Read 3166 times

  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 2294

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2021, 03:11:50 pm »
The provincial exam system (standardized test system) is flawed, but I worry that the alternative is also pretty bad. How can the school system remain both objective, and be consistent from school to school to school without standardized tests?
I think I may spend a bit of time looking at the scandanavian models, and how they tackled those issues, as they've ditched the standardized test system decades ago and still have a very globally competitive education system.


Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2021, 05:02:23 pm »
I'm curious how you view the concept of a standardized college entrance exam, something that is or has been used by virtually every country on the planet, as some sort of indicator of Korean incompetence towards problem-solving.

1 - My gripe is against the Suneung. Standardised testing is critical in education and, like everything, can be done well or poorly/Suneung.

2 - You Matric (final year of HS) marks (made up of your exam marks and assessments throughout the year) are what get you into university in SA. Depending on what you wish to study (Architecture for example), you might have to provide a portfolio as well. Extra curricular activities help too.

Again, just so we're clear. Standardised testing is fine when necessary and done properly, not the way Korea does it, which is archaic, illogical and ridiculous.


Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2021, 05:36:57 pm »
1 - My gripe is against the Suneung. Standardised testing is critical in education and, like everything, can be done well or poorly/Suneung.

2 - You Matric (final year of HS) marks (made up of your exam marks and assessments throughout the year) are what get you into university in SA. Depending on what you wish to study (Architecture for example), you might have to provide a portfolio as well. Extra curricular activities help too.

Again, just so we're clear. Standardised testing is fine when necessary and done properly, not the way Korea does it, which is archaic, illogical and ridiculous.
Fair enough. Nothing is above reform.


  • njarlson
  • Adventurer

    • 36

    • March 02, 2021, 07:33:45 am
    • South Korea
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2021, 08:46:28 am »

Now for Korean Teachers, they feel the same way, especially the younger ones who just came out of teacher's college
and landed their first school position in a rural elementary school.  These guys/girls in their early 20s do not look like the type
of people that want to live and work out here anyways.  They definitely prefer to work in Seoul, Suwon, Yongin, etc.    All the
young female teachers I have met over the decade have ALL left our school after 2 years.  I wondered why.  This year, I was speaking
to 3 first year korean teachers (females) and I found out that for Korean teachers, after they work 2 years in the public school, they
are now free to choose/apply where they want to work.  I guess the first time, there's no choice.  They have to go where they are assigned.
But after 2 years, they can all choose where they want to go.  Last year 2 more of our female teachers that finished serving 2 years left
and they each went to Suwon and Yongin.   This year the new first year teachers told me they are going to leave too after 2 years.


I've noticed this with the young teachers as well. All of the older teachers that are married with kids seem perfectly content to stay at their small schools for 5 years, but the young teachers want to move on as soon as they can. I guess it isn't all that surprising, I mean how many mid-20 guys and gals can you think of that would prefer to live in the middle of nowhere than in a city with a bunch of their friends or people their age? Maybe some would, but I'd dare to guess that most would choose the city. My two schools are in a pretty good area luckily; although it's rural, they're sandwiched between two proper Gyeonggi cities and about 25 minutes from the edge of Seoul. I'm pretty sure every single employee commutes 25-40 minutes each way from one of these areas to avoid living in the middle of nowhere surrounded by a bunch of farms (I do as well), so I've noticed that most teachers here tend to stay their full 5 years before leaving.
 
But even if they don't mind the area, there's also the different kinds of workloads at different sized schools. I hear my friends that work at public schools in Seoul talk about their coworkers and they seem to have so many employees for things my tiny schools could only dream of, multiple English/subject teachers, etc. Small schools usually don't have those extra employees, so the homeroom teachers end up having to take on a lot more work. They usually have to teach more since there aren't subject teachers to take over (English, PE, maybe science), and I noticed that they tend to have to handle more administrative/scheduling duties as well. When I talk with my coworkers, I swear during every conversation at least one bemoans how much they have to do because of how small the school is. I imagine this would make some teachers wish they were in a city at a bigger school where work could be divided between more people.

Overall though, it's still hard for me to wrap my head around Korea's system of moving teachers around every few years. Where I grew up, teachers applied to schools they wanted to teach at and if they liked it, they stayed. At my elementary school, almost all of the teachers stayed the same throughout all my time there and never switched what grades they taught unless they specifically requested it. Coming to Korea, it was so odd to me to find out that not only do they need to leave after a certain amount of time, but even during their time in the school they get their grades/subjects switched around every year. I suppose it's to let the teachers gain more experience through having to teach various subjects/ages and in different areas with different kinds of kids, and to keep them from becoming too stagnant or burnt out? Though when I was growing up, the best teachers were always the ones that had been teaching their subject/grade for a long time and after so long, knew best how to teach the material compared to newer teachers (but maybe I just lucked out and didn't get one of those awful jaded teachers you hear so much about). And then of course there's Korea's seniority culture. Whatever teacher has been there the longest has the most seniority/power/control over the other teachers, so maybe they get moved before they can get too high and have to start at the bottom again.


  • pkjh
  • The Legend

    • 2101

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
    • Asia
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2021, 10:04:32 am »
From what I've seen, and been told, elementary teachers are less willing to argue with the principal then middle/high school teachers. Most elementary teachers, like +95%, graduate from one of the National Education Universities, so conflict with an fellow alumni is a big no-no here. However, in middle/high schools a lot of teachers aren't education majors, or didn't start out as teachers (I'd guestimate 20%), and have actually spent time working other jobs, and are at times more willing to call out the principal, and vp. I've seen object throwing, and outright fist fights, at those teachers outings.


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7108

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2021, 10:44:57 am »
although it's rural, they're sandwiched between two proper Gyeonggi cities and about 25 minutes from the edge of Seoul.

Found the Siheung.
ETA 2day 4hour 45min to next reboot.
DO NOT UNPLUG


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7108

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 10:50:37 am »
Speaking of Siheung, I had a buddy who taught public there and he said the the MOE had the grand idea of having the teachers go over to a student's house for dinner once a week for a class. Meet the parents, talk English with the kid. Great idea, right? What could go wrong?

Well, the problem is, THEY'RE CHILDREN. You can't have an hour and a half conversation with a 9 year old in their barely developed second language. And there's no requirement for the parents to speak English. Some do, some don't.

So after asking the kid about how the food tastes (It's delicious) and asking about the colours in the room (the table is white).................. well............... ........

This program lasted 3 weeks before it was axed. NO ONE WANTED IT except for the ajeossi at the MOE who thought it would be a great idea.

With 5 or 10 teachers over 3 weeks, I imagine that SOME of the 15-30 dinners went okay, maybe the parent/s spoke English well, but I can only imagine how AWKWARD the most awkward ones were, holy shit. To be a fly on the wall in that dining room hahahahaha
ETA 2day 4hour 45min to next reboot.
DO NOT UNPLUG


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 2294

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2021, 10:54:38 am »
Totally agree.
Although, any sane NET would bring some kind of game or activities, or heck, a dinner lesson plan along with them to mitigate the inevitable horror of having to socialize with actual adults.


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

    • 2177

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2021, 11:05:42 am »
Found the Siheung.

I was wondering where he was working as well, but I didn't think Siheung.  It's really built up in some places and has a few subway lines running through it.  My first year of public school was Siheung and it definitely wasn't rural.  It was a dump, though.  There are some incredibly built up nice areas there these days. 


Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2021, 11:24:59 am »
This program lasted 3 weeks before it was axed. NO ONE WANTED IT except for the ajeossi at the MOE who thought it would be a great idea.

This right here is one of Korea's main problems.

Before his plan is put in motion a consultant with authority should be given the right to review his ideas and say
"You blockheaded doughnut, lay off the damn soju. This plan is madder than the snake that married the garden hose."
or... he should be fired for demonstrating a complete lack of competence for someone of his position.

Of course, these go against Confucianism, which is doing a brilliant job at making the modern world a better place.
Competence, nope. Age, yes.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6429

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2021, 11:28:41 am »
Quote
NO ONE WANTED IT except for the ajeossi at the MOE who thought it would be a great idea.

The parents sure as heck wanted it, at least initially. They want their kids to be good at English. I mean they signed up to have the NET come over and converse, no?

Once the person cutting my hair called her child over and told me to teach English. What could I say, sorry I canít I have an appointment; gotta leave now? I was trapped in the chair. The kid didnít want to talk to me, but was being forced by mom. So unpleasant and awkward. I made a mental note to avoid going back to that place.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6429

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2021, 11:38:36 am »
I donít mind chatting with with kids outside of school hours IF they want to chat with me (and even then I make it brief; ďleave the audience wanting moreĒ) ... however; if they donít want to converse and are only doing so because their mom is making them in hopes it will boost their English ... thatís not so fun.

Sometimes Korean adults schedule get togethers with Westerners for the unstated purpose of improving their kidís English. Ironically, unpleasant experiences with the language might make kids dislike learning English; it could hurt them in the long run.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6429

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2021, 11:43:34 am »
If a conversation is unpleasant for me and the kid ... well Iím not going to do it for free because thatís what the mom wants.

Iíve heard stories of Korean kids being dropped off where Westerners are.

Korean moms are really intense about English education. (Well, some of them are.)


  • njarlson
  • Adventurer

    • 36

    • March 02, 2021, 07:33:45 am
    • South Korea
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2021, 11:45:05 am »
Found the Siheung.

Moi? In Siheung? Not even close to there though that would be nice lol


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7108

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2021, 11:48:06 am »
Moi? In Siheung? Not even close to there though that would be nice lol

Thanks a lot.  >:(

Now I told my Siheung anecdote and started a new thread for NOTHING.
ETA 2day 4hour 45min to next reboot.
DO NOT UNPLUG


Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2021, 11:59:51 am »
With 5 or 10 teachers over 3 weeks, I imagine that SOME of the 15-30 dinners went okay, maybe the parent/s spoke English well, but I can only imagine how AWKWARD the most awkward ones were, holy shit. To be a fly on the wall in that dining room hahahahaha

You want awkward meals?

My first year in Korea I had no idea that "Have you eaten?" is just a greeting and not meant to be taken literally. I go to this business complex, in Seoul, to take my gaming laptop to the repair department. I'm explaining my issue to the techie, he takes my laptop and gets to work. The other guy asks "Have you eaten?" I'm a bit confused and my natural response was "no". He seems equally confused at my response, he hesitates for a minute and before you know it, I'm sitting in the company cafeteria, with a tray full of food, surrounded by a bunch of Korean guys in uniforms looking at me thinking "Who the f*ck is this guy?"



  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7108

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2021, 12:02:57 pm »
ETA 2day 4hour 45min to next reboot.
DO NOT UNPLUG


  • D.L.Orean
  • Super Waygook

    • 443

    • February 25, 2020, 09:34:41 am
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2021, 12:04:36 pm »
You want awkward meals?

My first year in Korea I had no idea that "Have you eaten?" is just a greeting and not meant to be taken literally. I go to this business complex, in Seoul, to take my gaming laptop to the repair department. I'm explaining my issue to the techie, he takes my laptop and gets to work. The other guy asks "Have you eaten?" I'm a bit confused and my natural response was "no". He seems equally confused at my response, he hesitates for a minute and before you know it, I'm sitting in the company cafeteria, with a tray full of food, surrounded by a bunch of Korean guys in uniforms looking at me thinking "Who the f*ck is this guy?"

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

We need more stories like this. There must be many similar stories from the people of Waygook.


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7108

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2021, 12:07:52 pm »
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

We need more stories like this. There must be many similar stories from the people of Waygook.

There's the classic

 :cheesy: "CO2, Do you like persimmons?"

 :police: "Uhh, yeah. They're okay."

 :cheesy: "Good! Gimme a sec!"

*Ajeossi leaves, comes back 30 secs later*

 :cheesy: "Here."

*hands me a bag of 12 persimmons*

 :huh:

 :cheesy: Enjoy! You said you liked them!

ETA 2day 4hour 45min to next reboot.
DO NOT UNPLUG


Re: Teacher Turnover Rate in Rural Public Schools
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2021, 07:48:45 pm »
Interesting topic! My 2 c:
I think that you're looking at this scenario from the wrong end. The problem that POEs have with very rural schools is not getting teachers to stay for more than a few years, but in getting them to go there at all. Teachers get all sorts of incentives working in rural schools, ranging from cash bonuses, to more points (which they use to calculate things like payscale, pension, seniority etc). For most young people, all these things aren't really enough to compensate for long commutes, lower level students, the social stigma of being a countryside teacher, and a complete and utter lack of things to do.
   That the POE is able to get teachers to stay for 2 years in many of these places was probably a huge victory, all things considered.
But they do! I think that, in this respect, the POEs treat us pretty similarly to new Korean teachers: we both have very little say where we originally start out (I remember having a choice of province, but not much else), but after the first year, we can always apply to transfer elsewhere (assuming our evaluation scores allow for it). That many teachers don't do this isn't really the fault of the POE: it's that most NETs are comfortable enough that they don't consider the processes of applying for a transfer to be worth the (very real) hassle.
IFrom what I've been told, there are 2 major reasons why public school employees are required to change every 4 or 5 years:
1) It prevents the formation of "old boy clubs". Like you say, having teachers and admin be temporary staff reduces the likelyhood of people taking advantage of the system to establish their own little fiefdoms. Also, if the school has an exceptionally bad employee, well, it'll only be for a few years, which mitigates the damage they can do to the school's reputation etc. Conversely, if there are some exceptionally good staff, well, the region benefits as they will work at many different schools during their career.
    The above is pretty similar to the reasons why RCMP officers get shuffled around every so often in Canada as well.

2) It helps undesireable areas get higher quality staff. Nobody wants to work on some remote island where the only available food is what can be dredged up from tidepools, and one has to learn to like the taste of coffee brewed in seawater. But teachers stuck there know that it'll only be for a few years, and that it will be good for their career due to the extra points it will earn them.

There are plenty of cons as well, which you've mentioned, but I think that the pros have been very carefully calculated to balance them out as best as is possible. I've had the very good fortune to work at private schools (for my main schools, anyway) where there is no turnover, and the sense of community is pretty awesome.
    On the other hand, my branch schools are all deep in the countryside (ie so far out that there are no bus routes servicing them), and the only reason they are able to function is that they get a constant influx of bright young teachers, many of them still determined to implement all the tricks and techniques they've been learning in grad class. While it can be exhausting trying to keep up and mesh with all the different teaching approaches, it *does* keeps the classes interesting, and I feel that it greatly benefits the kids.

Fair points.  I don't know where you got that information from or if you are just assuming but I'd sure love to talk with the Education Ministry people and have a full on meeting and discussion about things. 

It also sounds to me like a debate on "market economics".  Does market economics belong in education or not?  It sounds more like education runs a communist system where all advantages and surpluses are curtailed and skimmed off so that the other areas can receive the benefits and be distributed as equally as possible. 

Yes, it can definitely prevent as you said the dangers of "fiefdoms" or "old boys club" developing but that also creates an inverse adverse effect in that people no longer become invested members of the school or community or the students.  Everything is merely a number, a stat.  I'm here today and gone tomorrow and knowing this in foresight, creates a lack of "ownership".  I've often been very surprised at how cold and robotic relationships are and their behavior.  It's almost like they don't care really.  They are just doing it as a job and for their future security (as you say of getting points and reputation score).    I've seen past students return to visit their schools only to arrive with all their teachers gone lol.  At least I was still there and there was a sense of connection.

Also, with all this frequent turnover, you'll eventually hit a chemistry that ends up being one of the best, and ones that end up being absolute worst....so it seems the solution is, to prevent anything really bad from happening, let's prevent anything really good from happening.   They have decided to just play it down the middle as the most safe option rather than lean towards one side or the other.

I guess I always analogize things to sports (has always and still a passion of mine).  If you have a great team, a dynasty, the best GM, head coach, star players, role players, defense, goalie etc. and everything is going well, why break it up?  Why couldn't you keep a good thing going longer?   And if the situation is very bad and needs improving/change, then go ahead and makes some trades, adjust your personnel (management/player) and try to build a good team that can contend for championships for years to come.

Now I realize this is "public" school and not "private" so that's probably why they believe in a more communist approach of just evenly distributing talent/prestige/character/experience to the places nobody would normally go to.   But that's sort of how the world works.  You have certain institutions with a higher reputation than others.  Even communities have this.  There are communities that are known for being a more privilege (perhaps wealthier, more educated, distinguished members of society) and then you have communities that are in the middle class and communities that are poorer.  Why don't we evenly distribute all the money and resources to these things as well and rotate all the top highly reputable workers and put them in the dingy areas of the city to try and prop it up and make it more evenly balanced communities?    So I go back to market economics. 

So in the case o f my former school, evenly distributing whatever they wanted didn't really work.  This school still dwindled year after year and now has to be shutdown.  I feel like, if you're going to play by the rules and still be shut down, then in hindsight, what was the point?  Why not just go for it and be the very best you can be while you had the time to do it? 

Thanks for the replies.  A lot of this is just me venting and letting out some things I've wanted to get off my chest and wish I could have said to the people that mattered at the time.  I'm also a very sentimental person. I love things such as remembering history, the past, continuity, timelines, and stuff like that.  I've noticed in Korea, esp. in schools, they are not sentimental.  They graduate, people move on, and never have any care or thought about it after.   It's like they have this ability to just see each year as a single isolated unattached year EVERY year.  There is no continuity from the past year to this year.  Every year is a single stand-alone year of its own with no history of the past or promise of the future.  It's like they clean the slate after every single year is done.   That's hard for me to deal with as I like to see history and continuity and keep a record and timeline of things and recall/revisit the past while projecting and investing for the future.   These schools are completely absent of this concept.   I guess it's more of a western concept than it is here.