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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2021, 06:02:55 pm »
http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10

Have a look at the ALA Top 10 List to see who is really into "cancel culture" .


I'll post it because the usual suspects are too lazy to click on anything that isn't straight from Twitter or Breitbart:

Quote
The ALA Office for Intellectual Freedom tracked 377 challenges to library, school, and university materials and services in 2019. Of the 566 books that were targeted, here are the most challenged, along with the reasons cited for censoring the books:

    George by Alex Gino
    Reasons: challenged, banned, restricted, and hidden to avoid controversy; for LGBTQIA+ content and a transgender character; because schools and libraries should not “put books in a child’s hand that require discussion”; for sexual references; and for conflicting with a religious viewpoint and “traditional family structure”

    Beyond Magenta: Transgender Teens Speak Out by Susan Kuklin
    Reasons: challenged for LGBTQIA+ content, for “its effect on any young people who would read it,” and for concerns that it was sexually explicit and biased

    A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo by Jill Twiss, illustrated by EG Keller
    Reasons: Challenged and vandalized for LGBTQIA+ content and political viewpoints, for concerns that it is “designed to pollute the morals of its readers,” and for not including a content warning

    Sex is a Funny Word by Cory Silverberg, illustrated by Fiona Smyth
    Reasons: Challenged, banned, and relocated for LGBTQIA+ content; for discussing gender identity and sex education; and for concerns that the title and illustrations were “inappropriate”

    Prince & Knight by Daniel Haack, illustrated by Stevie Lewis
    Reasons: Challenged and restricted for featuring a gay marriage and LGBTQIA+ content; for being “a deliberate attempt to indoctrinate young children” with the potential to cause confusion, curiosity, and gender dysphoria; and for conflicting with a religious viewpoint

    I Am Jazz by Jessica Herthel and Jazz Jennings, illustrated by Shelagh McNicholas
    Reasons: Challenged and relocated for LGBTQIA+ content, for a transgender character, and for confronting a topic that is “sensitive, controversial, and politically charged”

    The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood
    Reasons: Banned and challenged for profanity and for “vulgarity and sexual overtones”

    Drama written and illustrated by Raina Telgemeier
    Reasons: Challenged for LGBTQIA+ content and for concerns that it goes against “family values/morals”

   Harry Potter series by J. K. Rowling
    Reasons: Banned and forbidden from discussion for referring to magic and witchcraft, for containing actual curses and spells, and for characters that use “nefarious means” to attain goals

    And Tango Makes Three by Peter Parnell and Justin Richardson illustrated by Henry Cole
    Reason: Challenged and relocated for LGBTQIA+ content

T_Rex and stoat in about 5 minutes: "won't anyone stand up to the SJW pro-witchcraft agenda?!"


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2021, 09:10:14 pm »
You know, the freeze peach advocates should be frothing at the mouth at the recent bill proposed by the UK government to jail "noisy" protesters for up to 10yrs.

But it wasn't done by SJWs...so, meh.

The 'freeze peach' thing makes me think of another book that sometimes got banned, Lewis Grizzard's "Don't Bend Over in the Garden, Granny, You Know Them Taters Got Eyes".

I knew Lewis, not like we were friends, and I taught the kids of that certain red-headed cheerleader.


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2021, 12:19:02 am »
“...actual curses and spells...”

Nice.


  • Kyndo
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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2021, 07:20:58 am »
First of all, the Romans weren't Christian until about the last 100 years of their empire after Constantine.
Absolutely. That's why I had them as a separate group along with the Huns (they weren't Christians either). Sorry for the confusion!

  Secondly, most of the invading hoards of barbarians eventually converted to Christianity because it was easier to rule their subjects including the Viking invaders a few centuries later.  Most of the bloodshed was done repelling Muslim invasions into Spain, France, and Italy (especially Sicilly).  Later some so called Christians decided to go after the Holy Land for revenge and launch the Crusades.  Was kind of dumb.
In my opinion "most of the bloodshed" is downplaying things just a tad.
    There definitely was some (relatively) peaceful proselytizing and conversion, that's certainly true. And you're 100% correct that many rulers found Christianity a useful tool to promote social cohesion. However, there's a reason why "faith by the sword" is a thing. The Crusaders (like you mentioned), the Conquistadors, the Inquisition, the Huguenots, the various reforms etc etc are all examples that come immediately to mind. All were bloody, and all were directed to religious and therefor cultural conversion.
If you'll pardon a somewhat overly broad generalization, I think that upheaval and disruption is more or less the norm for the religious conversion of a society. I use Christianity as an example not because it's the biggest offender in this regard, but because its history is the one I'm most familiar with.

but humanity did this shit throughout the centuries and millenia.
Well yes. That's exactly my point. Cancel culture, both overtly (stop practicing your cultural values or else we'll murder the bloody lot of you) and in its more subtle forms has been happens since the dawn of society, when one group of humans first noticed that another group had slightly different social values. It's inherent in human group dynamics.  :smiley:

So, you are going to quote history from hundreds of years ago or even a millenia ago to justify an opposite extreme today?  Yes, the Huns, the Muslim invaders, Berbery pirates, the Mongols, and numerous other empires and people groups of many different races and religions throughout the centuries did terrible things.  Let's in 2021 just cancel and kill everyone on earth.  Would that make you happy? 
Well, the Earth *is* currently severely over populated, and could use a few billion fewer people to muck things up, and.... uh, wait. No. That would not make me happy.
  And it's also not the point I was arguing.
   I gave those examples to illustrate that cancel culture is not something new. It's, in fact, ancient. I certainly wasn't making a value judgement: that's an entirely different conversation.

   To be 100% clear:  THAT'S NOT THE POINT I'M MAKING!


Which Christians in our or our parents lifetimes killed anyone or went to extreme?  I believe it was the same Christians who left their homes in search of religious tolerance.
Again, you're mistaking the point of my argument. I'm not saying that the over-coiffed housewifes of the 1980s went on homicidal rampages in order to suppress Twisted Sister record sales. I was pointing out that there were many very well organized campaigns against what the religious community perceived as immoral during that time. Those campaigns were prime examples of pre-internet cancel culture.  Again, I wasn't making value judgements or saying it was more violent than the present -- I was pointing out that it existed in the past and was quite pervasive, just as it it today.


TL;DR; Cancel culture is not a new thing. It existed a thousand years ago, it existed a hundred years ago, and it will exist in the future. While I agree that it has become quite visible due to the nature of today's social media, I don't think that it has become worse or more pervasive, and I don't believe that it will lead to some Orwellian dystopia.

   Obviously this is just my opinion, and I've explained why I think the way I do. I would be happy to read your opinions about why you think it is worse today than in the past, any why you think that trend will continue into the future.  :smiley:



Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2021, 11:03:03 am »
I'll post it because the usual suspects are too lazy to click on anything that isn't straight from Twitter or Breitbart:

T_Rex and stoat in about 5 minutes: "won't anyone stand up to the SJW pro-witchcraft agenda?!"
Agreed. Moral panic banning of all types is wrong and if you go behind the numbers, the left may be more high profile, but the right is still doing the bulk of it.


Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2021, 11:11:06 am »
Absolutely. That's why I had them as a separate group along with the Huns (they weren't Christians either).
    I think that upheaval and disruption is more or less the norm for the religious conversion of a society. I use Christianity as an example not because it's the biggest offender in this regard, but because its history is the one I'm most familiar with.
I know the Huns were Christianized at one point. I'm not sure when. Not that this really changes anything. Just a fun tidbit.

While there were a some missionaries and early believers killed in the early days (the norm for any pre-industrial society), Korea proves that you can have mass conversion and the growth of significant religious movements without societal upheaval and wars of religion. Something countries that are supposed to be "tolerant" haven't been able to handle.


  • Kyndo
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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2021, 11:21:58 am »
Didn't know that about the Huns, actually. Sounds like maybe interesting reading.

Yeah, the conversion of Korea to Christianity was relatively painless compared to a lot of other places.
Thinking about reasons why, I wonder if it might have something to do with the way in which religion played a part in Korean society: there was shamanism and Buddhism but insofar as I can tell, the local population wasn't terribly attached to either. I think the fact that Christianity was imported by foreigners was a bigger issue than the religion itself. Japan tortured, crucified, and beheaded missionaries because they already had a state religion that was being used by the upper class to manipulate society. Christianity was seen as intrinsically subversive to authority. Here the pushback was more because Christianity would open up Korea to more foreign influence.

   How effectively leadership is leveraging religion to keep its handle on power: I wonder if that's the most important criteria that would determine whether a county can peacefully transition from one religion to another or not?

Edit: It *is* interesting reading. Man, the Huns were all over the place when it came to religion. There's very little out there that at least some of them haven't prayed at!
Check out the wiki: it's super short and sweet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns#Religion
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 11:38:19 am by Kyndo »


  • hangook77
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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2021, 12:31:25 pm »
Absolutely. That's why I had them as a separate group along with the Huns (they weren't Christians either). Sorry for the confusion!
In my opinion "most of the bloodshed" is downplaying things just a tad.
    There definitely was some (relatively) peaceful proselytizing and conversion, that's certainly true. And you're 100% correct that many rulers found Christianity a useful tool to promote social cohesion. However, there's a reason why "faith by the sword" is a thing. The Crusaders (like you mentioned), the Conquistadors, the Inquisition, the Huguenots, the various reforms etc etc are all examples that come immediately to mind. All were bloody, and all were directed to religious and therefor cultural conversion.
If you'll pardon a somewhat overly broad generalization, I think that upheaval and disruption is more or less the norm for the religious conversion of a society. I use Christianity as an example not because it's the biggest offender in this regard, but because its history is the one I'm most familiar with.
Well yes. That's exactly my point. Cancel culture, both overtly (stop practicing your cultural values or else we'll murder the bloody lot of you) and in its more subtle forms has been happens since the dawn of society, when one group of humans first noticed that another group had slightly different social values. It's inherent in human group dynamics.  :smiley:
Well, the Earth *is* currently severely over populated, and could use a few billion fewer people to muck things up, and.... uh, wait. No. That would not make me happy.
  And it's also not the point I was arguing.
   I gave those examples to illustrate that cancel culture is not something new. It's, in fact, ancient. I certainly wasn't making a value judgement: that's an entirely different conversation.

   To be 100% clear:  THAT'S NOT THE POINT I'M MAKING!

Again, you're mistaking the point of my argument. I'm not saying that the over-coiffed housewifes of the 1980s went on homicidal rampages in order to suppress Twisted Sister record sales. I was pointing out that there were many very well organized campaigns against what the religious community perceived as immoral during that time. Those campaigns were prime examples of pre-internet cancel culture.  Again, I wasn't making value judgements or saying it was more violent than the present -- I was pointing out that it existed in the past and was quite pervasive, just as it it today.


TL;DR; Cancel culture is not a new thing. It existed a thousand years ago, it existed a hundred years ago, and it will exist in the future. While I agree that it has become quite visible due to the nature of today's social media, I don't think that it has become worse or more pervasive, and I don't believe that it will lead to some Orwellian dystopia.

   Obviously this is just my opinion, and I've explained why I think the way I do. I would be happy to read your opinions about why you think it is worse today than in the past, any why you think that trend will continue into the future.  :smiley:



I get that schools indoctrinate and feed a wrong narrative nowadays, but real history is real history and other faiths and societies had far more violence in their history.  I'll keep it simple.  As for the church in the middle ages in Europe, it was no saint.  But it did try to keep fighting down by issuing decrees and peace warrants to limit fighting or at least limit it at certain times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_and_Truce_of_God

I will not point out other countries cultures or religions that were violent.  It wasn't until the industrial revolution and gunpowder in the 1700 and 1800's that Europeans had empires and invasions, etc.  For most of human history, it was other races and darker skinned peoples who did most of the conquering and capturing of mass slaves.  Much of European history was fighting amongst themselves.  Crusades possibly revenge for numerous Islamic invasions into Southern Europe.  (I suppose one could debate how European the Romans or the original Romans were as a Southern European people descended from other places.)  Either way human nature can be pretty graphic sometimes.  Millions died in the 20th century due to dictators of all races (From Hitler to Mao to many newly freed colonial nations) being cruel. 


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2021, 12:35:09 pm »
Didn't know that about the Huns, actually. Sounds like maybe interesting reading.

Yeah, the conversion of Korea to Christianity was relatively painless compared to a lot of other places.
Thinking about reasons why, I wonder if it might have something to do with the way in which religion played a part in Korean society: there was shamanism and Buddhism but insofar as I can tell, the local population wasn't terribly attached to either. I think the fact that Christianity was imported by foreigners was a bigger issue than the religion itself. Japan tortured, crucified, and beheaded missionaries because they already had a state religion that was being used by the upper class to manipulate society. Christianity was seen as intrinsically subversive to authority. Here the pushback was more because Christianity would open up Korea to more foreign influence.

   How effectively leadership is leveraging religion to keep its handle on power: I wonder if that's the most important criteria that would determine whether a county can peacefully transition from one religion to another or not?

Edit: It *is* interesting reading. Man, the Huns were all over the place when it came to religion. There's very little out there that at least some of them haven't prayed at!
Check out the wiki: it's super short and sweet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns#Religion

It was the Christians from Jeolla region that began rebelling against the Chosun dynasty in the late 1800's.  Also many of those opposed to Japanese rule also were Christians. 


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2021, 12:38:32 pm »
I get that ... 

hangook77, your arguments here are not wrong, but... well... I think you're engaging in a conversation that nobody else is having.

It was the Christians from Jeolla region that began rebelling against the Chosun dynasty in the late 1800's.  Also many of those opposed to Japanese rule also were Christians. 
Interesting. I would never have thought that the Jeolla region as a centre of rebellion, as it was pretty rural at the time, I think.
Was the fact that they were Christian part the reason for their opposition?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 12:43:09 pm by Kyndo »


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2021, 12:44:02 pm »
I know the Huns were Christianized at one point. I'm not sure when. Not that this really changes anything. Just a fun tidbit.

While there were a some missionaries and early believers killed in the early days (the norm for any pre-industrial society), Korea proves that you can have mass conversion and the growth of significant religious movements without societal upheaval and wars of religion. Something countries that are supposed to be "tolerant" haven't been able to handle.

As I alluded to, most of the "invaders" of Europe later became Christian or converted from the Huns through to the Vikings. 

Nowadays, it is the African Christians and folks from other countries trying to evangelize the west and to keep out what they call "western perversions".  Their expression, not mine.  They have a very strong moral code and wish to resist new western influences.  They often go to North America to evangelize and to be missionaries as they feel the west has abandoned their Christian heritage.  African Christians are very passionate about their faith.  So are Asian Christians, though as I understand it, they can function a bit too much on guilt.  The Church is said to be stronger in places where it is persecuted such as in China and Iran.  There are more Christians than let on and growing.  Also in some parts of the Middle East.  Christianity is the largest religion nominally (though that included a lot of stoic non controversial old mainline Churches).  I suspect it will be the largest by a huge margin in the years to come as it soars in the developing world to new heights.  It may take on different forms though to fit local cultures such as in the Middle East.  Only in the west does it seem to have decline.  (North America and Eastern Europe, though immigration to North America that results in some Muslims converting and many folks from other parts of the world going through a Christian wave or resurgence will counter some of this). 


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2021, 12:55:54 pm »
hangook77, your arguments here are not wrong, but... well... I think you're engaging in a conversation that nobody else is having.
Interesting. I would never have thought that the Jeolla region as a centre of rebellion, as it was pretty rural at the time, I think.
Was the fact that they were Christian part the reason for their opposition?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Korea


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2021, 01:40:20 pm »
hangook77, your arguments here are not wrong, but... well... I think you're engaging in a conversation that nobody else is having.

This doesn't sound like him at all


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2021, 10:58:16 am »
Absolutely. That's why I had them as a separate group along with the Huns (they weren't Christians either). Sorry for the confusion!
In my opinion "most of the bloodshed" is downplaying things just a tad.
    There definitely was some (relatively) peaceful proselytizing and conversion, that's certainly true. And you're 100% correct that many rulers found Christianity a useful tool to promote social cohesion. However, there's a reason why "faith by the sword" is a thing. The Crusaders (like you mentioned), the Conquistadors, the Inquisition, the Huguenots, the various reforms etc etc are all examples that come immediately to mind. All were bloody, and all were directed to religious and therefor cultural conversion.
If you'll pardon a somewhat overly broad generalization, I think that upheaval and disruption is more or less the norm for the religious conversion of a society. I use Christianity as an example not because it's the biggest offender in this regard, but because its history is the one I'm most familiar with.
Well yes. That's exactly my point. Cancel culture, both overtly (stop practicing your cultural values or else we'll murder the bloody lot of you) and in its more subtle forms has been happens since the dawn of society, when one group of humans first noticed that another group had slightly different social values. It's inherent in human group dynamics.  :smiley:
Well, the Earth *is* currently severely over populated, and could use a few billion fewer people to muck things up, and.... uh, wait. No. That would not make me happy.
  And it's also not the point I was arguing.
   I gave those examples to illustrate that cancel culture is not something new. It's, in fact, ancient. I certainly wasn't making a value judgement: that's an entirely different conversation.

   To be 100% clear:  THAT'S NOT THE POINT I'M MAKING!

Again, you're mistaking the point of my argument. I'm not saying that the over-coiffed housewifes of the 1980s went on homicidal rampages in order to suppress Twisted Sister record sales. I was pointing out that there were many very well organized campaigns against what the religious community perceived as immoral during that time. Those campaigns were prime examples of pre-internet cancel culture.  Again, I wasn't making value judgements or saying it was more violent than the present -- I was pointing out that it existed in the past and was quite pervasive, just as it it today.


TL;DR; Cancel culture is not a new thing. It existed a thousand years ago, it existed a hundred years ago, and it will exist in the future. While I agree that it has become quite visible due to the nature of today's social media, I don't think that it has become worse or more pervasive, and I don't believe that it will lead to some Orwellian dystopia.

   Obviously this is just my opinion, and I've explained why I think the way I do. I would be happy to read your opinions about why you think it is worse today than in the past, any why you think that trend will continue into the future.  :smiley:



Yeah sure there were bloody wars, but you don't mention any of the other cultures or races who also did this throughout history.  Also, when Europeans abandoned colonialism, how many of these countries torn themselves apart through nasty civil wars and attacks on each other.  Simply saying Christians or Europeans were killers and no one else was was simplistic.  How many Catholics killed Protestants when they were starting out and then later Protestants going after Catholics in revenge?  (Though both groups seem to get along today at least the more conservatives do.) 


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2021, 11:15:50 am »
Yeah sure there were bloody wars, but you don't mention any of the other cultures or races who also did this throughout history.
Um... I explicitly explained in my comment why I used Christianity for my examples. I suggest you reread my comment.

 
Also, when Europeans abandoned colonialism, how many of these countries torn themselves apart through nasty civil wars and attacks on each other.
Many of them, sadly. How does this relate to cancel culture?

   
Simply saying Christians or Europeans were killers and no one else was was simplistic.
Nobody said this. *I* certainly didn't. Why bring it up?
 
How many Catholics killed Protestants when they were starting out and then later Protestants going after Catholics in revenge?  (Though both groups seem to get along today at least the more conservatives do.)
Lots and lots and lots, sadly.  :sad: Oh, and that would be yet *another* example that illustrates my point.
 


        I like this gif:
       




  • hangook77
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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2021, 11:51:55 am »
Because you keep mentioning only Christians.


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2021, 12:10:40 pm »
I use Christianity as an example not because it's the biggest offender in this regard, but because its history is the one I'm most familiar with.
imagine readingalternatively: imagine dragons
more gg more skill


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2021, 12:36:00 pm »
Any update on how much revenue the OP sent to the Seuss family estate as part of his "Take that SJWs! :laugh:" campaign?


  • hangook77
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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2021, 02:33:10 pm »
imagine readingalternatively: imagine dragons

Well time to familiarize yourself with other history's then and not just the white straight man is bad nonsense spoon fed to you back in school. 


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Re: Purchasing Dr. Seuss books for school library-fighting cancel culture
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2021, 02:34:14 pm »
I just got to thinking which Christian can I put on here to trigger you?  I found it....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2wYutuit4Q