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  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 2650

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • Seogwipo, Jeju Island
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Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2021, 09:21:11 pm »
I'm sorry Mr. Language-Conservative, but I'm on the cutting edge of language.
:)

I recall my high school teacher ranting about the misuse of "'impact'.

"It's a noun, not a verb!!!" he would insist.

Flash forward a few decades and PBS is doing a show on 7 Ways Hamilton has Impacted America.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2866

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2021, 12:07:21 am »
:)

I recall my high school teacher ranting about the misuse of "'impact'.

"It's a noun, not a verb!!!" he would insist.

Flash forward a few decades and PBS is doing a show on 7 Ways Hamilton has Impacted America.

But "impact" has been a verb since the seventeenth century.  Just because your teacher was ill-informed does not mean that language doesn't have guidelines and we can use words however we want.  Obviously there are geniuses who can bend words to their will but "it's" meaning "it is" and "its" as a possessive are just simply hard and fast.  And there is a lot of this, so don't go poo-pooing rules.  Their useful.


  • KimDuHan
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1445

    • January 15, 2015, 11:48:59 am
    • Seoul
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2021, 01:59:35 am »
The snare trap:

Work 9am-5pm OR 3pm-9pm.

I knew a guy who accepted one of these and ended up working 9 to 9 with gap hours inbetween. Hell.

Split shifts were common for awhile. Working 7:00 am to 9:00 am and then 4:00pm to 10:00 pm was a common one among people I knew. Teaching adults of course with all materials expected to be ready and be prepared on your own time.

They were always and I mean always tired. The pay was around 3 million won. They would literally nap during the day 2-3 hours.

Letís say that after a few months at the academy a majority of the teachers midnight ran!

Working 12 hour shifts for 3.5-4.0 mil is good depending on the work and environment.


Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2021, 10:22:20 am »
If you look at this post, they really donít make that much more considering the amount of hours they have to work and also housing is not included.
Evens taking the 4.0 mill salary and dividing it by 4(weekly) then by 5(daily) then by 12(hourly) it works out to be just a little over 16,000 won an hour.

Also, itís a factory job with probably difficult standing on you feet all day conditions, with mind numbingly boring plastic garbage sorting routine with almost no breaks.

Though I agree that this is probably a huge improvement with regards to pay and conditions from years ago, and this would be a dream job for most if not all 3rd world country migrant workers from Southeast Asia looking to escape poverty and support their families back home....

However, I donít think that Western teachers who are university educated should be aiming for this lower level quality work.

When it comes to Hagwons, they need to up their pay for their teachers from 2.1 to 3.1 with housing and benefits on top of that. It should be 4.0 mill plus benefits for POLY School teachers as they teach 9 to 10 classes per day !!!
(Iíve been on a few Reddit forums and read through 2 pinned message on there where years later former Korean students who moved overseas with their families for high school etc look back and realized the value of their education from Nets, and one even apologized for the difficulties foreign teachers have to endure from bosses with regards to pay and benefits and he or she also wrote Ďplease understand their disability to not understand í.... Then I suddenly got it.... these Korean hagwan owners really donít understand the value of their staff ... if only there was a way to form a global union with all of the 7 countries and get everyone to keep rejecting 2.1 mill jobs, then the hagwon owners would realize the value of teachers more... but sadly youngsters will keep falling into the 2.1 mill a month trap :()
 The factory workers here have been complaining and protesting their rights for years, and taking their concerns to the media, so things are changing for them.

On another note, within the public schools they are now really treating their native teachers as Ďassistantsí and only paying them for the 4~5 hours worked plus the desk warming. (Also in general, government workers in Korea receive less as a trade off for more job stability). Even though the Native Teachers donít get as much job security, they still profited in COVID times when their pay was not reduced for the 2 months they Ďworkedí from home at the beginning of 2020, while Hagwons were cutting pay by half or even 70%. It would be nice if  the Government removed the barrier to pay rises after 1+ level teachers who are on an F series visas and want to continue teaching and contributing to Korea in the long term, by allowing them to take workshops or some test that will allow their pay to raise every year similar to Korean teachers.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 10:36:13 am by Yana201 »


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

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Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2021, 08:48:56 pm »
As long as an ESLer can love what they do and bank a thousand dollars a month easily, with a four thousand plus airfare year-end payment, 2.0-2.4 will be the standard.

Those of us who renew get a 100,000 won boost, as per standard practice. I have gotten such at every job except on Jeju when I reached 2.6 they said 2.65 is the most they could renew and so I did, staying at that hagwon for 7 years before returning to the mainland.


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4057

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2021, 11:23:52 pm »
You can't save 1000 dollars a month on a 2 million won salary.  Plus most hakwons don't offer return flight or round trip airfare anymore.  Taxes deducted are higher and living costs are much much more than before. 

What is 1000 dollars? 1.1 or 1.2 million won?  You have to make 2.5 or 2.6 minimum to possibly save that being reasonably frugal.  Also since return flights are no longer paid, you have to take 1.2 or 1.3 million out of your 2 million won or whatever severance pay at the end of the year.  A 2 or 2.1 million salary allows for 500 to 600 thousand won monthly savings 450 to 550 dollars.  1300 or 1400 dollars in savings was possible on this salary 12 or 13 years ago.  Even 1500 depending on how frugal you wanted to be.  Filling your water at school eating ramen mini stop hamburger etc.  Gross.


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4057

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2021, 11:30:10 pm »
If you look at this post, they really donít make that much more considering the amount of hours they have to work and also housing is not included.
Evens taking the 4.0 mill salary and dividing it by 4(weekly) then by 5(daily) then by 12(hourly) it works out to be just a little over 16,000 won an hour.

Also, itís a factory job with probably difficult standing on you feet all day conditions, with mind numbingly boring plastic garbage sorting routine with almost no breaks.

Though I agree that this is probably a huge improvement with regards to pay and conditions from years ago, and this would be a dream job for most if not all 3rd world country migrant workers from Southeast Asia looking to escape poverty and support their families back home....

However, I donít think that Western teachers who are university educated should be aiming for this lower level quality work.

When it comes to Hagwons, they need to up their pay for their teachers from 2.1 to 3.1 with housing and benefits on top of that. It should be 4.0 mill plus benefits for POLY School teachers as they teach 9 to 10 classes per day !!!
(Iíve been on a few Reddit forums and read through 2 pinned message on there where years later former Korean students who moved overseas with their families for high school etc look back and realized the value of their education from Nets, and one even apologized for the difficulties foreign teachers have to endure from bosses with regards to pay and benefits and he or she also wrote Ďplease understand their disability to not understand í.... Then I suddenly got it.... these Korean hagwan owners really donít understand the value of their staff ... if only there was a way to form a global union with all of the 7 countries and get everyone to keep rejecting 2.1 mill jobs, then the hagwon owners would realize the value of teachers more... but sadly youngsters will keep falling into the 2.1 mill a month trap :()
 The factory workers here have been complaining and protesting their rights for years, and taking their concerns to the media, so things are changing for them.

On another note, within the public schools they are now really treating their native teachers as Ďassistantsí and only paying them for the 4~5 hours worked plus the desk warming. (Also in general, government workers in Korea receive less as a trade off for more job stability). Even though the Native Teachers donít get as much job security, they still profited in COVID times when their pay was not reduced for the 2 months they Ďworkedí from home at the beginning of 2020, while Hagwons were cutting pay by half or even 70%. It would be nice if  the Government removed the barrier to pay rises after 1+ level teachers who are on an F series visas and want to continue teaching and contributing to Korea in the long term, by allowing them to take workshops or some test that will allow their pay to raise every year similar to Korean teachers.

No one is asking for 4 million for English teachers but the same pay 12 or 13 years ago was equal to making in the low 3s million in todays money.  So, upping the salaries to upper 2s even would be less than the past with inflation but would be a good start.  Ideally 2.8 to 3.2 million won would still not be too high.  This is not unreasonable though. 

As for the 4 million won salaries, lots of Chinese teaching jobs are paying this and more.  3 to 5 million ranges.  Many with free housing and flight reimbursement.  You just have to sift out the low hanging underpaying fruit like EF chain.  They are notorius for paying low in China.  Do 5 minutes of reaearch and search the job board on Daves ESL cafe.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 4981

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2021, 02:41:00 am »
If you look at this post, they really donít make that much more considering the amount of hours they have to work and also housing is not included.

Is this like the saying that considering they don't work and have no rent to pay, the homeless don't make that much less?


Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2021, 05:49:21 am »
I thought you guys were all going to get jobs as scooter delivery drivers, now you all want to be factory workers?


Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2021, 07:50:34 am »
Is this like the saying that considering they don't work and have no rent to pay, the homeless don't make that much less?

Oh no, I didnít mean to say it like that.
I just meant that the salary looks really high on paper, but when you break it down, and consider their working conditions (itís a big improvement for factory workerís pay), but itís actually modest and fair pay for the hours, and conditions that they have to work in........ If they worked 22 hours and also sat around desk warming at their factories and also made 3.5 ~ 4.0 mill then that would be incredibly unfair and disrespectful to the teachers, who are educated individuals from highly developed countries coming in to build up capacities this countryís future leaders in an in demand global language/ necessary skill for their future success.

(At the end of the day the factory workers are unskilled laborers, while ESL teachers are skilled workers, and sadly the pay conditions for ESL, especially in the Hagwon industry need to start reflecting that!!!)

What the ESL industry needs to do here is up the salary and also up their selection standards for more qualified/ dedicated teachers.

Since China is the next super power on the rise, hopefully instead of K-dramas .... C- dramas will be the next big thing and with competitive competitive wages, all the newbies will go there. Korea will realize its competition and up the salaries!


« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 07:58:11 am by Yana201 »


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 4981

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2021, 08:14:22 am »

What the ESL industry needs to do here is up the salary and also up their selection standards for more qualified/ dedicated teachers.

The selection standards have gone up, but sadly the pay is the same or worse.


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 2650

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • Seogwipo, Jeju Island
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Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2021, 08:33:47 am »
Korea pays more than most countries in the ESL industry.

Even more so once you factor in the free rent and end-of-contract bonus.

I never got the whining.


Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2021, 08:43:33 am »
Korea pays more than most countries in the ESL industry.

Even more so once you factor in the free rent and end-of-contract bonus.

I never got the whining.


Yes, Korea still pays better but, there is a lack of fairness in the ESL industry compared to all the other industries....

If the pay has risen from 1.6 mill to 3.0 mill or more for 3 rd world Country workers , than the same should  apply to the ESL industry .... Hagwons use to pay 2.1 ~ 2.6  13 years ago, so they should start paying from 3.1 ~ 3.6 now.

New Korean Public school teachersí  pay scale gets a 100,000 increase per year... so the public schools should start hiring NETs from at least 2.8 ~ 3.1 starting salaries .  Even  the  bus driverís salaries increased from 2.1 to 3.1 from 10 years ago.... it is only natural that the salaries rise with inflation. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 08:52:28 am by Yana201 »


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

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Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2021, 10:23:42 am »
Should?

In a free market economy, what matters is what people are willing to bear.

The fact that thousands of university grads from English-speaking countries are willing to accept 2.2-2.4 million won jobs shows the supply outstrips the demand.

In contrast, in 2006 the public schools suddenly hired a ton of native speakers nationwide and I parlayed that into a 2.6 mill Monday to Thursday position, 3pm to 7pm, at a small town elite hagwon (only two foreign teachers in hagwons in Hadong that year). I understandably worked there for 3 years before jumping to Jeju (the only more tempting option).


Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2021, 11:18:58 am »
Should?

In a free market economy, what matters is what people are willing to bear.

The fact that thousands of university grads from English-speaking countries are willing to accept 2.2-2.4 million won jobs shows the supply outstrips the demand.

In contrast, in 2006 the public schools suddenly hired a ton of native speakers nationwide and I parlayed that into a 2.6 mill Monday to Thursday position, 3pm to 7pm, at a small town elite hagwon (only two foreign teachers in hagwons in Hadong that year). I understandably worked there for 3 years before jumping to Jeju (the only more tempting option).

I should have added on to my reply earlier ... that recent college grads should be updated on how 2.1 ~2.4 salaries are not so hot anymore and they should not accept them. If thousands of teachers start turning down these salaries the free market will end up adjusting the salaries  according.

I think I mentioned this in the earlier post....that the unskilled workers have done protests and were featured in media and so the government put pressure to improve their conditions.... while young naive nets are still fooled by the recruiters with Ďhot salaryí and enjoy your year abroad !!!


I wish there was a way to have a union for incoming ESL teachers from the 7 countries, where they all could put pressure on SK government (and the Hagwons) to up the wages.  When voices are heard, change happens. I think the problems with ESL in Korea is that itís so temporary for the majority.

In a way the stagnant ESL salary problem is similar to the rising tuition for university students (but in the opposite way). Being a university student is so temporary that once the 4 years are done the graduates no longer care about whatís happening there. However, in one Canadian province of Quebec, students held demonstrations and strongly opposed tuition cost, so tuition for residents in Quebec is like half the price compared to all other Canadian cities.)


While the salaries are still not terrible at any moment ... ESL is becoming more like a very comfortable internship position.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 11:33:23 am by Yana201 »


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 2650

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
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Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2021, 06:11:31 pm »
Nice.points.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4498

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2021, 06:33:09 am »
(At the end of the day the factory workers are unskilled laborers, while ESL teachers are skilled workers, and sadly the pay conditions for ESL, especially in the Hagwon industry need to start reflecting that!!!)

Define "skill"


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

    • 2400

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2021, 07:53:36 am »
I should have added on to my reply earlier ... that recent college grads should be updated on how 2.1 ~2.4 salaries are not so hot anymore and they should not accept them. If thousands of teachers start turning down these salaries the free market will end up adjusting the salaries  according.

I think I mentioned this in the earlier post....that the unskilled workers have done protests and were featured in media and so the government put pressure to improve their conditions.... while young naive nets are still fooled by the recruiters with Ďhot salaryí and enjoy your year abroad !!!


I wish there was a way to have a union for incoming ESL teachers from the 7 countries, where they all could put pressure on SK government (and the Hagwons) to up the wages.  When voices are heard, change happens. I think the problems with ESL in Korea is that itís so temporary for the majority.

In a way the stagnant ESL salary problem is similar to the rising tuition for university students (but in the opposite way). Being a university student is so temporary that once the 4 years are done the graduates no longer care about whatís happening there. However, in one Canadian province of Quebec, students held demonstrations and strongly opposed tuition cost, so tuition for residents in Quebec is like half the price compared to all other Canadian cities.)


While the salaries are still not terrible at any moment ... ESL is becoming more like a very comfortable internship position.



You mention the free market taking care of salaries after you've imposed some restrictions, so NOT free market.  Younger teachers are not going to start turning down these positions because it's not in your best interests for them to take them.  People have different priorities and as long as these younger people have crunched the numbers and decided it's worthwhile the salaries will remain low.  It's naive to think otherwise in the current conditions.  And the the current conditions include a low barrier to entry.  It's that simple.  There is no incentive for a hakwan owner to pay more for a more experienced teacher because moms will happily send their kids to a school with a smiling energetic 24 year old who is here for an adventure.  That's the free market at work.  I wish people would turn down these low paying jobs in such significant numbers that it would force schools to up the pay, but so far that isn't happening.  Unless the attitudes of Korean parents change, or the government makes it more difficult for just anybody with a uni degree to come teach, all the griping in the world won't change a thing.  It needs to be harder to come and teach here, but I'm guessing the hakwan association is a powerful lobbyist. 

By the way, why does waygook always redline naive?  Is there an American spelling I don't know about?


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4057

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2021, 08:01:00 am »

Yes, Korea still pays better but, there is a lack of fairness in the ESL industry compared to all the other industries....

If the pay has risen from 1.6 mill to 3.0 mill or more for 3 rd world Country workers , than the same should  apply to the ESL industry .... Hagwons use to pay 2.1 ~ 2.6  13 years ago, so they should start paying from 3.1 ~ 3.6 now.

New Korean Public school teachersí  pay scale gets a 100,000 increase per year... so the public schools should start hiring NETs from at least 2.8 ~ 3.1 starting salaries .  Even  the  bus driverís salaries increased from 2.1 to 3.1 from 10 years ago.... it is only natural that the salaries rise with inflation. 

Korea pays better than other ESL countries?  Are you a secret recruiter?  No, it doesn't.  Vietnam pays the same but with a much cheaper living cost.  The Middle East pays more though they require more from you.  China is kicking Korea's ass in the pay department.  3 to 5 million won a month there nowadays.


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4057

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Entry level factory job 3.5-4.0M/month
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2021, 08:05:03 am »
Honestly, the apologists who are so whipped here that they will defend every bad practice are a real head scratcher.

As for the free market, go to China and make a lot more money than here.  But either way, using that as an excuse to justify low wages and be happy about it is pathetic.