bad relative to the field? I couldn't see Clinton doing much better and I could see her doing A LOT worse.
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  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #146 on: October 07, 2021, 01:43:46 pm »
I don't think that Trump has much of a personal philosophy and if it suited him, he'd advocate invasion. But the fact is he DID go with the isolationist position, which outside of Rand Paul, was not supported by anyone else on the GOP ticket. And once in there, he didn't do foreign policy as usual and stopped listening much to the very establishment that has been around since the Iraq War. He decided to shake the box on North Korea and while it hasn't been perfect, the situation is undoubtedly better than before. North Korea has refrained from nuclear tests and long-rang ballistic missile tests. The last "OMG We're all going to die because of North Korea!!!!" (previously a near-annual occurance) was in late 2017 before the detente happened. Since then, nothing. Everyone told him he was wrong, but for now, it appears that Trump's jaw-jaw was better than War, Inc.'s Threat-Threat.

Trump wasn't perfect, but considering the alternative and her track record, I'm glad we had Trump in there. Was anything he did really THAT bad relative to the field? I couldn't see Clinton doing much better and I could see her doing A LOT worse.

What measures would you use to evaluate a politician's capture by the military-industrial complex? I would look at things like number of military actions, covert and overt (including drone strikes), civilian and military casualties, defense spending, military personnel expansion, campaign contributions from defense companies, meetings with defense company lobbyists, transparency and accountability, treatment of US military members convicted of war crimes, efforts to close down black sites such as Guantanamo Bay, treatment of military whistleblowers, enabling of domestic surveillance and appointment of military personnel to civilian government roles. Much of the criticisms leveled at Obama, Clinton and Biden for all this stuff are completely valid. In almost every category, though, Trump was objectively worse. I don't see how that marks a break with the establishment. I don't know why you think Trump was better than he actually was. My theory is that you took it on faith and just never bothered to look at the details. It's time to be honest with yourself, though.


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #147 on: October 08, 2021, 04:00:48 am »
i mean, it's Mueller's job to prove it. sure, there could theoretically be compelling evidence out there, but I can't know that when the prosecutor is unable to dredge it up. Trump did have certain protections, but Mueller had basically the full assistance of the FBI. pretty sure those at the very least even out
Mueller didn't pursue it with much energy since he had pre-determined he wasn't going to charge trump. An example of that is allowing trump to answer questions in writing rather than to depose him in person.


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #148 on: October 08, 2021, 04:03:05 am »
I don't think that Trump has much of a personal philosophy and if it suited him, he'd advocate invasion. But the fact is he DID go with the isolationist position, which outside of Rand Paul, was not supported by anyone else on the GOP ticket. And once in there, he didn't do foreign policy as usual and stopped listening much to the very establishment that has been around since the Iraq War. He decided to shake the box on North Korea and while it hasn't been perfect, the situation is undoubtedly better than before. North Korea has refrained from nuclear tests and long-rang ballistic missile tests. The last "OMG We're all going to die because of North Korea!!!!" (previously a near-annual occurance) was in late 2017 before the detente happened. Since then, nothing. Everyone told him he was wrong, but for now, it appears that Trump's jaw-jaw was better than War, Inc.'s Threat-Threat.

Trump wasn't perfect, but considering the alternative and her track record, I'm glad we had Trump in there. Was anything he did really THAT bad relative to the field? I couldn't see Clinton doing much better and I could see her doing A LOT worse.
NK just tested a hypersonic missile, which they were developing during trump's time in office. How is that "undoubtedly better"?


  • hangook77
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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #149 on: October 08, 2021, 08:24:41 am »
NK just tested a hypersonic missile, which they were developing during trump's time in office. How is that "undoubtedly better"?

Don't forget beyond the substance that Trump tightened sanctions on them even more and never removed them even with "friendly" meetings.  NK was angry about it.  But, they did not do any more tests.  They did start out doing them again after Biden went back to business as usual and ignored them. 


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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #150 on: October 08, 2021, 09:14:04 am »
Don't forget beyond the substance that Trump tightened sanctions on them even more and never removed them even with "friendly" meetings.  NK was angry about it.  But, they did not do any more tests.  They did start out doing them again after Biden went back to business as usual and ignored them. 
You joking? They launched like 9 in 2019.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_missile_tests


Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #151 on: October 08, 2021, 10:56:34 am »
You joking? They launched like 9 in 2019.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_missile_tests
Cruise missiles, yes. No ICBMs.

It's thr ICBMs we're most worried about, not some anti-ship missile.
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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #152 on: October 08, 2021, 11:01:41 am »
NK just tested a hypersonic missile, which they were developing during trump's time in office. How is that "undoubtedly better"?
It's not an ICBM.

Is North Korea supposed to have ZERO military development? The point is that theyve ceased testing the worst of the worst, which is a step in the right direction.
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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: The former President speaks.
« Reply #153 on: October 09, 2021, 12:01:29 am »
It's not an ICBM.

Is North Korea supposed to have ZERO military development? The point is that theyve ceased testing the worst of the worst, which is a step in the right direction.
"A step in the right direction." LOL.

You would travel the globe on your hands and knees to find a way to defend trump.