Read 3792 times

  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2523

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2021, 07:42:07 am »
TylertheSLOB.  HaHAHA, that just came to me spontaneously, slob, good one. 
haha good1!

If don’t know there are small particles you can’t see that are being transferred onto the carpet, you shouldn’t be posting on hygiene.
yeah man im not sure poop particles on my carpet are the biggest fish to fry in terms of hygiene, but what do i know? i'm tylertheslob! i hope korean people with dogs make their dogs wear little shoes when they go outside. oh man but what if the dogs roll around in the grass? i guess you gotta wash the dog every time it goes in and out of the apartment to get all those poop particles off the dog. aw man now you're gonna ruin dogs for me too, aren't you?
more gg more skill


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7108

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2021, 08:07:36 am »
Do you know why they don't take their shoes off in American TV shows when they get home?

Because it messes with the camera. Usually when they come home, they start talking to their wife, yeah?

Well, for eyelines they should both be standing. No director wants to have an actor bend over on their knee, grunting, to take their shoes off for 12 seconds. 12 seconds is FOREVER in TV land. The symbolism of taking off their coat is FAST and doesn't require them to lower their posture.
ETA 2day 4hour 45min to next reboot.
DO NOT UNPLUG


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2021, 11:13:38 am »
While KimchiNinja's point is a trollish one, he is right about one thing- Often the standards for hygeinic behavior are incredibly subjective and many practices people are not even aware of. Case in point- shaking hands. Like, in terms of disease transmission, this practice is WRETCHED. It's in all likelihood worse than even sharing a dish of pickled or spiced food.

Should people who shake hands be termed "dirty" and given the vitriol that Koreans get for some of their practices? I personally don't think so but I try to extend the same courtesy towards everyone. Also, in the end, while all these practices have problems, I think by and large they are of relatively little impact overall. Disease is still going to disease. 

If you aren't flinging the same level of hate and rage towards hand shakers as you are spitters or dish sharers, then you're just being at best completely arbitrary, at worst you're a bigot.


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

    • 2186

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2021, 11:44:33 am »
Case in point- shaking hands. Like, in terms of disease transmission, this practice is WRETCHED. It's in all likelihood worse than even sharing a dish of pickled or spiced food.


Why is it in all likelihood worse than sharing a dish of pickled or spiced food?  I mean, obviously hand shaking here means Westerners, and pickled food eating refers to Koreans, so could you expand on why it's worse?  I'd hate to think you're at best being completely arbitrary or at worst, bigoted.  What are some of the reasons that push handshaking into being worse?  Taking into account, of course, that during normal times we all have witnessed first hand that Koreans of all ages and sexes wash their hands far less after using the toilet than their Western counterparts.  If you've lived here, you know that to be true. 


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2523

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2021, 11:59:23 am »
thats why i always wear my handshaking glove
more gg more skill


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2021, 01:20:27 pm »
I mean, obviously hand shaking here means Westerners, and pickled food eating refers to Koreans, so could you expand on why it's worse? 
Because hands are the most likely thing to come into contact with a human's mouth, nose, eyes, and any open wounds. They also come into contact with things such as door handles and the like that are major sources of disease transmission. Handshaking is incredibly unhygienic.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/29/5947703/handshakes-filthy-disease-spreading-tradition-fist-bump-instead-hygiene

If the tables were turned and we were on Foreigner.Org and we were all a bunch of, lets say non-Americans (because apparently the Brits did bow/doff for a period), we would be on here saying things like "Americans shaking hands is a filthy habit. Their hygiene standards are appalling. Don't they know that when they're shaking hands its like rubbing microscopic filth on each other? Dirty people." And I'm SURE all of us Americans would be just fine with it and not do anything considered "apologist" in disagreeing. Seriously, this should be like, common sense. Everyone should know that handshaking is one of the dirtiest, filthiest greetings in existence. It is a filthy habit that should be stopped, given everything we know about science and people who continue to do it are filthy.

Yeah, maybe we should kind of chill with some of the shit we say about Koreans and maybe not cast stones. Me personally, I don't think either the Korean practices we make an issue of or handshaking are that big of a deal as disease is going to disease no matter what and those things only provide marginal protection.

But I am surprised that some people here don't even stop to think of handshaking when they go on all these rants about Korean hygiene practices. If they really cared about stopping disease, shouldn't they be talking about handshaking, considering the audience here is Western and might actually be persuadable?

Or is it just about ranting about the ethnic other as a way to deal with one's frustrations?


  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1006

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2021, 01:43:41 pm »
Quote
Or is it just about ranting about the ethnic other as a way to deal with one's frustrations?

These are quotes from Koreans, talking about spitting in Korea, that I posted earlier in the thread:

Quote
When I walk on the streets, I cannot stand it when someone in front of me suddenly spits on the ground, the ground that I, following behind, will be walking on. I think these people are selfish and disrespectful of others,” said Park Jung-eun, an office worker in Seoul, told The Korea Herald...

“I would accept it, if it was for health- or medical-related reasons. But most of the time, they are not. Spitting is an action which automatically causes me to dislike the person,” Lee said.

“When a man makes that glottal noises to drag up phlegm from the bottom of his throat, it is the worst.”

Do you think they are ranting about the ethnic other?



  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1006

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2021, 01:46:06 pm »
Another Korean publication, ranting about the ethnic other:



Quote
Spitting is one of the collectively yet almost unconsciously learned behaviors among Koreans; in fact, many Koreans don’t even realize that they have a habit of spitting in public. When asked about spitting in public, quite a number of Koreans abhor such a practice, considering the act lacks concern for others.

As for how spitting became so prevalent within Korean society, nobody seems to know.

Some say the majority of habitual spitters are smokers, who claim that spitting can “cleanse” the bitter aftertaste left by smoking, while others say spitting out “stale” saliva can freshen their breath.

For the past few years, Korean city officials and building management have implemented “no spitting” rules.

However, compared with the Korean government’s nationwide campaign to stop discarding unwrapped gum a decade ago, little headway seems to have been made to discourage this habit.

https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2559250
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 01:55:59 pm by fka »


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2021, 01:46:34 pm »
These are quotes from Koreans, talking about spitting in Korea, that I posted earlier in the thread:

Do you think they are ranting about the ethnic other?
They aren't. Do you think everyone here on this forum ranting about spitting is doing so purely out of hygiene concerns and not using it as an excuse to rant about an ethnic other?

Surely if this was about hygiene (in our case) we'd give equal vigor to denouncing handshakes, yes?


  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1006

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2021, 02:32:55 pm »
Maybe in a thread about unhygienic practices in the West. This is a thread about Korea.


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

    • 2186

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2021, 03:10:37 pm »

Surely if this was about hygiene (in our case) we'd give equal vigor to denouncing handshakes, yes?

But, it isn't just about hygiene.  It's a thread specifically about hygiene practices in South Korea.  I'm not saying you're wrong about shaking hands.  It involves a lot of trust of the other person practicing basic hygiene.  But, you're getting frustrated because a thread about South Korean hygiene habits isn't discussing Western hygiene habits.  Just start another thread (WTF did I just say?) Just avoid the thread. 


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 3671

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2021, 03:13:41 pm »
Korea's come a long way.  Now if they'd either put liquid soap in the bathroom, get rid of bar soap, and have bathrooms where you didn't have to touch the knob in public buildings. (A push door would be better.)  Overall, it is better than it use to be.  Much better. 


Korea, you've come a long way baby.


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2021, 12:20:07 pm »
But, it isn't just about hygiene.  It's a thread specifically about hygiene practices in South Korea.  I'm not saying you're wrong about shaking hands.  It involves a lot of trust of the other person practicing basic hygiene.  But, you're getting frustrated because a thread about South Korean hygiene habits isn't discussing Western hygiene habits.  Just start another thread (WTF did I just say?) Just avoid the thread. 

Maybe in a thread about unhygienic practices in the West. This is a thread about Korea.

The OP specifically put in the context of a comparison

As a developed nation are South Korea's hygiene standards up to scratch?

OP: As a developed nation (meaning in relation to other developed nations) is Korea....
DeMart: Well, actually other nations do this....
The Arbitrary: Why are you comparing other nations? We're talking about Korea!!!!!!!!

When you're talking about these things, you ARE comparing Korea to other countries. To say you aren't is ridiculous, it clearly is meant to be a comparison.

Don't whine because your assumptions are getting challenged and you are actually being challenged on your points and your thinking and that some of your preconceived notions are being proven false. Some people here love to come here and lob bombs, but the second they get challenged they throw a hissy fit about someone daring to disagree with them on the very terms that the debate started.

If you introduce an argument, the other side is free to take that argument and turn it against you. You can't complain that it's irrelevant after it has already been introduced.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 12:26:44 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

    • 2186

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2021, 01:03:46 pm »
The OP specifically put in the context of a comparison

OP: As a developed nation (meaning in relation to other developed nations) is Korea....
DeMart: Well, actually other nations do this....
The Arbitrary: Why are you comparing other nations? We're talking about Korea!!!!!!!!

When you're talking about these things, you ARE comparing Korea to other countries. To say you aren't is ridiculous, it clearly is meant to be a comparison.

Don't whine because your assumptions are getting challenged and you are actually being challenged on your points and your thinking and that some of your preconceived notions are being proven false. Some people here love to come here and lob bombs, but the second they get challenged they throw a hissy fit about someone daring to disagree with them on the very terms that the debate started.

If you introduce an argument, the other side is free to take that argument and turn it against you. You can't complain that it's irrelevant after it has already been introduced.

If you want that to stand as a credible rebuttal, you'll need to create a sock account and re-post it.  Your posting history long establishes your knee jerk protective reaction to any post that criticizes anything Korean.  You've overreacted and gone on the war path literally thousands of times, so that ship has sailed.  When it comes to you, everyone knows what motivates you.  It's the why we can't figure out.  Why does it bother you, an American, so much if shade is thrown on Korea?  Most Koreans can accept criticisms of their country or habits but you can't.  This was a thread comparing Korean hygiene practices to Western ones.  Coming from the west we all know what those are, so it would be only logical that Korean habits would be brought up.  You're the only one that gets triggered by it.  We know what our shortcomings are, but let's discuss some Korean ones.  If someone started a thread about Korean meals at dinner, would you feel the need to interject with what constitutes a normal western dinner?  No.  You only jumped in here because you can't handle anything negative being said about Korea.  It would be interesting if you were out with me and the Koreans I spend the majority of my social time with and they shit on Korea, as they are wont to do.  You just wouldn't know how to react. 


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2021, 02:19:22 pm »
It's the why we can't figure out.  Why does it bother you, an American, so much if shade is thrown on Korea? 
1) Genuinely, a lot of the rants and complaints people post on here are poorly thought-out, lacking in context, fixated on the worst possible explanation, etc. You think every one of those complaints are valid? You think every single one of my rebuttals has been invalid? I think a fair-minded person would at least go "Well, DeMart is right some of the time" but if you think I am wrong every single time and all those complaints are valid, well sorry, but the person who needs to change their view isn't me, it's you.
2) I genuinely want to help. I actually went through the "rant nonstop about Koreans" phase before I even got here. I did it back home. It was after some reflection and some maturing, that I realized I wasn't being fair, and that the ranting I was doing wasn't coming from a place of understanding. Furthermore, sometimes they were the ones that were right. However in this group of Koreans I was with, there was one American dude, a former English teacher, who understood what I was going through but he also did a lot of what I do here and it helped me to see both sides.

Quote
Coming from the west we all know what those are, so it would be only logical that Korean habits would be brought up.
1) If we did, and since we all care so much about solving the problem and blast Koreans for not changing their habits, wouldn't we be changing our habits and not doing them?
2) AGAIN- Why is it fair for people ranting about Korea to bring up how the compare to other countries, but it is wrong for people countering those points to bring up Korea? If you say "We are talking about Korea", fine. But don't bring up other countries or do a comparison and then bitch and moan when other countries are brought up or a comparison is done and it counters your point. And this is the problem- You bash me for not being objective, but you aren't even objective enough to realize that you think "bringing up other countries" is permissible only in one direction.

Quote
You only jumped in here because you can't handle anything negative being said about Korea. 
1) Again, false. I have a problem when I feel those complaints are baseless OR lacking in context OR are holding them to an unfair standard. Other times the complaint isn't wholly invalid, but the person complaining maybe should consider other explanations.

Anyways, to paraphrase Capt. Sisko from American History X, concerning all of this ranting and complaining people do here "venting" they call it-
Has any of this ranting made your life better?

It's essentially what my friend I mentioned above said to me. I had to admit that me bitching about Koreans all the time wasn't helping me in any way. And that is wasn't helping them. And it wasn't changing anything. And I certainly wasn't making any effort at anything to make the world a better place, not in any substantive sense.


  • fka
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1006

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2021, 03:00:18 pm »
I think context clues can be valuable in determining a deeper motivation or inferring someone's intention rather than looking at a piece of text in isolation. So I don't blame you for doing that when looking at a critique that foreigners are making about Koreans. But if we subject your posts to the same treatment, we've seen you play the same strategy with regards to spitting many, many times. You pluck some unrelated phenomenon out of the air (dog pee, cow dung, liquor stores with bulletproof glass, now handshakes...) and argue that you can't talk about spitting without talking about X. If you do, you're being arbitrary and hypocritical.

Whether you're conscious of it or not, this is probably your most commonly used argument strategy. Everyone is talking about A and you appear with, "The fact that you're not talking about B makes you all a bunch of narrow-minded hypocrites incapable of complex thinking." I've only been on this site for a couple of years and I've seen you called out on this probably ten times. Who knows how many times you were called out on it before I joined? But you still persist, as if it's a shortcut to guaranteed debate victory. It's not.

The conversation had evolved from the very first post, where "developed nation" implied some degree of comparison. Nobody was talking about hygiene in the west. If you really wanted to talk about handshakes, a better way would have been, "Do you guys know that shaking hands is probably a more unhygienic practice than a lot of Westerners realize?" From there, a more natural conversation could have formed, and you could have waited to see whether or not anyone took the position that shaking hands is harmless and Asians are, on the whole, more unhygienic than Westerners. At which point it would have been fine to make the argument you had in your back pocket. Instead, you charged into the room and accused everyone of being bigoted hypocrites, based on the fact that they hadn't brought up a topic that you just introduced. This a pattern that repeats with you, again and again and again.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 03:05:08 pm by fka »


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 2678

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2021, 03:16:46 pm »
Marty's been peddling the same excrement for years in his unequivocal defense of Korea's practices - going all the way back to when Dave's was a thing. He's got to be bored of posting this inane nonsense or there is just something wrong with him. I just pity him now that he has some mental deficiency that causes him to be constantly triggered to defend Korea after all his arguments have taking a beating.


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2021, 03:28:17 pm »
You pluck some unrelated phenomenon out of the air (dog pee, cow dung, liquor stores with bulletproof glass, now handshakes...) and argue that you can't talk about spitting without talking about X. If you do, you're being arbitrary and hypocritical.
But these things do have to be taken as a whole as well. Yes, you can focus on a specific practice, but if you also don't look comprehensively at everything, then one has to wonder why you're focusing on a specific issue and not any others. For example, I am sure, you're familiar with people ranting about gun crime in Chicago. I think also, you know that this is really just a proxy for other resentments. From my perspective, the spitting thing is a bit like ranting about gun crime in Chicago and getting angry that anyone is pointing out broader issues that relate to it. Of course the gun crime in Chicago thing is often used to deflect from broader issues as well, and from your perspective it may seem like I am doing that.

The point is that we often narrow or broaden when it suits us, but what we can't do is broaden the argument and then complain when someone uses that broad point to counter our argument.

Quote
Whether you're conscious of it or not, this is probably your most commonly used argument strategy. Everyone is talking about A and you appear with, "The fact that you're not talking about B makes you all a bunch of narrow-minded hypocrites incapable of complex thinking." I've only been on this site for a couple of years and I've seen you called out on this probably ten times. Who knows how many times you were called out on it before I joined? But you still persist, as if it's a shortcut to guaranteed debate victory. It's not.
I'd say that in many rants, people will compare Korea to other places, then I will compare Korea to other places in a different direction, and then they complain about it. I've called this out repeatedly and people still persist in it.

But yes, it is true that if you focus on one and ignore others, especially if those others are potentially as bad or worse, that one has to wonder why this one is your focus and not the other. The answer, in humans, often comes down to irrationality and bias.

And also, those things are not wholly unrelated. Pet dogs defecating in the street IS NOT unrelated to the issue of people spitting in the street and cleanliness and hygiene.

Quote
The conversation had evolved from the very first post, where "developed nation" implied some degree of comparison. Nobody was talking about hygiene in the west. If you really wanted to talk about handshakes, a better way would have been, "Do you guys know that shaking hands is probably a more unhygienic practice than a lot of Westerners realize?" From there, a more natural conversation could have formed, and you could have waited to see whether or not anyone took the position that shaking hands is harmless and Asians are, on the whole, more unhygienic than Westerners. At which point it would have been fine to make the argument you had in your back pocket. Instead, you charged into the room and accused everyone of being bigoted hypocrites, based on the fact that they hadn't brought up a topic that you just introduced. This a pattern that repeats with you, again and again and again.
Interesting that you put this burden of reasonableness on me, but not on anyone else, especially those engaged in rants. Are you holding them to a similar standard of patience, focus on topic, consideration and so on? Do you think that threads wouldn't meander if I wasn't here? You don't think that other posters veer off topic or interject flawed points?

Then we also have to ask, given that almost no Koreans read this board and we have virtually zero influence over Korean society, why are the rants here almost exclusively aimed at Koreans? Why do people NOT start such threads? Why isn't there a thread about handshaking being a filthy practice and urging us to stop it? If a random Korean came on this board and posted such a thread, would our reaction be to agree and "stay on topic"? Or would we blast them with everything we have and list dozens of faults that Koreans make?

And finally, lets say there was a board called "Whitewithblack.org" or whatever and it was for white people who live in black communities and that the thread was dominated about people complaining about things that happen in black communities and that black people do. Would your reaction be "These are valid complaints and they are on topic. People here are trying to improve the community!" "I'm not hating on black people, I'm just complaining about the culture." "Why are you bringing up whites and Asians? The topic is black people! This is a board about living with black people!" I think most of us would have a very different reaction and while some might have valid complaints, I think at some point most would start to recognize that there were some issues. And NOT with the person challenging them on their rants and views.


Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2021, 03:29:15 pm »
Marty's been peddling the same excrement for years in his unequivocal defense of Korea's practices - going all the way back to when Dave's was a thing. He's got to be bored of posting this inane nonsense or there is just something wrong with him. I just pity him now that he has some mental deficiency that causes him to be constantly triggered to defend Korea after all his arguments have taking a beating.
Thank you for your review of my work.


  • Liechtenstein
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1560

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: POLL, South Korea's hygiene standards
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2021, 03:32:31 pm »
At best I would call Korea a somewhat developed nation.