Read 5702 times

  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6799

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2021, 06:51:58 pm »
She’s on the £10 note, (On the back. Queen Elizabeth is on the front.)


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5758

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu County, Taiwan (not part of China)
    more
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2021, 05:58:51 am »
Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.

Terrible to be so ignorant. You accuse us of being ignorant . Pot, kettle, black.
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2021, 07:02:41 am »
Terrible to be so ignorant. You accuse us of being ignorant .

See relevancy; I’m not living in the West/UK.

To get back on topic, again, we can use this very tangent of the trolls...

In choosing where to invest our reading, it helps to realize there are “thought lineages.” Take some contemporary Western romance author; where did she get her ideas, where did that person in-turn get their ideas? Trace the ideas to their roots. It’s a tree, much like biological evolution, and you can go back to the common ancestor—the roots of Western thought. Or in the case of East Asia a parallel thought lineage with different starting assumptions (in China). So, if one hasn’t read and grasped Aristotle and the Bible first (the roots), it’s just playing around Jane Austen (the leaves) without understanding where they came from. Things have beginnings; Laozi told us that. And beginnings determine trajectories, thus they tell us both the past and probable futures.

It’s all about opportunity cost and there’s an element of strategic ignorance. A person can live in East Asia for years yet remain ignorant on the roots of thought here, nothing is stopping them as we can see from the responses on this thread (“I know nothing about it, but know it doesn’t interest me”). Most people do that, including those born here—although actually the locals study ancient Chinese characters in junior high, and learn some academically about 유교 (because Ruism values education). However there are advantages to deeper knowledge; few read the source texts of their society, just like in the West. Relevant rare knowledge has more value than common irrelevant knowledge.

The other asset of reading the Chinese classics is that it gives a person a way to get out of their bubble (their born into “thought lineage”), unlike reading Jane Austen which is in the bubble. You don’t actually know you’re in a bubble, or the outer shape/color of that object, until you get outside of it. How could you? From outside, with perspective, suddenly you can look back at Western thought and be like “ahhh, it’s a thing.” And it’s just one thing, not the whole world like it arrogantly claims. I don’t see how anyone can ever truly understand the West, without understanding Eastern (or other) thought.


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2085

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2021, 07:40:57 am »
Yes, just finished 'Dominion' by Tom Holland.  It's a long read but gives Westerners a good insight into their heritage. There are probably similar books about Asian culture people can read without having to plough through the original texts.

https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Christian-Revolution-Remade-World/dp/0465093507

« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 07:43:40 am by stoat »


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2728

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2021, 07:54:02 am »
so did the tree try to cut off its own branch or how's that mesh with your metaphor? or maybe there was no criticize confucius campaign? or maybe marx was chinese? or maybe i don't know anything because western propaganda got me all confused, maannnnn

anyway since kimchininja likes the classics so much, here's a link to the analects

https://antilogicalism.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/the-analects.pdf  edit: in general you can find lots of great stuff here! check it out :)

can't say reading it has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting) but maybe the analects will open your third eye about korea or whatever
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:00:12 am by tylerthegloob »
more gg more skill


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1654

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2021, 08:22:55 am »
Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.

lol


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2085

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2021, 08:27:19 am »
Quote
   
can't say reading it has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting) but maybe the analects will open your third eye about korea or whatever   

I'm guessing you have to learn Chinese first and read it in its original form before you properly comment on its efficacy


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2021, 11:16:02 am »
Probably why it's not as popular  :laugh:
Is it?

Persuasion was my favorite.
Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.
9/10 Billy Goats Gruff. That was some 3-Year Letterman type shit right there.


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2021, 11:22:56 am »
The other asset of reading the Chinese classics is that it gives a person a way to get out of their bubble (their born into “thought lineage”), unlike reading Jane Austen which is in the bubble. You don’t actually know you’re in a bubble, or the outer shape/color of that object, until you get outside of it. How could you? From outside, with perspective, suddenly you can look back at Western thought and be like “ahhh, it’s a thing.” And it’s just one thing, not the whole world like it arrogantly claims. I don’t see how anyone can ever truly understand the West, without understanding Eastern (or other) thought.
The world has changed so drastically and become so homogenized that to focus on Confucianism is pointless.

At this point marketing and "How to Get Rich on Youtube" is more relevant to the study of human behavior and customs than Plato or Confucious. People are far far far more alike than different in the 21st century developed world.


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2085

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2021, 11:29:32 am »
Quote
   from: stoat on Yesterday at 01:03:19 pm
Probably why it's not as popular  :laugh:
Is it     

Pride and Prejudice 17 (movies) V Emma 6 according to Google.


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2021, 09:08:44 pm »
There are probably similar books about Asian culture people can read without having to plough through the original texts.

“A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy” by Wing-Tsit Chan is the best there ever was, and ever will be. He selected the most influential source material from 2K years, did neutral translations, and tied the whole thought lineage together with brief neutral commentary. It’s legendary among all us who study this stuff.


...can't say reading Analects has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting).

This was me; more of a Laozi guy. But there’s some things we have to realize about Confucianism, which might help...

1) Laozi is the roots of the Chinese thought lineage (defines reality as nature), and Confucianism a branch (one real world implementation working with *our* nature), 2) by the time Confucianism catches on in Han Dynasty many of Laozi’s base assumptions are imbedded in it, 3) then 1K years later Neo-Confucianism blends in Taoism and Buddhism, so Taoism is inside Korean Confucianism, 4) Laozi is a brilliant mind and writer and Kongzi is pretty shit and Analects is kinda a mess, 5) Confucianism is not the writings of Kongzi but the sum of many contributors (Mengzi et al) put into practice.

Eventually I realized that the brilliance is the real world implementation in society, not the literary work itself moving us individually intellectually. Kongzi and his cult were grass-roots doers, not a librarian/sage like Laozi.


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2021, 09:14:52 pm »
People are far far far more alike than different in the 21st century developed world.

If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2021, 10:15:20 pm »
If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]

You can understand the reasons why an able-bodied person would park in a disabled parking space; laziness, inconsideration, obliviousness etc.
Does understanding it make it any less frustrating or infuriating? I understand Authoritarianism, that doesn't mean I'll tolerate it.

You'd have a point that we should study Confucius thought... if we were in Korea/China/Japan and we were in the 19th century.

Look around you, Korea, Japan and even China have embraced the Capitalist economic model and, save China, a Democracy and a constitutional monarchy, respectively.
The frustration Westerners AND Asians experiences is the mismatch of balancing a Western political and economic model with a archaic Eastern traditions and culture; it's a boot trying to fit on a hand.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2021, 07:11:41 am »
Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.

Exactly yes! I love that you are making my point.

This 300-year period of Anglosphere imperialism is ending. There were aspects of the British and subsequent American empires that worked, which is how it spread, but now it is dysfunctional and will recede (Chinese philosophy tells us this, 天命). America finds itself in steep socioeconomic decline, with their empire losing power just as all empires eventually do and their homeland decaying. The whole barbaric “freedom, democracy, liberalism, corporatism” American model has failed, and the Chinese ancients told us thousands of years ago why it would fail (correct theories have predictive power, thus these texts have now be revalidated for a new age). Of course, since “the Enlightenment” era banned Chinese philosophy they didn’t get the memo.

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world). Just as it has done for thousands of years, Confucianism adapts to the times and survives. The Chinese (and Korean) thought lineage is not going away and anyone who thinks so is lost in the Anglo supremacist daydream, well past the expiration date. Turns out 6% of the world’s population don’t know everything, especially those in a country that has only been around for 200 some years. The adults are returning.

Geopolitical shifts are all the more reason why Chinese philosophy is relevant—not only for understanding the future here in the century of Asia, but for understanding why the American model failed.


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2728

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2021, 09:03:39 am »
tell me more about china's "fresh restructured model" and how it blends chinese thought (confucianism, allegedly) with western ideas like communism? unless marx was chinese (in which case i really need to speak to my theory of alienation professor)
more gg more skill


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5758

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu County, Taiwan (not part of China)
    more
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2021, 10:22:05 am »
Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world)

Spoken like a true CCP troll, 50 cent army style. He talks about Western Propaganda, what a joke. Actually I have come to realise it is pointless to engage with an indoctrinated CCP troll.

I am quite curious to know if he has been to China and if he supports genocide of the Uyghers, forced organ harvesting and the destruction of the Chinese people's rights to freedom.

The people of China don't deserve their so-called government, they deserve the government of Taiwan where you have true democracy , freedom of speech etc. That is my wish for the wonderful average Chinese person.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 10:47:07 am by confusedsafferinkorea »
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2728

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2021, 10:44:31 am »
naturally, he's going to deny all of those things or at least justify them. but even if we pretend those issues don't exist, most of us still wouldn't choose the chinese way. and that's a more fundamental problem for what i think his argument is
more gg more skill


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2085

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2021, 10:57:45 am »
All that kind of language has been used by the left in the US  - putting illegal immigrants in concentration camps, the mass incarceration of black people, their genocide at the hands of cops etc - so its impact has been greatly reduced.


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2021, 11:27:17 am »
If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]
Or, you know, individually they just suck at adapting. Same as why some Chinese or Koreans can adapt to living in the West and others can't.

Also, there is more than likely a genetic component to adaptation given that there is a genetic basis for someones chances of being liberal or conservative.

You know genetics and science, that "nonsense" you've ignored in favor of some culture claptrap.

You want things that really show difference besides genetics? Try developed world vs. non, rural vs. urban, and occupation.


Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2021, 11:30:40 am »
The frustration Westerners AND Asians experiences is the mismatch of balancing a Western political and economic model with a archaic Eastern traditions and culture; it's a boot trying to fit on a hand.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.
This assumes facts not in evidence. No foundation for this statement has been laid, nor any criteria established.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 11:35:53 am by Mr.DeMartino »