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Banning Menthol Cigarettes
« on: May 01, 2021, 01:46:47 pm »
Not a fan of the banning of menthols. People are trying to decriminalize drugs. This just creates a new problem.

Rest was generic stuff. Nothing big either way.


MOD NOTE: I was asked to split an existing thread and give the vaguely off-topic discussion of "whether or not criminalizing menthol cigarettes was warranted" its own separate discussion. So here it is!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:18:45 am by Kyndo »


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2021, 07:32:07 pm »
Not a fan of the banning of menthols.

But you were fine with Trump trying to destroy democracy, and you spread his BS lies about the election being "stolen." And you defended all the other crap that Trump did. Naturally you pick something really dumb and inoccuous to complain about Biden. What's next, whining about dijon mustard and tan suits again?


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 01:30:31 am »
But you were fine with Trump trying to destroy democracy, and you spread his BS lies about the election being "stolen." And you defended all the other crap that Trump did. Naturally you pick something really dumb and inoccuous to complain about Biden. What's next, whining about dijon mustard and tan suits again?
Your hallucination about Trump and me has been noted.

If you think criminalizing menthol cigs is trivial, you have no idea what you're talking about. There are 20 million menthol smokers in the U.S., predominantly African-American, and physically addicted to them. And you want to criminalize that addiction?

Are you fine with cops using "I smell menthol" to search and bust people?


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 04:34:12 am »
Your hallucination about Trump and me has been noted.

If you think criminalizing menthol cigs is trivial, you have no idea what you're talking about. There are 20 million menthol smokers in the U.S., predominantly African-American, and physically addicted to them. And you want to criminalize that addiction?

Are you fine with cops using "I smell menthol" to search and bust people?
Get your facts straight:
"The Food and Drug Administration on Thursday announced its long-awaited plan to ban the last flavor still allowed in cigarettes — menthol — and also said it would ban all flavors of mass-produced cigars, which are popular among youths. The ban would apply only to sales, manufacturing and imports — not personal possession."

"The menthol flavor, the agency says, makes it easier for those trying their first cigarette to become addicted and then tougher to quit. The current annual death toll from smoking-related diseases in the United States stands at about 480,000, with Black Americans disproportionately affected.

Since the 1950s, menthol cigarettes have been aggressively marketed to Black smokers in the United States. Roughly 85 percent of Black smokers now use Newport, Kool and other menthol products, according to the F.D.A."

They can quit or switch, assuming they're not Tareyton smokers who would rather fight than switch.

God to see the FDA doing its job, protecting the health of American citizens.


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 06:12:41 pm »
Get your facts straight:
"The Food and Drug Administration on Thursday announced its long-awaited plan to ban the last flavor still allowed in cigarettes — menthol — and also said it would ban all flavors of mass-produced cigars, which are popular among youths. The ban would apply only to sales, manufacturing and imports — not personal possession."

"The menthol flavor, the agency says, makes it easier for those trying their first cigarette to become addicted and then tougher to quit. The current annual death toll from smoking-related diseases in the United States stands at about 480,000, with Black Americans disproportionately affected.

Since the 1950s, menthol cigarettes have been aggressively marketed to Black smokers in the United States. Roughly 85 percent of Black smokers now use Newport, Kool and other menthol products, according to the F.D.A."

They can quit or switch, assuming they're not Tareyton smokers who would rather fight than switch.

God to see the FDA doing its job, protecting the health of American citizens.
You make something illegal that people like, you are going to get people that will produce and distribute that product.

How many before it gets counted as distribution? 100 cigarettes? 50? 20?

People smoke menthols because they like the flavor, not because of some marketing scheme. But hey, thanks for the subtle racism that black people don't choose, they're just sheep.

This isn't about health. This is about some people wanting to control others. They have this inability to live and let live because they are inherently selfish.


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2021, 10:03:09 pm »
You make something illegal that people like, you are going to get people that will produce and distribute that product.

How many before it gets counted as distribution? 100 cigarettes? 50? 20?

People smoke menthols because they like the flavor, not because of some marketing scheme. But hey, thanks for the subtle racism that black people don't choose, they're just sheep.

This isn't about health. This is about some people wanting to control others. They have this inability to live and let live because they are inherently selfish.

It us all about marketing, particularly to non-smokers (read THE YOUNG).


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2021, 02:13:58 pm »
It us all about marketing, particularly to non-smokers (read THE YOUNG).
What marketing? The non-existent ads for cigarettes on TV and the internet? Where is this tobacco marketing and how is it reaching young people? Unless ads for Kools and Newports are popping up on TikTok, Instagram, Youtube and such, I don't really see where these kids are getting marketed to.

This sounds like something people who still see ads in magazines would think. Meaning the old and out of touch. "I saw an ad for Virginia Slims in that issue of Reader's Digest. They're trying to target our kids!" Given how flimsy that connection is, I really think it's just about some people wanting to control others.

The only "marketing" that gets people to smoke Newports is it being name-dropped by rappers or someone posting themselves smoking or some standup comic talking about how they love Kools. If we're going to ban that, then I suppose we'd have to ban every rap song which talks about guns, cocaine, weed, and a host of other things, which basically means ban every rap song ever.


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 04:00:13 pm »
What marketing? The non-existent ads for cigarettes on TV and the internet? Where is this tobacco marketing and how is it reaching young people? Unless ads for Kools and Newports are popping up on TikTok, Instagram, Youtube and such, I don't really see where these kids are getting marketed to.

This sounds like something people who still see ads in magazines would think. Meaning the old and out of touch. "I saw an ad for Virginia Slims in that issue of Reader's Digest. They're trying to target our kids!" Given how flimsy that connection is, I really think it's just about some people wanting to control others.

The only "marketing" that gets people to smoke Newports is it being name-dropped by rappers or someone posting themselves smoking or some standup comic talking about how they love Kools. If we're going to ban that, then I suppose we'd have to ban every rap song which talks about guns, cocaine, weed, and a host of other things, which basically means ban every rap song ever.

Cigarette companies spend about 8.4 billion USD per year on advertising in the US alone.
This includes point of sales, magazines, event sponsoring (which directly market towards youths) etc etc.

The tobacco industry has targeted African American communities in its advertisements and promotional efforts for menthol cigarettes. Ethnic specific marketing strats include:

-Campaigns that use urban culture and language to promote menthol cigarettes
 -Tobacco-sponsored hip-hop bar nights with samples of specialty menthol cigarettes
 -Targeted direct-mail promotions

Tobacco companies’ marketing to Asian Americans has included:7,8
 -Sponsorship of Chinese and Vietnamese New Year festivals and other activities related to Asian/Pacific American Heritage Month
 -Heavy billboard and in-store advertisements in predominantly urban Asian American communities
 -Financial and in-kind contributions to community organizations
 -Support of Asian American business associations

source


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 04:59:24 pm »
-Tobacco-sponsored hip-hop bar nights with samples of specialty menthol cigarettes
How is this marketing to kids? The kids in the bar ordering a gin and tonic?

Quote
-Targeted direct-mail promotions
Something the kids of today are racing to as soon as they get home- The mailbox. Quick, I have to see if there is a letter for me! Maybe my battery-powered propeller beanie finally arrived! That'd be swell!

Quote
-Sponsorship of Chinese and Vietnamese New Year festivals and other activities related to Asian/Pacific American Heritage Month
Uh okay. Like, any examples of this advertising?

Quote
-Heavy billboard and in-store advertisements in predominantly urban Asian American communities
They still allow billboards? Okay, then ban the billboards like they banned everything else.

Quote
-Financial and in-kind contributions to community organizations
What does this mean? Is the local United Way handing out knit Newport hats to kids?

Quote
-Support of Asian American business associations
You mean they support the thousands of Asian-American owned liquor stores across America? How nefarious of them. Imagine that, a tobacco company sending promotional items and sponsoring liquor stores? Next thing you'll be telling me is that Nebraska corn supports movie theaters or that Texaco supports Arab-American business associations (as in gas stations).

Sorry, but this list of alleged attempts to manipulate the youth comes across as pretty lame and again, seems directly targeted at a demo that is most likely to think it is true because they won't think critically about it.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 05:54:29 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 05:53:21 pm »
I bolded the relevant bit. Sneak y, right? :laugh:



What marketing?
Cigarette companies spend about 8.4 billion USD per year on advertising in the US alone.
That's a mind blowingly huge budget. If that were a countries' GDP, it would be ranked at number 141.
Gotta keep recruiting them new customers: the nicotine and its enhancing chemicals will take care of the return business, right?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 10:30:34 am by Kyndo »


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 06:03:52 pm »
Do they offer any examples of these events and what that advertising consisted of?
Not in the articles I looked at, but considering the source, I don't doubt that it's accurate. Why not look it up? Might find some gnarly new concerts to check out!


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 06:14:02 pm »
Not in the articles I looked at, but considering the source, I don't doubt that it's accurate. Why not look it up? Might find some gnarly new concerts to check out!
Actually, I'd wager the source is full of shit and using incredibly loose criteria. They have a vested interest in making it look as scary as possible and little interest in presenting an accurate portrayal of the issue.

Sure enough:
Quote
Scientific evidence shows that tobacco company advertising and promotion influences young people to start using tobacco.5

Adolescents who are exposed to cigarette advertising often find the ads appealing.
Tobacco ads make smoking appear to be appealing, which can increase adolescents’ desire to smoke.
This isn't advertising specifically targeted at adolescents. It never claims that. it simply says that adolescents find it appealing. Well, no shit they do. When you're and adolescent you're going to find adult things and things marketed towards adults appealing. That's the whole point of adolescence. "You mean 16 year olds find fast cars and hot women appealing in advertising? OMG stop the presses." That's the point of advertising.

Or is it to say "Hey, don't buy our product it sucks, and you might get hurt or killed using it. That and you'll have some lame times and no sex."

How dare the tobacco companies have a vibe of young, active, and youthful...just like 80% of other products that get advertised outside of Big pharma stuff and life insurance"

Do you see how hollow and vapid that statement is, yet how it's worded to make it appear like something sinister is happening?

Quote
The three most heavily advertised brands—Marlboro, Newport, and Camel—were the preferred brands of cigarettes smoked by middle school and high school students in 2016.5
Again, this is the kind of statement that looks sinister yet really doesn't mean anything. The reason they're the most preferred is due to their overall fame.

48.8% preferred AK-47s
16.6% preferred M-16s
13.3% preferred Uzis

Conclusion, this must be because Kalashnikov is deliberately advertising towards kids!

48.8% preferred Riley Reid
16.6% preferred Sasha Grey
13.3% preferred Elsa Jean

Conclusion: Porno companies are targeting Middle Schoolers!

Do you see how preposterous and flimsy their conclusion is?

They also list "Women" as one of the groups targeted by advertisers.

Let me guess, if you get the full set of pamphlets the following people will have been "targeted"
Men
Women
Blacks
Whites
Asians
Latinos
Boomers
Gen X
Millennials
Gen Z
Rich
Poor
Middle-Class
College-grads
North Americans
Europeans
Africans
Asians
South Americans

At that point is this really "targeting" or is it, I don't know, general advertising and cigarettes being famous (notorious) means they're made aware to everyone? Or maybe they're just spraying and praying? Is there anything out there that looks like a direct appeal to adolescents?

Anyways do a google image search of "tobacco company event sponsoring" and well, the results are rather lackluster. I see a few posters that look like something from a No Limit Records album cover circa 1998 and that's about it.

======================================================================================

This is why we can't just see a government source and trust it.
And before the usual cast goes "DeMart thinks he knows more than doctors and government experts" I'd like to point out that this was once bandied about- "North Korea can destroy Seoul in a sea of fire by 100,000 artillery shells in 10 minutes" or whatever that nonsense claim was. I said that was a load of crap and explained why. People said "What, you know more than some general?" I said "Dude, it's his job to exaggerate threats. Anyone with a modicum of military knowledge and common sense knows it's a BS claim."

Sure enough, some article came out that basically debunked the entire thing by a credentialed military expert.

One of the most important skills is to be able to read stuff put out by "experts" and determine whether it is accurate or BS. The more outlandish the claim, the more likely it is to be BS. Also, the more vague their evidence, the more likely it is to be BS>

Same as the Russian facebook ad nonsense- Anyone with a functioning brain and knowledge of marketing and economics could take one look at that claim and laugh at it. However some people lack the critical thinking skills to be able to look at that and understand it. All they see is stuff like "$20 million spent." and "80 million impressions" and think because the numbers are big and round, they must have some sort of meaning.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 07:11:00 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 07:22:22 pm »
I bolded the relevant bit. Sneak y, right? :laugh:


Cigarette companies spend about 8.4 billion USD per year on advertising in the US alone.

That's a bind blowingly huge budget. If that were a countries' GDP, it would be ranked at number 141.
Gotta keep recruiting them new customers: the nicotine and its enhancing chemicals will take care of the return business, right?
Uhm, lets have a look at that.

First off...LOL @CDC for the scare tactics they put into this and their blatant misrepresentation. Given tobacco's ban on internet and TV advertising, it seemed improbable that billboard and magazine advertising would account for $9 billion. That didn't pass the smell test. Sure enough, when you read the full story....

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/tobacco_industry/marketing/index.htm
Quote
The following three categories totaled approximately $7.73 billion and accounted for 92.4% of all cigarette company marketing expenditures in 2018:
Price discounts paid to retailers and wholesalers to reduce the price of cigarettes to consumers— about $7.2 billion
Promotional allowances paid to cigarette retailers, such as payments for stocking, shelving, displaying, and merchandising particular brands—$180.3 million
Promotional allowances paid to cigarette wholesalers, such as payments for volume rebates, incentive payments, value-added services, and promotions—$337.5 millio

For a group going after the tobacco companies for lying and deception and trying to trick people, the CDC and the anti-tobacco groups sure are being deceptive and attempting to trick people.


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2021, 08:01:56 pm »

How many before it gets counted as distribution? 100 cigarettes? 50? 20?

That should be easy enough to look up for a former research assistant like yourself. Show a little self-reliance.

Why do conservatives argue that health measures that are in the public's welfare are about control while filling the airwaves with anti-abortion propaganda intent on controlling a woman's right to choose?

Why do you always bring up the chances that a new law will inspire illegal activity? Do you have personal experience with that?


Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2021, 09:10:01 pm »
Why do conservatives argue that health measures that are in the public's welfare are about control while filling the airwaves with anti-abortion propaganda intent on controlling a woman's right to choose?
Probably the same reason some anti-drug war liberals are okay with this- People are hypocrites.

Quote
Why do you always bring up the chances that a new law will inspire illegal activity? Do you have personal experience with that?
The fact that you think you're making a good point here is kind of funny.

Yes, when you make a new law that means you will have made something ILLEGAL. Which means you have to enforce it. Of course that question should be asked and the illegal activity point addressed. You can't just brush that aside.


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Re: Banning Menthol Cigarettes
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 07:13:25 am »
Actually, I'd wager the source is full of shit and using incredibly loose criteria. They have a vested interest in making it look as scary as possible and little interest in presenting an accurate portrayal of the issue.

You asked about whether or not cigarettes still market. I provided a link to show that they still do.
I agree that the term "marketing" is not the most well defined term, and that providing price cuts seems a little too far off in the gray areas to be considered real marketing, but I'm not an expert in the field, and don't really care enough to argue against it, so will just kind of nod and allow it.
  But even if we scrap that particular part of the budget, that's still 2 billion dollars a year in the US for selling a product. That's *still* an amazing amount of money. More than the GDP of Belize (which is a beautiful country, and on my travel bucket-list).


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Re: Re: America's waking up to Sleepy Joe
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 08:14:57 am »
But you were fine with Trump trying to destroy democracy, and you spread his BS lies about the election being "stolen." And you defended all the other crap that Trump did. Naturally you pick something really dumb and inoccuous to complain about Biden. What's next, whining about dijon mustard and tan suits again?
this isn't about Trump trying to destroy democracy and all that jazz, this is about the Biden administration intending to ban menthols (which isn't "dumb and innocuous", btw). A lot of people voted him in to do stuff like legalize (or at least decriminalize) marijuana. Even if you think that menthols deserve to get banned for whatever reason it's pretty significant that Biden's admin is doing the exact opposite of the sort of stuff we wanted it to do, lol.


God to see the FDA doing its job, protecting the health of American citizens.
not to go all basedcowboyshirt on you but if the FDA's job was to ban shit people regularly consume thats also killing them they'd start with McDonalds.

banning menthols isn't "protecting the health of american citizens" its just making it more expensive and obnoxious to get menthols. also, the entire point of america is that we have the freedom to do what's bad for us. if people want to smoke menthols that's their choice and i dont see why the government gets to step in and try to forcibly make them stop.


Why do conservatives argue that health measures that are in the public's welfare are about control while filling the airwaves with anti-abortion propaganda intent on controlling a woman's right to choose?
this isn't about conservatives and abortion, this is about the biden administration intending to ban menthols. as you so succintly put it in the post directly following this one:
Start your own thread instead of derailing this one.


This includes point of sales, magazines, event sponsoring (which directly market towards youths) etc etc.
I read the entire CDC page you linked. Nowhere does it say "event sponsoring (which directly markets towards youth)" unless there's a sub-page or something I didn't click on, so I honestly have no idea where you're getting this from.

What your source does say in the section specifically about marketing towards youth is

Youth and Young Adults

Scientific evidence shows that tobacco company advertising and promotion influences young people to start using tobacco.5

    Adolescents who are exposed to cigarette advertising often find the ads appealing.
    Tobacco ads make smoking appear to be appealing, which can increase adolescents’ desire to smoke.

The three most heavily advertised brands—Marlboro, Newport, and Camel—were the preferred brands of cigarettes smoked by middle school and high school students in 2016.5
...and then goes on to list the most popular brands with middle schoolers/high schoolers.
anyways, even the CDC makes no claim that tobacco companies "directly market" to youths, through events or otherwise - if that was the case, I'm pretty sure that'd be relevant enough to put under the "Youth and Young Adults" subheader.

and honestly putting the whole bit about "adolescents often find the ads appealing" is pretty bs in of itself. id be willing to bet that adolescents probably find bud light ads appealing, but you don't see those banned from the super bowl half-time show or whatever.

anyways not trying to nitpick or anything but i genuinely don't see the bolded bit reflected in your source.


Re: Banning Menthol Cigarettes
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 11:25:16 am »
You asked about whether or not cigarettes still market. I provided a link to show that they still do.
I agree that the term "marketing" is not the most well defined term, and that providing price cuts seems a little too far off in the gray areas to be considered real marketing, but I'm not an expert in the field, and don't really care enough to argue against it, so will just kind of nod and allow it.
  But even if we scrap that particular part of the budget, that's still 2 billion dollars a year in the US for selling a product. That's *still* an amazing amount of money. More than the GDP of Belize (which is a beautiful country, and on my travel bucket-list).
You asked about whether or not cigarettes still market. I provided a link to show that they still do.
I agree that the term "marketing" is not the most well defined term, and that providing price cuts seems a little too far off in the gray areas to be considered real marketing, but I'm not an expert in the field, and don't really care enough to argue against it, so will just kind of nod and allow it.
  But even if we scrap that particular part of the budget, that's still 2 billion dollars a year in the US for selling a product. That's *still* an amazing amount of money. More than the GDP of Belize (which is a beautiful country, and on my travel bucket-list).
I asked where the marketing towards kids was. I still haven't seen any evidence of it. I have seen evidence that the CDC appears to be deliberately engaging in deceptive reporting themselves on this issue.

As for the remaining 2 billion, except for the other two things, it was all unspecified. One of those at 337 million was for wholesalers.

There just isn't enough there to support the claim that tobacco companies are deliberately targeting adolescents.

Also notice they lump together "Youth and Young adults" which allows them to take advertising directed at one group "young adults" and surreptitiously make you think it is used towards kids.

The entire thing is a case study in deception, propaganda, and how stuff written by "experts" is used to trick people. It also shows why you CANNOT give implicit trust to any source. The CDC has zero credibility when it comes to the advertising claims it is making about tobacco.


Re: Banning Menthol Cigarettes
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 02:57:21 pm »
The UK along with the rest of the EU banned menthol cigarettes last year.  But as far as I am aware you can still buy menthol filter tips in the UK, provided they're not sold in the same package as the tobacco.  So if you want that awful minty taste and not the delicious taste of tobacco, roll your own ;)

Maybe we can start a side hustle importing menthol filter tips into the US if it's not a thing there.


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Re: Banning Menthol Cigarettes
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2021, 05:21:19 am »
The UK along with the rest of the EU banned menthol cigarettes last year.  But as far as I am aware you can still buy menthol filter tips in the UK, provided they're not sold in the same package as the tobacco.  So if you want that awful minty taste and not the delicious taste of tobacco, roll your own ;)

Maybe we can start a side hustle importing menthol filter tips into the US if it's not a thing there.

This ^^

Menthol cigarettes are banned but you can buy empty rolled papers with menthol filters which are intended for non-tobacco products. Same as water bongs were that were sold everywhere but not for cannabis when it was illegal.

You can’t ban a piece of paper with some menthol in it.