Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture

There are probably similar books about Asian culture people can read without having to plough through the original texts.

“A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy” by Wing-Tsit Chan is the best there ever was, and ever will be. He selected the most influential source material from 2K years, did neutral translations, and tied the whole thought lineage together with brief neutral commentary. It’s legendary among all us who study this stuff.

...can't say reading Analects has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting).

This was me; more of a Laozi guy. But there’s some things we have to realize about Confucianism, which might help...

1) Laozi is the roots of the Chinese thought lineage (defines reality as nature), and Confucianism a branch (one real world implementation working with *our* nature), 2) by the time Confucianism catches on in Han Dynasty many of Laozi’s base assumptions are imbedded in it, 3) then 1K years later Neo-Confucianism blends in Taoism and Buddhism, so Taoism is inside Korean Confucianism, 4) Laozi is a brilliant mind and writer and Kongzi is pretty shit and Analects is kinda a mess, 5) Confucianism is not the writings of Kongzi but the sum of many contributors (Mengzi et al) put into practice.

Eventually I realized that the brilliance is the real world implementation in society, not the literary work itself moving us individually intellectually. Kongzi and his cult were grass-roots doers, not a librarian/sage like Laozi.

People are far far far more alike than different in the 21st century developed world.

If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]

If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]

You can understand the reasons why an able-bodied person would park in a disabled parking space; laziness, inconsideration, obliviousness etc.
Does understanding it make it any less frustrating or infuriating? I understand Authoritarianism, that doesn't mean I'll tolerate it.

You'd have a point that we should study Confucius thought... if we were in Korea/China/Japan and we were in the 19th century.

Look around you, Korea, Japan and even China have embraced the Capitalist economic model and, save China, a Democracy and a constitutional monarchy, respectively.
The frustration Westerners AND Asians experiences is the mismatch of balancing a Western political and economic model with a archaic Eastern traditions and culture; it's a boot trying to fit on a hand.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.

Exactly yes! I love that you are making my point.

This 300-year period of Anglosphere imperialism is ending. There were aspects of the British and subsequent American empires that worked, which is how it spread, but now it is dysfunctional and will recede (Chinese philosophy tells us this, 天命). America finds itself in steep socioeconomic decline, with their empire losing power just as all empires eventually do and their homeland decaying. The whole barbaric “freedom, democracy, liberalism, corporatism” American model has failed, and the Chinese ancients told us thousands of years ago why it would fail (correct theories have predictive power, thus these texts have now be revalidated for a new age). Of course, since “the Enlightenment” era banned Chinese philosophy they didn’t get the memo.

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world). Just as it has done for thousands of years, Confucianism adapts to the times and survives. The Chinese (and Korean) thought lineage is not going away and anyone who thinks so is lost in the Anglo supremacist daydream, well past the expiration date. Turns out 6% of the world’s population don’t know everything, especially those in a country that has only been around for 200 some years. The adults are returning.

Geopolitical shifts are all the more reason why Chinese philosophy is relevant—not only for understanding the future here in the century of Asia, but for understanding why the American model failed.

tell me more about china's "fresh restructured model" and how it blends chinese thought (confucianism, allegedly) with western ideas like communism? unless marx was chinese (in which case i really need to speak to my theory of alienation professor)

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world)

Spoken like a true CCP troll, 50 cent army style. He talks about Western Propaganda, what a joke. Actually I have come to realise it is pointless to engage with an indoctrinated CCP troll.

I am quite curious to know if he has been to China and if he supports genocide of the Uyghers, forced organ harvesting and the destruction of the Chinese people's rights to freedom.

The people of China don't deserve their so-called government, they deserve the government of Taiwan where you have true democracy , freedom of speech etc. That is my wish for the wonderful average Chinese person.

naturally, he's going to deny all of those things or at least justify them. but even if we pretend those issues don't exist, most of us still wouldn't choose the chinese way. and that's a more fundamental problem for what i think his argument is

All that kind of language has been used by the left in the US  - putting illegal immigrants in concentration camps, the mass incarceration of black people, their genocide at the hands of cops etc - so its impact has been greatly reduced.

If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]

Or, you know, individually they just suck at adapting. Same as why some Chinese or Koreans can adapt to living in the West and others can't.

Also, there is more than likely a genetic component to adaptation given that there is a genetic basis for someones chances of being liberal or conservative.

You know genetics and science, that "nonsense" you've ignored in favor of some culture claptrap.

You want things that really show difference besides genetics? Try developed world vs. non, rural vs. urban, and occupation.

The frustration Westerners AND Asians experiences is the mismatch of balancing a Western political and economic model with a archaic Eastern traditions and culture; it's a boot trying to fit on a hand.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.

This assumes facts not in evidence. No foundation for this statement has been laid, nor any criteria established.

Exactly yes! I love that you are making my point.

This 300-year period of Anglosphere imperialism is ending. There were aspects of the British and subsequent American empires that worked, which is how it spread, but now it is dysfunctional and will recede (Chinese philosophy tells us this, 天命). America finds itself in steep socioeconomic decline, with their empire losing power just as all empires eventually do and their homeland decaying. The whole barbaric “freedom, democracy, liberalism, corporatism” American model has failed, and the Chinese ancients told us thousands of years ago why it would fail (correct theories have predictive power, thus these texts have now be revalidated for a new age). Of course, since “the Enlightenment” era banned Chinese philosophy they didn’t get the memo.

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world). Just as it has done for thousands of years, Confucianism adapts to the times and survives. The Chinese (and Korean) thought lineage is not going away and anyone who thinks so is lost in the Anglo supremacist daydream, well past the expiration date. Turns out 6% of the world’s population don’t know everything, especially those in a country that has only been around for 200 some years. The adults are returning.

Geopolitical shifts are all the more reason why Chinese philosophy is relevant—not only for understanding the future here in the century of Asia, but for understanding why the American model failed.

The world will adopt China's economic system?
Remind me again, with egg on their face and filled with an inferiority complex, disdain for the West and despite all that Cultural Devolution bullshit what was the economic system that the CCP begrudgingly adopted?
Capitalism. China is Capitalism on steroids.

How about the DPRK? The country with the biggest political short-man syndrome.
Arguably, no country tried harder to make their cute little "Juche" system work. It didn't and like China, the Kims tolerate and indulge in Capitalism.

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them.
Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

I don't see hordes of Westerners hiding in ships, containers and using whatever nefarious means possible to emigrate to China and Korea. I can only assume that these illegal Chinese immigrants and asylum seekers
didn't read all the Confucianist literature you read and don't know what they're running from.

You read like a desperate, bitter and sad old man. Get a life, dude.

One thing that would really help foreigners in Korea, especially ones wanting to fit in long term and prosper without running into the same cultural-difference problems over and over, would be to study Confucianism.

The best way to do this is by simply reading the original source material—the 2500 year old Confucian Classics—competent translations of the Analects, Book of Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, and The Great Learning. In particular Mencius is quite important to the Neo-Confucianism that King Sejeong implemented (Yulgok, who came later, was probably the greatest Korean Confucian scholar).

Reading Mencius is eerie, a thousands of years old text exactly describing the behavior and values of modern Koreans. What we see in Korea is the Confucian value of education, the perfectibility of oneself and children thru work, sincerity, tranquility, social harmony subordinating the individual’s selfish interests, the five relations and social hierarchy, shame is a virtue, etc. It’s all right there in the ancient texts.

The core concept is that thru 礼 (li; ritual), a natural process takes place which brings about 仁 (ren; benevolence). Ritual is not just going to ancestors graves, but daily linguistic rituals of 요 conjugation, bowing, and more. Koreans themselves don’t really study the classics in great detail, and rarely talk about this stuff. They just practice the rites, and intuitively “get it” as it’s so deeply part of their culture and upbringing.

I don’t see how a person can ever truly understand Korea without understanding Ruism. And being as how we’re living in the most Confucian place on the planet, it’s a great opportunity to study this moral philosophy in real life. Studying Korean language is great, but it's very one dimensional without understanding what's culturally happening around you.

I was told by actual Confucian scholars that kings over the years have bastardized Confucianism and it's a remnant of it's former self in today's society.

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them.
Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

Actually, I think monarchy is far more in line with human nature, instinct, and evolution. Hence why almost all societies that emerged from the state of nature tended to have some sort of ultimate sovereign or small numbers of elites, who would do what they can to pass power through their offspring. It's why democracies often embrace dynastic politicians and companies pass ownership through families.

Don't get me wrong, there is often some form of democracy/popular consent in nature amongst animals and primates, but I don't think you really have laid the foundation for your claim.

That's before we get to the issue of democracy failing in East Asia or being incompatible or that it thrived in Western capitalist-democratic societies. I mean, one look at the history those countries and you find those societies either not having democracy for lengthy periods of time or having their democracy fall into something else.

Humans in both the East and West have embraced democracy, authoritarianism, capitalism, and communism, all if the previous system was not providing "the good life" and if the next system delivered to some extent on that promise. And that good life might not necessarily be determined on governance or culture. A cataclysmic event can bring any system to its knees.

I don't see hordes of Westerners hiding in ships, containers and using whatever nefarious means possible to emigrate to China and Korea.

No, but you see plenty deciding to visit or work there for a period of time, either for economic reasons or for adventure or "culture".

Also, I think "nefarious" is a bit judgmental on those who are simply leaving behind a fraught situation and looking to engage in the mutually beneficial transaction of labor in exchange for currency and/or safety. 

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them. Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

Despite this and other posts being mere propaganda parroting, I’ll answer sincerely from the perspective of Chinese philosophy...

What Chinese philosophy understands better than any is nature and human nature—the universal. Democracy is not universal, it was only tried thousands of years ago in Athens and people considered it bad enough to never try again. Things like Rome and America are republics; pseudo-democracy facades for the masses. “Monarchy” or so-called “dictatorship” is really the base leadership form of homo sapiens. Leadership persists so long as the monarch’s rule is functional for the society, and when it loses functionality it ends.

Chinese philosophy understood this 3000 years ago with “the mandate of nature” (mistranslated as “Heaven” by Christian missionaries). This political philosophy evolved over the millennia, a philosophy of virtue ethics (those at the top should provide “virtuous” i.e. functional rule) and using imperial exams to select the best from the population into the state. Today the Chinese system is the largest governmental meritocracy that has ever existed—using an IQ test with a 1.5% pass rate to select from 1.5 billion people (with the world’s highest avg IQ) into the CPC (90 million people), and then from there rate them on results in governing towns, provinces, and finally...they make it to the circle of elders at the top (the “monarchs”). It’s not clear if the recent “democracy” fad will last, but Lindy Effect says probably no. Monarchy, in various forms is our natural way and it will likely persist.

As far as “capitalism” China has been the world’s largest economy, capitalistic, for thousands of years. What they figured out recently is a solution to American neoliberalism (corporatism), which cannibalizes society until self-collapse. The solution is pretty simple: if you create large state-backed corporate oligopolies, as America has done with the S&P500, you probably want to be smart and keep key ones 51% owned by the state. The state must always have more power than industry. Otherwise industry controls the state, and you end up with American corporate fascism. [By the way, we don’t have that here with Chaebols, because of Confucianism—“just profit, who cares about society” is a violation of roles and responsibilities; and it’s shameful—this is why activist hedge funds like Elliot keep harassing the Chaobols, because they won’t maximize enough profits by cannibalizing the Korean people.]

Confucianism is maybe the closest overlap you can ever get with human nature and instinct. If we imagine a Venn diagram the overlap isn’t perfect, but close. Primate hierarchy, evolutionary roles and responsibilities (son to father, wife to husband, ruler to subject, peer to peer, elder to younger), family values, the four beginnings, etc. And it does all this without inventing a deity; secular; humanism. America always talks of its “universal values” (bizarre specific values which have little historic precedent), but Confucian values are closer to universal.

Just a reminder:

Kimchininja was a notorious troll on Dave's until he was banned for being a troll. He appeared here a couple years ago as Ptolemy and trolled hardcore in support of communist China. He disappeared eventually, now he's back as...Kimchininja.

Just a reminder:

Kimchininja was a notorious troll on Dave's until he was banned for being a troll. He appeared here a couple years ago as Ptolemy and trolled hardcore in support of communist China. He disappeared eventually, now he's back as...Kimchininja.

Trolling in Kimchinija's sense has become quite trivialized in recent years. Regardless, it always hits me as to how deeply unhappy a person has to be in the real world to devote so much time and energy into trolling. There are about 4 people on this site
I'd categorize as trolls and each one of them only seems to join a conversation or have something to say when it's time to criticize another user or start an argument; how sad.

I don't think he's one of those '50c army'' guys, their posts are more curt and with terrible English. I think he's genuinely just a sad, old expat  with nothing better to do.