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  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

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    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
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Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2021, 09:56:11 am »
in my experience, it seems like it is one's patriotic duty to shit on england, no?
more gg more skill


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2021, 10:46:12 am »
It's unreasonable to expect a culture to remain the same.
It's unreasonable not to notice that Korea has undergone massive changes post-1945 and even in the time many of us have been here yet still view them as living with a year 1200 mentality and practices.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2021, 11:14:39 am »
It's unreasonable not to notice that Korea has undergone massive changes post-1945 and even in the time many of us have been here yet still view them as living with a year 1200 mentality and practices.

As has every country... congratulations.

I don't think it's a good idea to force or prevent cultural change, it's best to let it happen organically. In the meantime, I will continue to criticise what I believe needs to be criticised because that's the right Democracy entitles us to have and that's what I'll do.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2021, 12:11:06 pm »
As has every country... congratulations.

I don't think it's a good idea to force or prevent cultural change, it's best to let it happen organically. In the meantime, I will continue to criticise what I believe needs to be criticised because that's the right Democracy entitles us to have and that's what I'll do.
There's that but when the criticism gets into "Why aren't these people changing overnight to what I want them to be?" It becomes something else. If they're being held to a different and/or unreasonable standard then the criticism is unjustified, especially when it seems that Korea in fact has changed at a rate that is probably above-average.

Not saying all your criticism is unjustified or unreasonable but I do think some does judge them rather harshly.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2021, 12:46:36 pm »
There's that but when the criticism gets into "Why aren't these people changing overnight to what I want them to be?" It becomes something else. If they're being held to a different and/or unreasonable standard then the criticism is unjustified, especially when it seems that Korea in fact has changed at a rate that is probably above-average.

Not saying all your criticism is unjustified or unreasonable but I do think some does judge them rather harshly.

There's criticism to find in every culture. I agree that humans are egocentric in the sense that everything becomes scaled to our lives, in this case time. That's to say, people tend to think 40yrs in cultural terms is a long time, since its' roughly half a human's lifetime... in cultural terms, 40yrs is typically nothing.

That said, I've always had problems with cultures Confucianism has influenced. It's not any one cultural practice in particular, it's the fact that Confucianism itself is, quite frankly... unnatural. Evolution/adaptation/change underpins everything in humans and nature and Confucianism teaches to resist this. It was concocted in a place and time with little contact with the outside world and most of its' teaching were edited by those in positions of power with interests of subjugating and exploiting those beneath them, while maintaining the status quo.

Harsh? Maybe, but, so what? A culture, norm or practice that is embraced and approved of by the society it encompasses has no need to fear criticism, harsh or light.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4957

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Cairo, Egypt (formerly Seoul)
Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2021, 12:50:49 pm »
… and most of its' teaching were edited by those in positions of power with interests of subjugating and exploiting those beneath them, while maintaining the status quo…


Same as Christianity, Judaism, Islam…



Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2021, 01:03:43 pm »
Same as Christianity, Judaism, Islam…

I knew that was coming and that's a matter of opinion, not fact.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2021, 01:39:56 pm »
Confucianism itself is, quite frankly... unnatural. Evolution/adaptation/change underpins everything in humans and nature and Confucianism teaches to resist this.
Outside of Darwinism and similar philosophies, I can't really think of any moral system that has been embraced that wasn't resistant to change in some degree and didn't seek some element of stability and control over unbridled adaptation. In fact, given Korea's relative speed at adapting once presented with the opportunity, it would seem that this claim is certainly questionable. Confucianism could well be on the more "ordered" end of the spectrum, but it is not completely against change.

If we look at nature plenty of species seek to establish strict hierarchies and avoid change. Many animals favor harems controlled by a single dominant male or female. There is no egalitarianism. Any challenge to this order is met with violence. And often there is an element of reciprocity in animal relation and younger animals are expected to follow the social hierarchy that has developed, less they be exiled from the herd. (Cut to some other critic of Confucianism who claims that it is an "animalistic" philosophy that does little to raise us above nature- The critic can always twist the language to fit their view, no matter what happens)

Quote
Harsh? Maybe, but, so what? A culture, norm or practice that is embraced and approved of by the society it encompasses has no need to fear criticism, harsh or light.
I think the issue is to what extent is Confucianism radically different than other ancient philosophies of the time that shaped the world, given that from about the year 10,000 B.C. to 1800 A.D., virtually all societies were very stratified and based around kings and empires and institutions that did no encourage much in the way of innovation or equality. That's before we get to how much society in Korea is Confucian and the extent to which it causes great difference (in my view, the difference is virtually negligible- There's a reason it's a pretty easy adaptation for people to move from U.S. to Korea and back again, and if you think it's hard, give me a break)

For the developed world and even much of the developing world, life is virtually the same. Only when you start to get to places with lack of access to public education, regular child labor, food scarcity, endemic warfare and disease, lack of access to most forms of modern technology, etc. that you start to get into radically different cultures. There's a reason people can watch American or Korean dramas in dozens of countries and relate to things. Likewise for the past with most empires that cropped up you had a king and nobility, some sort of clergy, a merchant/soldier/civil servant class, a skilled laborer class, and then a mass of peasants. In all of them you had stratified institutions, corruption, resistance to change, dogma, usually some sort of divine basis for rulership, lower status of women, a big emphasis on family ties and marriage for economic purposes, distrust of outsiders (unless you were in one of the merchant areas), some sort of warfare that often involved peasants being levied to take down some noble or fight off some invader, etc.

Amongst the developed world, the only BIG split that really took place was the Democracy-Fascism-Communism split and even THEN you still had vast areas of overlap.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4957

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Cairo, Egypt (formerly Seoul)
Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2021, 02:10:15 pm »
I knew that was coming and that's a matter of opinion, not fact.

No offense intended.

What if I said “Medici Popes, Zionists, Wahhabism…”

 


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2021, 02:50:02 pm »
No offense intended.

What if I said “Medici Popes, Zionists, Wahhabism…”
 

We simply cannot engage in a fruitful discussion on the Abrahamic Faiths unless both parties agree on the premise that
the Torah, Bible and Qur'an were sent by the One God and that God is infallible.

For example, I'm going to say that Zionism and Wahhabism are political, ideological and legal systems and not Faiths. Then you're going to say "How is that different from Islam". I'm going to say that Islam is the Religion based in the Qur'an, which was revealed by God, via the angel Gabriel to Muhammad (PBUH). You're going to disagree with that and say it's man-made etc.

The premise of our arguments are completely different so we're ALWAYS going to disagree.


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1862

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2021, 02:52:42 pm »
It's unreasonable to expect a culture to remain the same.

right, but that sort of change usually happens naturally over time or due to some big political upheaval, not due to X complaint thread on waygook dot org about Y and Z annoying, mostly innocuous things, lol


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4957

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Cairo, Egypt (formerly Seoul)
Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2021, 05:49:52 pm »
We simply cannot engage in a fruitful discussion on the Abrahamic Faiths unless both parties agree on the premise that
the Torah, Bible and Qur'an were sent by the One God and that God is infallible.

For example, I'm going to say that Zionism and Wahhabism are political, ideological and legal systems and not Faiths. Then you're going to say "How is that different from Islam". I'm going to say that Islam is the Religion based in the Qur'an, which was revealed by God, via the angel Gabriel to Muhammad (PBUH). You're going to disagree with that and say it's man-made etc.

The premise of our arguments are completely different so we're ALWAYS going to disagree.
I don’t wish to debate your firmly held beliefs.

What I am saying is that (corrupted?) religion has been used for millennia, across cultures, to control people for political and personal gain.

Why would Confucianism be different?










Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2021, 08:12:01 am »
I don’t wish to debate your firmly held beliefs.

What I am saying is that (corrupted?) religion has been used for millennia, across cultures, to control people for political and personal gain.

Why would Confucianism be different?

You're right, it doesn't have to be a Religion at all. With enough charisma, know-how and motivation, I could start an ideology, Religion or movement around 'Jamie Oliver's Christmas Cookbook' and force people to make and eat Turkey Risotto 24/7. Would this make the book oppressive?

There's a distinction between something that is used to oppress and something that is oppressive.

Finally, the foundation of my belief is that the only uncorrupted scripture from God that remains is the Qur'an. Confucianism, like Wahhabism or Zionism are man-made/interpreted by men who were not prophets.
You do not share this belief meaning we wont be able to agree on the distinction of what is Divine and what isn't.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2021, 11:08:45 am »
In 5 years of living in South Korea I never met a Korean who said anything bad about the US. When they heard I was an American they were always gracious and curious about it.

This is Confucian propriety.

It's not that Koreans don't think bad things about America, but it's disrespectful to say them. Unfortunately the foreigners here, from the West, have no such propriety or shame.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2021, 12:38:13 pm »
This is Confucian propriety.

It's not that Koreans don't think bad things about America, but it's disrespectful to say them. Unfortunately the foreigners here, from the West, have no such propriety or shame.

I don't know... but my co-teacher and I often openly talk about the pros and cons of both Korea and the West. And she was brought up by a really strict grandfather, but still has no problems openly sharing her opinions. Often times she will apologize for how ignorant and uneducated alot of the older Koreans can be.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2021, 12:57:17 pm »
This is Confucian propriety.

It's not that Koreans don't think bad things about America, but it's disrespectful to say them. Unfortunately the foreigners here, from the West, have no such propriety or shame.

I'm pretty sure people in the West are also taught that it"s disrespectful to say bad things about a country to people from that country


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2021, 08:47:14 am »
This is Confucian propriety.

It's not that Koreans don't think bad things about America, but it's disrespectful to say them. Unfortunately the foreigners here, from the West, have no such propriety or shame.

This “sincerity” concept is much deeper than the English term, and has to do with the unity between man and nature which is at the heart of Chinese philosophy. From perfect sincerity there is nowhere to run, nowhere to retreat to, because you’re already at your true nature—that’s the highest chung.


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2021, 11:36:25 am »
This is Confucian propriety.

It's not that Koreans don't think bad things about America, but it's disrespectful to say them. Unfortunately the foreigners here, from the West, have no such propriety or shame.
This is nonsense.

Koreans talk sh*t about other countries and people all the time.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 11:22:06 am by Mr.DeMartino »


  • Liechtenstein
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1717

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2021, 01:40:31 pm »
I have never understood the whole ethnocentrism thing. Who cares what anyone says about the country you were born in? You had nothing to do with it.

I'm from Canada and it is clearly one of the best countries in the world to live in. I could sit around and listen to people dump on Canada all day long and it wouldn't bother me at all. I never understood the outrageous pride some (most) people show in their birth country. Koreans are among the worst perpetrators of this in my opinion. But then again, most people are proud of their birth country and get their hackles up when others dump on it.

Why? How does it affect you, as a Korean, that an American shits on Korea? Or any other possible combination. It doesn't. So why get upset?

I'm proud to be Canadian. Why? I had no say in the matter at all. It's nothing to be proud of. It's nothing to be ashamed of either. It is what it is.

To me, it falls into the same category as saying, "I'm proud I have brown eyes." Really......


Re: Disillusioned people of Korean Ancestry
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2021, 06:48:32 am »
I'm pretty sure people in the West are also taught that it’s disrespectful to say bad things about a country to people from that country.”

Yet Americans do it constantly; they call this “just criticizing, objectively, free speech” and its an entire industry, and internet pastime (e.g. this forum).

Also, you apparently haven’t been paying attention to the new round of “Yellow Peril,” and related slurs at Asians (“bat soup” etc). Meanwhile, it took China 170 years of being under attack to finally break propriety recently and start attacking back in the crude mode normal to English speakers (see “wolf warriors”). But even now, it’s in a quite respectful (relatively). Why? This comes from Ruist propriety, which is meant to keep the social order (which is falling apart in America).

This is nonsense.

Koreans talk shut about other countries and people all the time.

Strawman.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 06:50:19 am by KimchiNinja »