Some samples of apartments in China.

Some samples of apartments in China.

Outside Shenzhen, many deal can be had.  Decent enough places.  Not the newest, not the dumpiest either.  Better than some foreigner apartments here.  Free apartments or apartment allowance jobs.  Also notice the cheap living costs like utilities.  Get more than 20,000 rmb salary with apartment and more than 25,000 rmb with no apartment and no allowance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJDHD3pgQI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq-sbMxZx1c

Seems paying for apartments in Tier 2 or most places are 400 US or 2500 RMB aprox.  Get low 20's salary 3000 rmb allowance for apartment.  (Or get higher pay too.) 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeuRPl8Dhgw

Hangook, thank you for posting this.
What a discrepancy between China and Korea.
Many of us have gotten used to our shoebox apartments here, and its obvious that one can live better over there.

I don't think I can live in China, as I've been there several times and find the country "rough" to say the least, but I can see the appeal, and I might try a year there if they would release the Canadians they are holding in prison right now on bogus charges.

Forget the haters on here...many have Stockholm syndrome from living in Korea for so long.

Hangook, thank you for posting this.
What a discrepancy between China and Korea.
Many of us have gotten used to our shoebox apartments here, and its obvious that one can live better over there.

I don't think I can live in China, as I've been there several times and find the country "rough" to say the least, but I can see the appeal, and I might try a year there if they would release the Canadians they are holding in prison right now on bogus charges.

Forget the haters on here...many have Stockholm syndrome from living in Korea for so long.

I don't think anyone is disputing that China offers better pay and living housing conditions.

I think people's issue with China boils down to two major things
1) Air pollution that makes Korea look like a paradise
2) The Chinese government.

Also, I find it amusing that people who flip their lid over a sign-in sheet are touting the perks of CHINA.

Just waiting for 6 guys to come and flame and troll me for sharing useful apartment info in China for no particular logical or sane reason.  Anyways, here's the info. 

"need a light?"

i think it's cool that ESL is booming in china. i hope it opens up the country to, well, being more open about things (freedom 'murica yee'haw).

one of those apartments looking out over the city reminds me of my friends apartment that was on the coast and looked out over the ocean. absolute killer view. his apartment was a bit bigger and newer than mine too (way higher utility fee for some reason though).

Absolutely agree.
I also think that hangook77 is posting some good stuff for people who are interested in heading over to China. Just not my cup of tea for past stated reasons.

Yeah exactly.  I have no problem with folks not wanting to go.  Just no need to flame me for showing what's out there.  I have a still okay set up for now here.  But I see the writing on the wall for me personally.  Rising living costs and salaries, even mine, not rising over time.  Still better than average but honestly, in inflationary terms I am starting to lose ground compared to my purchasing power that I had years ago on a much lower salary.  So, I may have to consider the jump myself.  I research the hell out of things before I jump in.  I choose to share the benefits of my research with others.

"need a light?"

NNNNNEEEERRRRRDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!

Hangook, thank you for posting this.
What a discrepancy between China and Korea.
Many of us have gotten used to our shoebox apartments here, and its obvious that one can live better over there.

I don't think I can live in China, as I've been there several times and find the country "rough" to say the least, but I can see the appeal, and I might try a year there if they would release the Canadians they are holding in prison right now on bogus charges.

Forget the haters on here...many have Stockholm syndrome from living in Korea for so long.

Thanks for the feedback.  I understand the worry about the Canadians.  Sadly, I don't think they are released until the executive in Canada is.  But ESL teachers aren't targets.  Rich Chinese want foreigners for their kids and there would be a mass exit if they started arresting esl teachers.  A Canadian teacher was arrested for being on the wrong visa at the time.   They might have jailed her for a day or two and then deported her.  You have to go on the legal Z visa just like you have to be on a legal E2 here or another visa for another type of school.  Korea has also held and deported for not being on the right type of visa.  Some BC teachers in an international school were on E2s but were suppose to be on another and the Korean government kicked them out too.  Sad the foreign teachers have to pay when it is the schools that should.  But that is for another topic.  That said, I completely respect the ethical angle and desire to boycott if that is your route. 

"need a light?"

i think it's cool that ESL is booming in china. i hope it opens up the country to, well, being more open about things (freedom 'murica yee'haw).

one of those apartments looking out over the city reminds me of my friends apartment that was on the coast and looked out over the ocean. absolute killer view. his apartment was a bit bigger and newer than mine too (way higher utility fee for some reason though).

I assume you don't want China to be another 'merica. 

Anyhow, some folks get lucky and get a nice apartment.  When I took the provided apartments they were always shoeboxes with problems.  I usually took the money and got my own.  Only downside is having to pay deposits myself to get something decent.  Some newer places are really nice, but the deposits and rents are rising for those even out here in the provinces. 

But ESL teachers aren't targets.  Rich Chinese want foreigners for their kids and there would be a mass exit if they started arresting esl teachers.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-education-idUSKCN1V2233

just some food for thought (thats a sc1 cheat code). article from 2009. thought i'd save some people a click and posted the most interesting parts. other parts were about people in trouble for drug use/random testing/random apartment searches

"Switzerland-based Education First (EF), which runs 300 schools across 50 Chinese cities, has seen a “significant” increase in detentions in China for alleged offences including drugs, fighting and cybersecurity violations, according to a June 27 internal notice sent to employees and seen by Reuters.

It said EF staff had been “picked up by police at their home and work as well as in bars and nightclubs and have been questioned and brought in for drug testing”. The notice said the school had also received warnings from embassies about the rise in arrests."
...

"Last September, China launched a wide-reaching campaign to remove foreign influences from education, including efforts to ban foreign history courses, outlaw self-taught material and revise textbooks to focus on core Communist Party ideology.

The ongoing effort, which includes follow-up checks and random inspections at schools, is designed to promote “patriotism” and “core socialist values”, reflecting a “love for the motherland”, China’s education ministry said at the time."
...

"“When (schools) get a lot of applications they feel they are in a commanding position,” said Pang, whose firm has handled dozens of labor arbitrations between teachers and schools in recent months.

Emily, a 25-year old English teacher from the U.S. state of Utah, said a school in the southwestern Chinese city of Chengdu held her passport for 10 weeks in late 2018, refusing to hand it back until she threatened to call police.

“There was always an excuse, like registering my dorm with police or some administration to transfer my visa ... at one point they just said they were keeping it safe,” she said, asking not to publish her full name or the name of the school because of an ongoing arbitration.

The Chengdu school did not respond to phone calls by Reuters. The HR employee who Emily said had held her passport confirmed she had worked at the school, but declined to comment on the case via a messaging app.

The school docked her 16,000 yuan ($2,269) monthly salary by 1,200 yuan for an unexpected “agency” fee, according to documents provided to her by the school before and after her arrival.

Lawyers say the practice is not unusual, and arbitration typically costs more than the withheld wages.

“What has changed is that many government officials think that kicking out Western influences like English teachers is doing the Party’s work, and the schools are taking advantage of it” said Harris, the Seattle lawyer, who now advises against foreigners teaching in China. “The risks of going to China to teach far outweigh the rewards.”"

I assume you don't want China to be another 'merica.

no, in some ways i definitely want china to be more like 'murica. specifically freedom of information type stuff

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-education-idUSKCN1V2233

just some food for thought (thats a sc1 cheat code). article from 2009. thought i'd save some people a click and posted the most interesting parts. other parts were about people in trouble for drug use/random testing/random apartment searches

"Switzerland-based Education First (EF), which runs 300 schools across 50 Chinese cities, has seen a “significant” increase in detentions in China for alleged offences including drugs, fighting and cybersecurity violations, according to a June 27 internal notice sent to employees and seen by Reuters.

It said EF staff had been “picked up by police at their home and work as well as in bars and nightclubs and have been questioned and brought in for drug testing”. The notice said the school had also received warnings from embassies about the rise in arrests."
...

"Last September, China launched a wide-reaching campaign to remove foreign influences from education, including efforts to ban foreign history courses, outlaw self-taught material and revise textbooks to focus on core Communist Party ideology.

The ongoing effort, which includes follow-up checks and random inspections at schools, is designed to promote “patriotism” and “core socialist values”, reflecting a “love for the motherland”, China’s education ministry said at the time."
...

"“When (schools) get a lot of applications they feel they are in a commanding position,” said Pang, whose firm has handled dozens of labor arbitrations between teachers and schools in recent months.

Emily, a 25-year old English teacher from the U.S. state of Utah, said a school in the southwestern Chinese city of Chengdu held her passport for 10 weeks in late 2018, refusing to hand it back until she threatened to call police.

“There was always an excuse, like registering my dorm with police or some administration to transfer my visa ... at one point they just said they were keeping it safe,” she said, asking not to publish her full name or the name of the school because of an ongoing arbitration.

The Chengdu school did not respond to phone calls by Reuters. The HR employee who Emily said had held her passport confirmed she had worked at the school, but declined to comment on the case via a messaging app.

The school docked her 16,000 yuan ($2,269) monthly salary by 1,200 yuan for an unexpected “agency” fee, according to documents provided to her by the school before and after her arrival.

Lawyers say the practice is not unusual, and arbitration typically costs more than the withheld wages.

“What has changed is that many government officials think that kicking out Western influences like English teachers is doing the Party’s work, and the schools are taking advantage of it” said Harris, the Seattle lawyer, who now advises against foreigners teaching in China. “The risks of going to China to teach far outweigh the rewards.”"
no, in some ways i definitely want china to be more like 'murica. specifically freedom of information type stuff

Sounds like Korea was until a few years ago.  You gotta have a backbone, do some research, know what to expect, and have a backbone.  No one's keeping my passport.  Police are called right away.  (Girl in article eventually did this.)  I think China, like Korea in the 80's or 90's attracted a lot of creepy characters, back then.  Heck a bunch of waygooks here were rounded up in 2005 or so and deported becasue they were on illegal visas and with fake diplomas.  (I rememebed reading the story after my grandma sent it to me when I was planning to come over.  I told her I would get a legal visa or not come over.  I wouldn't end up like them.  She was worried at the time.) 

I can't even begin to tell you about the meetings new teachers on a new E2 had to attend 10 years ago where they were lectured and told a bunch of racist nonsense.  I never went as I kept the same employer.  A friend showed me a video of it.  Craziness.  This country here was rife with open xenophobia until not too long ago.  The labor board also ruled in favor of Korean employers because you were the foreign devil.  Korea has changed a lot in that regard and that doesn't happen anymore. 

Anyways, ebbs and flows.  You got paid a lot more in inflationary terms though you did have to put up with more (in someways).  Though this stuff never affected me personally.

Best advice I have for anyone who does go over to China, don't get comfortable with the extra money in your pocket and spend hard.  Keep a frugal lifestyle and send most of your money home for at least a couple of years.  Build up some savings and leave that be or have that as your investing money or whatever.  Don't get lulled in by the big city lights and try to put down roots.  You can after 3 or 4 years.  There are still risks like a government not renewing a visa after a few years or something.  Downside of China.  But make your money and send it all out so you can live later.  I don't think it is a long term destination even though I am all for going eventually.     

Those apartments are not that special. Outside of major cities, an apartment of a similar size in Korea would be around 500k a month with a 10 million deposit.

Those apartments are not that special. Outside of major cities, an apartment of a similar size in Korea would be around 500k a month with a 10 million deposit.

I was about to say, those look a lot like my first non school provided apartment, and yeah, 500k/m with 10mill down is *exactly* what I paid for it.

They might be nothing special, but man, they are sooooooooooooooooo much better than your standard EPIK of hagwon provided housing.

*****If you're planning on staying in Korea for more than 2 years, find a nice place to live yourself: the quality of life upgrade is immense.*****

I was about to say, those look a lot like my first non school provided apartment, and yeah, 500k/m with 10mill down is *exactly* what I paid for it.

They might be nothing special, but man, they are sooooooooooooooooo much better than your standard EPIK of hagwon provided housing.

*****If you're planning on staying in Korea for more than 2 years, find a nice place to live yourself: the quality of life upgrade is immense.*****

Yes, same here.  I spend the same amount to get an apartment like this.  But a school provided apartment in Korea is rarely this nice.  On rare occasion a school may get you a nice place, but it is rare.  So, the school provided apartment or the place they let you get with an allowance (with no large key deposit) seems nicer than what you are provided for here.  On the other hand half the jobs are in the Seoul Gyeonggi area so the apartments there will cost you much more than 10 million deposit and 500 thousand won a month unless you want to get a small one room. 

So, on comparison, it seems the Chinese apartments are nicer, with better pay, and a cheaper living cost.  China is a large market and can absorb English teachers for years to come without being flooded or crowded with too many teachers. 

China is a large market and can absorb English teachers for years to come without being flooded or crowded with too many teachers.

I would like to comment on this. While what you say logistically is true and the average Chinese parent wants to have their kid fluent in English and pay big money for it, the government not so much. When I left there in 2019, Zhengzhou, the city I lived in was short of 3,000 English Teachers and the schools and colleges were begging the local authorities to give work permits for more teachers and were met with a brick wall. They were so frustrated. Some government official just decided he didn't like foreigners and that was it, game over.

The local authorities are so corrupt and they just want to enrich themselves at the cost of all, so I am guessing the schools and colleges weren't lining his pockets enough.

China is a large market and can absorb English teachers for years to come without being flooded or crowded with too many teachers.

I would like to comment on this. While what you say logistically is true and the average Chinese parent wants to have their kid fluent in English and pay big money for it, the government not so much. When I left there in 2019, Zhengzhou, the city I lived in was short of 3,000 English Teachers and the schools and colleges were begging the local authorities to give work permits for more teachers and were met with a brick wall. They were so frustrated. Some government official just decided he didn't like foreigners and that was it, game over.

The local authorities are so corrupt and they just want to enrich themselves at the cost of all, so I am guessing the schools and colleges weren't lining his pockets enough.

Makes sense.  Lots of Korean officials back in the day didn't like foreigners and would decide at the local level to follow their own interpretation of the rules.  Shitty for them.  Fortunately, lots of other places in China still hiring and folks rotate their jobs every couple of years like they do here.  Hopefully, that asshat bigot moves on soon.  Korea had so many of them back in the day.  WHo was that President who got elected in 2002 over pushing anti Americanism?  Around same time, redone "Surfing USA" song done to "****** USA".  Psy got busted for nasty remarks he said around this era years later.  Attack Americans, kill their families, etc.  Gusts of popular feeling blog dictate how racist folks were here too.  China is bound to have some anti western bigots.  I suspect as teachers demand grows, these officials will be more and more over ruled.  I do remember I lived in a rural town happy to get a foreigner after struggling to get one.  But another small town had all the bigots who didn't want foreigners.  The Koreans there even told them they didn't need foreigners to teach English and that they were only because the national government forced them to have them but didn't want them there locally.  I did an overnight camp with them (my ed office lent me to them for a few days) and what a difference between their office and mine.  They pulled their crap on me and I pushed back.  Then sup there told me about respect for your seniors bla bla bla.  I had only been in Korea a few weeks.  I told him: "You have to give respect to get respect".  I think he stood there stunned at the time.  Ha ha.  Oddly enough that ajossi supervisor came to like me later on and I transferred to another town and I worked with him on some extra teaching tasks for some extra money.  I came to like him.  He gave some of the other foreigners a hard time, but he never did to me later on.  So, good experience.  But it does show how messed up Korea was at one time. This is a totally different country during the last several years.  The risk taking you use to take here I guess you take in China.  More risks, more rewards, all that. 

Unfortunately, the big difference between Korea and China is that in China, the anti-Westerner sentiment is codified in the system of government. It is official government policy to reduce Western influence whenever possible. While the demand for English teachers may be high, and may continue to rise, the government will do what it can to ensure that they cause as little cultural pollution as possible.
Travel restrictions, lack of economic freedom, constant 'random' legal harassment will continue to be policy rather than the actions of a few racist individuals.
China is a beautiful country, and there is a lot to experience there, but one should absolutely go forward there with one's eyes open.
My understanding is that most people won't find trouble there, but for those that do, it'll be worse on them than it would be over here in Korea.

"More risk, more reward" might not be a bad way of looking at it.

Unfortunately, the big difference between Korea and China is that in China, the anti-Westerner sentiment is codified in the system of government. It is official government policy to reduce Western influence whenever possible. While the demand for English teachers may be high, and may continue to rise, the government will do what it can to ensure that they cause as little cultural pollution as possible.
Travel restrictions, lack of economic freedom, constant 'random' legal harassment will continue to be policy rather than the actions of a few racist individuals.
China is a beautiful country, and there is a lot to experience there, but one should absolutely go forward there with one's eyes open.
My understanding is that most people won't find trouble there, but for those that do, it'll be worse on them than it would be over here in Korea.

"More risk, more reward" might not be a bad way of looking at it.

Yeah, for sure.  Good advice.  Korea has changed a lot in the past decade or so.  I guess Korea had shades of the risk when I was first looking to come over.  Hakwons could screw you.  Some owners could be friends with mobsters or something or be a delinquent paying his gambling debts etc.  Could be a different kind of danger if you aren't paid and get pushy about it.  Some Korean guys apparently would try to fight you in the streets in the 90s if they saw you with a Korean woman.  Racist cops would take their side because they were Korean.  Foreign women working in a hakwon arguing with male owner getting slapped in the face for speaking back to a man.  Foreign woman living alone in a villa and a break in and raped.  Korean cops would do nothing about it and tell her to leave Korea.  Deliberately bungle the rape kit if they even had one.  They would blame her for it anyways.  Korea wasn't so bright not that long ago.  It has only become this safe risk free place the last few years, hence I assume a different type of teaching coming here too.  Less of a risk taker. 

Korea much more of a risk when I came over.  Roll of the dice whether you got a good job or a bad one.  Law didn't always take your side either.  Lots of racism you had to put up with too.  Anyhow, China is like Korea use to be. 

If I go myself soon, I would go to work and send as much home as I could for a couple of years and probably avoid foreign hotspots.  I would focus on money to build as much so I could leave or if a local official didn't renew the visa, then no problem.  I did what I went to do.  I wouldn't spend too much money becoming invested like I did in Korea (in the beginning).  IE  Maybe take a school with a dorm and get everything paid for.  Get a 23 to 25 thousand k rmb salary.  Send home like 17k cause I was living so cheap.  (17k almost 3 million won now.)  Then in the summer for 2 months if paid peanuts, I'd be in Canada or the US anyhow and spend some savings a little but most not touch.  Withdraw some of it via UnionPay card from Canada.  I'd negotiate at least 5000 rmb for two months and maybe 25,000 rmb for the other 10.  Get free utilities and room and meals.  So no expenses.  I would go to make most money and get out.  Or maybe move to a place with an apartment and a life after that within China.  As long as I have some cash in Canadian bank account before that then I've got something no matter what. 

Everyone will have a different plan.  But I'd say don't blow the extra cash you have in your pocket.  Live cheaply and send most of it home. 

Dem risk and danger times in the rough-and-ready Korea of 2005. Back then you were moving to an industrialized country in the OECD and didn't know what the hell you were getting into.

People would point and stare, and there were bad bosses that would rip-off workers which is unheard of in Des Moines, IA

bad bosses that would rip-off workers which is unheard of in Des Moines, IA

You sure about that?

Samples vs. Examples.

As an English language teacher, the difference is significant.

Give me a sample and I will TAKE IT.