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  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 4981

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
The bromance that wasn't
« on: May 22, 2021, 12:12:43 am »
Quote
North Koreaís arsenal of nuclear weapons and its stockpile of fuel have roughly doubled in the past four years, a steady rise that proceeded even as President Donald Trump held high-drama meetings with Kim Jong Un, the North Korean leader. The best unclassified estimates are that the North has at least 45 nuclear weapons, and appears headed to an arsenal roughly the size of Pakistanís, another nuclear state the United States once demanded must disarm, and now has all but given up that it ever will. For the North, that has always been a model to follow.

More evidence of trump's and his administration's incompetence. A know nothing who did nothing except try to win acceptance from the far right and white supremacists with his judicial appointments (using recommendations from the Federalist Society) and immigration crackdowns and from his corporate betters with regulatory rollbacks. Most of his policies were all smoke and mirrors.


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

    • 2400

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2021, 09:57:27 am »
And it was under Trump that Pakistan started and achieved its nuclear ambitions, right?  Are you actually trying to leave the fact North Korea is a nuclear power on Trumpís doorstep?  It wouldíve been more accurate to state North Korea able to attain nuclear weapons despite the efforts of successive U.S. administrations. 


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2021, 12:54:45 pm »
More evidence of trump's and his administration's incompetence. A know nothing who did nothing except try to win acceptance from the far right and white supremacists with his judicial appointments (using recommendations from the Federalist Society) and immigration crackdowns and from his corporate betters with regulatory rollbacks. Most of his policies were all smoke and mirrors.
Please tell me what Clinton would have done differently to prevent NK from increasing its stockpile?

Seems like NK would have the same number of nukes now, regardless. At least Trump got some kind of jaw-jaw going.


  • Adel
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1327

    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
    • The Abyss
    more
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2021, 01:36:59 pm »
Please tell me what Clinton would have done differently to prevent NK from increasing its stockpile?

Seems like NK would have the same number of nukes now, regardless. At least Trump go
t some kind of jaw-jaw going.

Do you still think Trump should have received a Noble Peace prize for his efforts? :laugh:


  • SPQR
  • Expert Waygook

    • 905

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Sierra Leone
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2021, 08:21:09 am »
North Korea will never, ever give up it's nuclear deterrent.  People who
think otherwise are deluding themselves.  The best diplomats and
politicians on earth could not change this, let alone an incompetent,
narcissistic buffoon like Trump.

Sanctions and condemnation accompanied China's nuclear deterrent
program in the 1960's. These eventually fizzled out as China became
a de facto nuclear power. The same will happen for North Korea.

I actually don't blame NK one bit for taking this path. The "God Bless
America, kill the Reds" mentality in the states is destabilizing, dangerous
and nationalistic.


  • pkjh
  • The Legend

    • 2139

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
    • Asia
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2021, 04:22:19 pm »
Please tell me what Clinton would have done differently to prevent NK from increasing its stockpile?
You do realize Clinton was pretty close to bombing the Yongbyon reactor. Even Koreans here were panicked, and there was a run on non-perishable foods like rice, and ramyeon. But, Carter rushing over to NK, threw a wrench into the bombing plan.


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2021, 08:21:17 am »
You do realize Clinton was pretty close to bombing the Yongbyon reactor. Even Koreans here were panicked, and there was a run on non-perishable foods like rice, and ramyeon. But, Carter rushing over to NK, threw a wrench into the bombing plan.
Do you think the world would've been better off it Yongbyon had been bombed?

Churchill famously was for invading the Soviet Union and preemptively putting an end to the possibility of it becoming a world superpower. Who knows how history would have turned out if that had actually happened. Would the Cold War have been averted? Would China have remained communist? Would the world have been a better place?

Similarly, who knows what North Korea may end up doing. Would risking conflict with China be worth pulling North Korea's teeth?


  • pkjh
  • The Legend

    • 2139

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
    • Asia
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2021, 09:52:19 am »
Do you think the world would've been better off it Yongbyon had been bombed?
Yes, I do think the world would've been better off. Probably would have triggered a short war, and the collapse of NK. A united Korea would've recovered, the economic chaos of a war then would have been a lot easier to handle then if it were to happen now. China was nowhere near as aggressive then as now too, and would've accepted a democratic Korean peninsula.


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2021, 11:39:58 am »
Do you still think Trump should have received a Noble Peace prize for his efforts? :laugh:
1) No
2) What does that have to do with the fact that Trump performed the same as the preceding 3 presidents?
3) An open nuclear Korea with nuclear weapons is preferable to a closed North Korea with nuclear weapons.


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2021, 11:43:05 am »
Why do you feel the need to bring up Clinton in trying to excuse your man trump's failings?

"At least Trump got some kind of jaw-jaw going."

What trump got was played--from beginning to end.
By your "logic" every preceding administration was played as well.

If you're going to criticize Trump on this, you have to provide some reasoning that a different President would have been able to prevent that outcome.

At least Trump did try something different. And his premise of "An open NK with nukes is preferable to a closed NK with nukes" is not wholly unsound.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2866

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2021, 11:55:26 am »
1) No
2) What does that have to do with the fact that Trump performed the same as the preceding 3 presidents?
3) An open nuclear Korea with nuclear weapons is preferable to a closed North Korea with nuclear weapons.

Performed the same?

He saluted a general of an enemy army.  He shut down US-ROK war games, er, exercises, thus lowering US preparedness and weakening the US position in the whole theatre. 

But worst, he emboldened a ruthless dictator, strengthening the government's position at home and abroad.  Their human rights abuses ignored, they were surely confirmed in their position, so doubtless thousands died as a result.

NK is no more open now than it ever has been.  Who do you think you're fooling?


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2021, 12:09:02 pm »
Performed the same?

He saluted a general of an enemy army. 
And all through the Cold War we'd meet with Khruschev and Brezhnev and Gorbachev.
BFD.

Quote
He shut down US-ROK war games, er, exercises, thus lowering US preparedness and weakening the US position in the whole theatre.
He also got NK to desist in further nuclear and ballistic missile tests once he started diplomatic efforts. By your "logic" he therefore decreased NK's military preparedness.

Of course you couldn't even stop for two seconds to take your point to its "logical" conclusion and consider how it applies both ways.

Quote
But worst, he emboldened a ruthless dictator, strengthening the government's position at home and abroad.
How was Kim "emboldened"? Please be specific. You don't think Kim was emboldened by all his previous tests and increasing his stockpile while nothing happened under previous regimes? You don't think Kim would have been emboldened as Hillary loudly condemned North Korea and did...nothing while he increased his stockpile?

The problem is that North Korea pretty much holds all the cards and that means no matter who sits at the table, they're going to have a tough time.

Quote
Their human rights abuses ignored, they were surely confirmed in their position, so doubtless thousands died as a result.
Again, how would this not have happened under any other regime? It happened under all the previous regimes, regardless of party, so why is Trump uniquely to blame here or how was he any worse?

I mean, it's basically the same as the Iran deal, only you reverse the people complaining about things. There's no consistency to any argument, just reflexive hatred.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2866

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2021, 12:26:48 pm »
And all through the Cold War we'd meet with Khruschev and Brezhnev and Gorbachev.
BFD.


Salute!  Not meet with, SALUTE.

If Obama had done that, Fox News and your collective conservative heads would have exploded into a fine mist.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2866

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2021, 12:30:06 pm »

He also got NK to desist in further nuclear and ballistic missile tests once he started diplomatic efforts. By your "logic" he therefore decreased NK's military preparedness.

North Korea, however, has continued to test short- and medium-range missiles, and could in the near future abandon a moratorium on nuclear and long-range ballistic missile tests it has maintained since November 2017, the report said, citing concerns by experts.
Pyongyang has also "largely ignored" Seoul's calls for cooperation and cut all overt inter-Korean communication channels since early 2019, it said.
-https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210520004800325

Not ever right, are you?


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2021, 12:41:38 pm »
Salute!  Not meet with, SALUTE.

If Obama had done that, Fox News and your collective conservative heads would have exploded into a fine mist.
Yeah they would have. So what?

What exactly did this salute do or not do? Substantively, not some vague thing you can't point to having any concrete results.

Remember, as someone who mocked RW criticism of Benghazi, Emails, Tan Suit, and Soros, these lines of attack don't work.

Your problem is you look st the person first, then decide if you like them, then based on that you declare them right or wrong and retroactively search for reasons.

On the other hand I try, and many times unsuccessfully, to look at the act first, then try to imagine either my side or the side I oppose doing it or something similar (depending on the situation) and based on that try to judge them consistently.

Credit Trump for not doing the same thing as the previous two administrations did- Trying the same thing, expecting a different result, and failing. At least he tried something different hoping for a different result and failed.


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2021, 12:47:03 pm »
North Korea, however, has continued to test short- and medium-range missiles, and could in the near future abandon a moratorium on nuclear and long-range ballistic missile tests it has maintained since November 2017, the report said, citing concerns by experts.
Pyongyang has also "largely ignored" Seoul's calls for cooperation and cut all overt inter-Korean communication channels since early 2019, it said.
-https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210520004800325

Not ever right, are you?
What do you expect them to test NOTHING? And its not short-range and medium-range missiles we're particularly worried about.

As far as "could resume", well that would be up to the current regime, yes? That statement would be a truism under any regime either previous or current. Again, by your "logic" Russia COULD restart nuclear tests and militarize space, therefore its Biden's fault. Do you actually think you just made a point?

Quote
Pyongyang has also "largely ignored" Seoul's calls for cooperation and cut all overt inter-Korean communication channels since early 2019, it said.
-https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20210520004800325
Trump is not the leader of South Korea and this is a reaction to South Korea's domestic politics, not to the Trump administration.

Anyways, the diplomatic process is going to steps forward and steps back. It won't be perfect. There will be points of contention.

In fact, its a GOOD thing there are various trip ups and walk aways by both parties. It's a good sign they are both genuinely committed to this. If there wasn't much bargaining or protesting or threatening for maximum leverage, that would be a bad sign.

You've lived in Korea, whos negotiating style was fundamentally more in line with Korean culture- Obama/Bush or Trump? At least he didn't make the demand of "Lose face (and give up your only protection against being Ghaddafi'd) before you even get to negotiate with us" which the previous two administrations did. At least Trump understood that just smiling and playing nice isn't going to get you the best deal or taken seriously while at the same time loudly thumping that you're American and therefore right, won't get it done either.

Seriously, you want a foreign policy blunder that was a disaster for North Korea policy? Try us sitting back and doing nothing while Ghaddafi, who agreed to give up his WMDs and support the War on Terror, was overrun, tortured, sodomized, and then executed while we did nothing to stop it. That didn't happen under Trump, but it had massive ramifications.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 01:11:42 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2866

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2021, 01:18:22 pm »
What do you expect them to test NOTHING?
Based on your statement "He also got NK to desist in further nuclear and ballistic missile tests", yes.



Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2021, 01:37:42 pm »
Based on your statement "He also got NK to desist in further nuclear and ballistic missile tests", yes.
Yes, nuclear and ballistic missiles. I'm sorry I didn't qualify that with "Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles."

We already know North Korea has glorified SCUDs. They've had them for decades. That's not what we're worried about.

But yes, North Korea will continue to do tests of various things even if it pauses nuclear and ICBM tests.


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2711

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2021, 01:40:13 pm »
the true bromance that wasn't is always in the comments
more gg more skill


Re: The bromance that wasn't
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2021, 07:18:53 pm »
Yes, I do think the world would've been better off. Probably would have triggered a short war, and the collapse of NK. A united Korea would've recovered, the economic chaos of a war then would have been a lot easier to handle then if it were to happen now. China was nowhere near as aggressive then as now too, and would've accepted a democratic Korean peninsula.
In some alternate universe, Neil DeGrasse Tyson just went back in time to shake Kim Jong Il's hand and send him to oblivion while he returns to his lab and looks at his pocket watch and says "Time will tell...time will tell."