Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture

Exactly yes! I love that you are making my point.

This 300-year period of Anglosphere imperialism is ending. There were aspects of the British and subsequent American empires that worked, which is how it spread, but now it is dysfunctional and will recede (Chinese philosophy tells us this, 天命). America finds itself in steep socioeconomic decline, with their empire losing power just as all empires eventually do and their homeland decaying. The whole barbaric “freedom, democracy, liberalism, corporatism” American model has failed, and the Chinese ancients told us thousands of years ago why it would fail (correct theories have predictive power, thus these texts have now be revalidated for a new age). Of course, since “the Enlightenment” era banned Chinese philosophy they didn’t get the memo.

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world). Just as it has done for thousands of years, Confucianism adapts to the times and survives. The Chinese (and Korean) thought lineage is not going away and anyone who thinks so is lost in the Anglo supremacist daydream, well past the expiration date. Turns out 6% of the world’s population don’t know everything, especially those in a country that has only been around for 200 some years. The adults are returning.

Geopolitical shifts are all the more reason why Chinese philosophy is relevant—not only for understanding the future here in the century of Asia, but for understanding why the American model failed.

The world will adopt China's economic system?
Remind me again, with egg on their face and filled with an inferiority complex, disdain for the West and despite all that Cultural Devolution bullshit what was the economic system that the CCP begrudgingly adopted?
Capitalism. China is Capitalism on steroids.

How about the DPRK? The country with the biggest political short-man syndrome.
Arguably, no country tried harder to make their cute little "Juche" system work. It didn't and like China, the Kims tolerate and indulge in Capitalism.

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them.
Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

I don't see hordes of Westerners hiding in ships, containers and using whatever nefarious means possible to emigrate to China and Korea. I can only assume that these illegal Chinese immigrants and asylum seekers
didn't read all the Confucianist literature you read and don't know what they're running from.

You read like a desperate, bitter and sad old man. Get a life, dude.

One thing that would really help foreigners in Korea, especially ones wanting to fit in long term and prosper without running into the same cultural-difference problems over and over, would be to study Confucianism.

The best way to do this is by simply reading the original source material—the 2500 year old Confucian Classics—competent translations of the Analects, Book of Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, and The Great Learning. In particular Mencius is quite important to the Neo-Confucianism that King Sejeong implemented (Yulgok, who came later, was probably the greatest Korean Confucian scholar).

Reading Mencius is eerie, a thousands of years old text exactly describing the behavior and values of modern Koreans. What we see in Korea is the Confucian value of education, the perfectibility of oneself and children thru work, sincerity, tranquility, social harmony subordinating the individual’s selfish interests, the five relations and social hierarchy, shame is a virtue, etc. It’s all right there in the ancient texts.

The core concept is that thru 礼 (li; ritual), a natural process takes place which brings about 仁 (ren; benevolence). Ritual is not just going to ancestors graves, but daily linguistic rituals of 요 conjugation, bowing, and more. Koreans themselves don’t really study the classics in great detail, and rarely talk about this stuff. They just practice the rites, and intuitively “get it” as it’s so deeply part of their culture and upbringing.

I don’t see how a person can ever truly understand Korea without understanding Ruism. And being as how we’re living in the most Confucian place on the planet, it’s a great opportunity to study this moral philosophy in real life. Studying Korean language is great, but it's very one dimensional without understanding what's culturally happening around you.

I was told by actual Confucian scholars that kings over the years have bastardized Confucianism and it's a remnant of it's former self in today's society.

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them.
Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

Actually, I think monarchy is far more in line with human nature, instinct, and evolution. Hence why almost all societies that emerged from the state of nature tended to have some sort of ultimate sovereign or small numbers of elites, who would do what they can to pass power through their offspring. It's why democracies often embrace dynastic politicians and companies pass ownership through families.

Don't get me wrong, there is often some form of democracy/popular consent in nature amongst animals and primates, but I don't think you really have laid the foundation for your claim.

That's before we get to the issue of democracy failing in East Asia or being incompatible or that it thrived in Western capitalist-democratic societies. I mean, one look at the history those countries and you find those societies either not having democracy for lengthy periods of time or having their democracy fall into something else.

Humans in both the East and West have embraced democracy, authoritarianism, capitalism, and communism, all if the previous system was not providing "the good life" and if the next system delivered to some extent on that promise. And that good life might not necessarily be determined on governance or culture. A cataclysmic event can bring any system to its knees.

I don't see hordes of Westerners hiding in ships, containers and using whatever nefarious means possible to emigrate to China and Korea.

No, but you see plenty deciding to visit or work there for a period of time, either for economic reasons or for adventure or "culture".

Also, I think "nefarious" is a bit judgmental on those who are simply leaving behind a fraught situation and looking to engage in the mutually beneficial transaction of labor in exchange for currency and/or safety. 

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them. Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

Despite this and other posts being mere propaganda parroting, I’ll answer sincerely from the perspective of Chinese philosophy...

What Chinese philosophy understands better than any is nature and human nature—the universal. Democracy is not universal, it was only tried thousands of years ago in Athens and people considered it bad enough to never try again. Things like Rome and America are republics; pseudo-democracy facades for the masses. “Monarchy” or so-called “dictatorship” is really the base leadership form of homo sapiens. Leadership persists so long as the monarch’s rule is functional for the society, and when it loses functionality it ends.

Chinese philosophy understood this 3000 years ago with “the mandate of nature” (mistranslated as “Heaven” by Christian missionaries). This political philosophy evolved over the millennia, a philosophy of virtue ethics (those at the top should provide “virtuous” i.e. functional rule) and using imperial exams to select the best from the population into the state. Today the Chinese system is the largest governmental meritocracy that has ever existed—using an IQ test with a 1.5% pass rate to select from 1.5 billion people (with the world’s highest avg IQ) into the CPC (90 million people), and then from there rate them on results in governing towns, provinces, and finally...they make it to the circle of elders at the top (the “monarchs”). It’s not clear if the recent “democracy” fad will last, but Lindy Effect says probably no. Monarchy, in various forms is our natural way and it will likely persist.

As far as “capitalism” China has been the world’s largest economy, capitalistic, for thousands of years. What they figured out recently is a solution to American neoliberalism (corporatism), which cannibalizes society until self-collapse. The solution is pretty simple: if you create large state-backed corporate oligopolies, as America has done with the S&P500, you probably want to be smart and keep key ones 51% owned by the state. The state must always have more power than industry. Otherwise industry controls the state, and you end up with American corporate fascism. [By the way, we don’t have that here with Chaebols, because of Confucianism—“just profit, who cares about society” is a violation of roles and responsibilities; and it’s shameful—this is why activist hedge funds like Elliot keep harassing the Chaobols, because they won’t maximize enough profits by cannibalizing the Korean people.]

Confucianism is maybe the closest overlap you can ever get with human nature and instinct. If we imagine a Venn diagram the overlap isn’t perfect, but close. Primate hierarchy, evolutionary roles and responsibilities (son to father, wife to husband, ruler to subject, peer to peer, elder to younger), family values, the four beginnings, etc. And it does all this without inventing a deity; secular; humanism. America always talks of its “universal values” (bizarre specific values which have little historic precedent), but Confucian values are closer to universal.

Just a reminder:

Kimchininja was a notorious troll on Dave's until he was banned for being a troll. He appeared here a couple years ago as Ptolemy and trolled hardcore in support of communist China. He disappeared eventually, now he's back as...Kimchininja.

The concept of Sadae, which defines South Korea’s geopolitical philosophy, comes from Mencius. This is yet another example of Confucianism as the central philosophy of Korea.
Let’s do a quick summary of this Confucian political strategy. This will really help in understanding Korean geopolitical attitudes, and how they shift as power shifts.

Sadae is a strategy for how a smaller state can deal with a larger state (previously China, then Japan, and today the American empire), how they can survive. It’s the opposite of North Korea’s Juche philosophy, but both are dealing with our current Anglo imperial expansion environment.

• Sadae (사대) is filial piety to the empire, in order to survive and benefit.
• Juche (주체) is the nation remaining self-reliant; avoiding dependence.

The original comment from Mencius is below. Although Mencius was a Confucian (hierarchy; respect ruler), this concept is also very Taoist (yield in the face of superior strength, to be preserved whole). This is why the American propaganda of “allies” is incorrect. Allies requires requires sovereignty and optionality. But Koreans have limited both. The KR-US relationship is based on a pragmatic fear of the empire, and opportunism. Essentially “don’t fight heaven; you’ll lose,” instead win its “favoring decree.” Note that from an independence-nationalist perspective this can sound like horribly subservient sucking up to the empire, which is voiced in the somewhat derogatory term 사대주의.

—————————————————
以小事大者，畏天者也，畏天者保其國。
“He who with a small State serves a large one, stands in awe of Heaven. He who stands in awe of Heaven, will affect with his love and protection his own kingdom. It is said in the Book of Poetry: I fear the Majesty of Heaven, and will thus preserve its favouring decree.”—Mencius


Mod edit: Small adjustments in tone so that people will actually read and think about what otherwise is an excellent, educational post.

I had spring rolls but I guess you guys would call them eggs rolls as I sealed the wrappers with egg and would be concerned about misleading folks with food allergies. 

i consumed only the analects

So what did you have for dinner guys? I had a butter chicken pie.

Egg spring rolls....

Egg spring rolls....

I'm not sure Marti, Mr C. and the American experts quoted would approve. Shouldn't there be a strict dichotomy?

I'm not sure Marti, Mr C. and the American experts quoted would approve. Shouldn't there be a strict dichotomy?

Uhh..you do realize that the quotes were of both Chinese Americans and actual Chinese people in China, right?

I love how in Adel's brain, the sources we linked to simply didn't register and the only sources out there are the ones he cited, which didn't even confirm his point...

Uhh..you do realize that the quotes were of both Chinese Americans and actual Chinese people in China, right?

I love how in Adel's brain, the sources we linked to simply didn't register and the only sources out there are the ones he cited, which didn't even confirm his point...

Egg spring rolls ever? Can your brain handle it? Sapir-Whorf hypothesis much ?

I like to just call them "spregg rolls"...

I like to just call them "spregg rolls"...

Seppo egg rolls, to avoid confusion, for the uninitiated?

I just want to know if it's ok for me to call my 'Cha Gio' spring roll? They do have egg in them and they are quite crunchy but I use a rice flour rapper. Will I be arrested and charged with a food crime if I do this  in America?

Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak.

Then it seems like you would know it's "of whom you all speak."

Steamed
-tofu
-potato
-carrot
-broccoli
-ginger/black pepper
-avocado
- fried egg
- vega one shake
- vega sport protein shake

You steamed the avocado? Or did you put it in the shake?

"Roll it over, let's take it from behind.
Roll it over, let's take it from behind.
It's only love, God knows it ain't no crime."

Then it seems like you would know it's "of whom you all speak."

Depends if they're referring to the book or to the character in it, I guess.

But you're probably right. (I try not to give Chimp Kimchininja the benefit of the doubt).

I just want to know if it's ok for me to call my 'Cha Gio' spring roll? They do have egg in them and they are quite crunchy but I use a rice flour rapper. Will I be arrested and charged with a food crime if I do this  in America?

I wouldn't imagine it would be too much of a problem if you keep your culinary practices behind closed doors among consenting adults.  Just don't let  the American experts get wind of it though as they may bring the FDA down on your a$$!