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  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

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trump and Russia
« on: December 18, 2020, 10:43:38 am »
So Russia launces a cyberattack on the US and  trump, again, does nothing.  That ain't no hoax.

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This week brought the disclosure of a global cyberespionage campaign that penetrated multiple U.S. government agencies by compromising a common network management tool from the company SolarWinds used by thousands of organizations. Russia, the prime suspect, denied involvement.

Cybersecurity investigators said the hack’s impact extends far beyond the affected U.S. agencies, which include the Treasury and Commerce departments. Defense contractors like General Dynamics and Huntington Ingalls Industries were on SolarWinds’ client list, but those two firms have declined to comment.

SolarWinds counts all five military services, the Pentagon and the National Security Agency among its clientele, and the New York Times reported that the State Department, the Department of Homeland Security and parts of the Pentagon were compromised.


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2020, 10:47:42 am »
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-organization-ordered-to-turn-over-documents-to-new-york-attorney-general-11608073387   Trump has bigger problems. Also worth note that Presidential pardons are only for federal crimes. Trump will most likely have to flee to Russia once he leaves office. It'll be awesome to hear how his cult will react once he absconds.


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 10:59:31 am »
How dare Trump leave this up to relevant agencies to prevent it and not spend all his hours personally writing anti-cyberattack programs. It's his fault!!!!!!


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2020, 02:49:10 pm »
How dare Trump leave this up to relevant agencies to prevent it and not spend all his hours personally writing anti-cyberattack programs. It's his fault!!!!!!

While simultaneously insisting on having all the credit for the Covid vaccine.  Surely if he gets NO BLAME when things go wrong, he derserves NO CREDIT when something goes right.

And he deserves no credit anyway, as Pfizer didn't take a penny from Warp Speed ...


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2020, 02:54:52 pm »
While simultaneously insisting on having all the credit for the Covid vaccine.  Surely if he gets NO BLAME when things go wrong, he derserves NO CREDIT when something goes right.

And he deserves no credit anyway, as Pfizer didn't take a penny from Warp Speed ...
I agree that Trump deserves little credit. People way overstate what the President's powers and influence are. It's why I never bought into Benghzai!!!!!! and ridiculed those who did. The exciting version is "Everything that happens because of the President and we should credit or blame them" the boring version acknowledges all of the moving parts.


  • Adel
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2020, 02:12:51 am »
Who can forget how hard he was on Putin last time?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kwKu7Vqvig

No hint of being compromised there at all.  It was just a slip of the tongue. :laugh:

Who can forget that  'incredible offer'!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 02:39:21 am by Adel »


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2020, 05:56:48 am »
How dare Trump leave this up to relevant agencies to prevent it and not spend all his hours personally writing anti-cyberattack programs. It's his fault!!!!!!
Yes, why give up his golf game to get involved in national security as the commander-in-chief?

"Do your job." Bill Belichick


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2021, 12:47:58 pm »
Speaking of Trump and Russia....

CBSNews Senior Investigative Correspondent Catherine Herridge-
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39-page indictment Igor Danchenko stands out because it makes the linkage between Clinton campaign/lawyer, opposition research known as “Steele Dossier” used by FBI to obtain surveillance warrants for Trump campaign aide @carterwpage+ then Special Counsel Mueller probe.
https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1456320403924733959

Washington Post Editor Glenn Kessler-
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I realize it was supposedly "raw intelligence," not news reporting. But this indictment alleges Steele's key source invented conversations with one sub-source and relied on information from another source tainted by proximity to Democrats.
https://twitter.com/GlennKesslerWP/status/1456334687681531908

Now, a caveat- We have to see more of what is really there and that this isn't a reverse Manafort/Flynn/Page where all they are doing is going after people for lying about stuff not central to the case, but it sure doesn't look that way, based on what appears to be there. Looks like they actually lied about where their information came from and what they knew about it.

It really is starting to look like someone from the Clinton campaign colluded with someone from Russian intelligence to swing the election in their candidate's favor......by accusing the other campaign of colluding with Russia.

Seriously, at what point will you lot admit you were had on this?


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2021, 01:10:42 pm »
Speaking of Trump and Russia....

CBSNews Senior Investigative Correspondent Catherine Herridge-https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1456320403924733959

Washington Post Editor Glenn Kessler-https://twitter.com/GlennKesslerWP/status/1456334687681531908

Now, a caveat- We have to see more of what is really there and that this isn't a reverse Manafort/Flynn/Page where all they are doing is going after people for lying about stuff not central to the case, but it sure doesn't look that way, based on what appears to be there. Looks like they actually lied about where their information came from and what they knew about it.

It really is starting to look like someone from the Clinton campaign colluded with someone from Russian intelligence to swing the election in their candidate's favor......by accusing the other campaign of colluding with Russia.

Seriously, at what point will you lot admit you were had on this?

So which information in the Steele Dossier has been shown to be false?


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2021, 01:16:18 pm »
So which information in the Steele Dossier has been shown to be false?
The true nature of the sourcing and the reliability of their material. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Never should have been included in any basis for an investigation, nor should media outlets have given credence to it.

Just admit you were had. It was political innuendo theater fit for the tabloids.


  • Adel
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2021, 02:36:18 pm »
I know that you love to discredit the Steele dossier and insist it was what initiated the Russian investigation, but that tip off from Alexander Downer, a diplomat and conservative ally of the United States, after that dunken boasting from George Demetrios Papadopoulos in a British Pub is what kicked everything off!


  • Mr C
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2021, 02:50:28 pm »
The true nature of the sourcing and the reliability of their material. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Never should have been included in any basis for an investigation, nor should media outlets have given credence to it.

Just admit you were had. It was political innuendo theater fit for the tabloids.

So in other words, the Steele Dossier tells some ugly truths about Trump and the campaign, but since you can't deny them, you  have to "shoot the messenger".

If nothing in the Steele Dossier has been disproved, in what effing universe were people who believe the dossier "had"?  That's beyond ridiculous.


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2021, 06:30:11 pm »
So in other words, the Steele Dossier tells some ugly truths about Trump and the campaign, but since you can't deny them, you  have to "shoot the messenger".

If nothing in the Steele Dossier has been disproved, in what effing universe were people who believe the dossier "had"?  That's beyond ridiculous.
Wait a second, you're saying that it's up to Trump to DISPROVE the allegations in the dossier? That the dossier is presumed true until he disproves it?

In other words, Trump is guilty until proven innocent?

This is the problem and the reason you fell for it- Because it was something negative about Trump, you assumed it must be true. Then when pushed you allowed that assumption to turn into belief.

You're now in the conspiracy theory and tin hat territory of "Well, until you DISPROVE it, I will believe it.

Just admit you fell for a crock of shit.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 06:36:39 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


  • Mr C
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2021, 12:04:05 am »
Wait a second, you're saying that it's up to Trump to DISPROVE the allegations in the dossier? That the dossier is presumed true until he disproves it?

In other words, Trump is guilty until proven innocent?


In a court of law, no.  In the court of public opinion, well, maybe.  Are you so dull you didn't know that?

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This is the problem and the reason you fell for it- Because it was something negative about Trump, you assumed it must be true.


Let's get down to brass tacks.  Donald Trump is a scumbag and con artist of the highest order.  You have said so yourself.  Repeatedly, have you not?!?  Yeah, you have. 

Now you're suddenly Charlie Brown.  Lucy pulls the football  away the moment before he kicks, and he falls on his ass.  Once, twice, even three times, okay--he trusts her.  But how many times before he says, "You know what?  Lucy is never going to let me kick that football."

This is you.  No matter how many times Trump has lied, cheated and screwed his investors, regular working folks and indeed the American people, you think this time, he's going to let me kick the ball.

You are Charlie Brown.  He's a good kid, but a bit dull.  Despite all the evidence dating back to the seventies, you think Trump's somehow, suddenly an honest man.  But he's Lucy, perpetually pulling away the ball.

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Then when pushed you allowed that assumption to turn into belief.

You're now in the conspiracy theory and tin hat territory of "Well, until you DISPROVE it, I will believe it.

Just admit you fell for a crock of shit.

Once again, you are showing disregard for the nature of evidence,  What you're calling a "crock of shit" has yet to be shown to be that at all.  No evidence that I know of (and I asked you for any that you have) disputes the key claims.  Am I right?  And again, the claims fit well with what we know about Trump.  That matters, right?

Do I want details of provenance?  Of course I do.  But if I was presented with what was said to be a new dinosaur fossil, I would first try to investigate the fossil, and show that it was or wasn't.  Then, let's say, everything about it checks out, you know, based on all we know about dinosaurs.  After I know it's real, then I want learn about it's provenance.  Had it been a fake, I wouldn't care who faked it.  Except I would never listen to them again.

Similarly, let's agree to ignore anything the folks behind the dossier say, but only after the purported facts in it have been discredited (which, as far I and you know, they have not.)  This is incredibly reasonable, and not at all like a conspiracy theory.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 11:29:31 am by Mr C »


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2021, 12:42:40 pm »
In a court of law, no.  In the court of public opinion, well, maybe.  Are you so dull you didn't know that?
Call me crazy, but even though I'm not in a court of law, I still think it is better to have a higher burden of proof than "I don't like someone, so therefore anything negative said about them must be true."

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you think Trump's somehow, suddenly an honest man.
Again, Trump's dishonesty does not mean anything negative said about Trump is likely to be true. Also, thinking something about Trump is made up does not mean I think Trump is honest. Finally, while Trump is dishonest, so potentially are any one of his critics. And even if those critics are not dishonest, their bias could make them prone to error.

This is the flaw in your thinking- You can't grasp that level of nuance. It's either one or the other with you. You don't even get how Trump being honest or not is irrelevant to the issue of the material against him being illegitimate.

Quote
Once again, you are showing disregard for the nature of evidence,  What you're calling a "crock of shit" has yet to be shown to be that at all.  No evidence that I know of (and I asked you for any that you have) disputes the key claims.  Am I right?  And again, the claims fit well with what we know about Trump.  That matters, right?
You're confusing accusation with evidence. What you have against Trump are accusations, accompanies by zero evidence.

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But if I was presented with what was said to be a new dinosaur fossil, I would first try to investigate the fossil, and show that it was or wasn't.  Then, let's say, everything about it checks out, you know, based on all we know about dinosaurs.
But there wasn't any evidence it was genuine and in fact, when we've started to dig deeper there is every indication it is just outright fabricated.

Your logic for believing this is "Trump is a scumbag. This stuff says that he is a scumbag, therefore it is likely to be true and should be believed. And this mere accusation is in fact, evidence."


  • Mr C
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2021, 10:23:53 pm »
Call me crazy, but even though I'm not in a court of law, I still think it is better to have a higher burden of proof than "I don't like someone, so therefore anything negative said about them must be true."
Again, Trump's dishonesty does not mean anything negative said about Trump is likely to be true.


I'm not going to keep going with this, but as much you keep deriding me about not understanding this and that, here's a key thing I think you don't understand about human nature.

When someone lies to me once, well, they get the benefit of the doubt, fine.  But if they lie repeatedly, I--and ANY SANE PERSON--stops believing what they say.  When people behave in a constant immoral way, thinking of Trump U, Trump Steaks, etc, going all the way back to the illegal rental redlining, I think they're likely to behave immorally.  You don't like it?  Tough.  Don't be a horrible person.

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Your logic for believing this is "Trump is a scumbag. This stuff says that he is a scumbag, therefore it is likely to be true and should be believed. And this mere accusation is in fact, evidence."


Well, you were right up to the part about "evidence".  The claims aren't evidence, but it does speak loads that none of them have really been taken down.  In five years.  All we do have is a rogue special prosecutor appointed in the flailing final days of the most corrupt DA in US history indicting a lawyer because he "wasn't always consistent" about who was paying him.  Then spending two dozen extra pages making claims without any evidence. 

Whereas you believed all kinds of stuff about Hunter Biden with zero evidence, right?  Don't tell me that's all be shown true, until you can tell me about the key claim--what's on the laptop about his illegal dealings with Burisma.    The right-wing claims fly in the face of what we do know about the case.  Right?


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2021, 12:03:30 pm »
When someone lies to me once, well, they get the benefit of the doubt, fine.  But if they lie repeatedly, I--and ANY SANE PERSON--stops believing what they say.  When people behave in a constant immoral way, thinking of Trump U, Trump Steaks, etc, going all the way back to the illegal rental redlining, I think they're likely to behave immorally.  You don't like it?  Tough.  Don't be a horrible person.
Nut the issue here isn't what Trump said. Trump didn't say a bunch of stuff. A bunch of stuff was said about Trump. You don't evaluate it based on Trump's credibility, you evaluate it based on their credibility and their claim's plausability. Trump hasn't said anything beyond "No, that isn't true.". Apparently, saying "That never happened" is evidence of his guilt.

This is before we get to the fact that the people accusing him- spies, diplomats, and reporters are in three professions not exactly known for their honesty.

Sorry, but that's such a fail of critical thinking. You've essentially said you'll believe anything about Trump and accept it on its face.

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All we do have is a rogue special prosecutor appointed in the flailing final days of the most corrupt DA in US history indicting a lawyer because he "wasn't always consistent" about who was paying him.  Then spending two dozen extra pages making claims without any evidence.
Could well be, hence why I said we have to wait and see if it's just process crimes.  BUT if he did indeed completely fabricate who paid him and what the origin of the information was, that's a serious matter.

Quote
Whereas you believed all kinds of stuff about Hunter Biden with zero evidence, right?  Don't tell me that's all be shown true, until you can tell me about the key claim--what's on the laptop about his illegal dealings with Burisma.    The right-wing claims fly in the face of what we do know about the case.  Right?
I specfically said I don't think Joe Biden was involved. I also said Hunter Bidrn's behavior was consistent with that of an addict and both possible and plausible. I for one, did not buy the more ridiculous claims. I explicitly predicted there would be nothing implicating Joe Biden on them.

Anyways the laptop has been authenticated as Hunter Biden's, something the media and many on the left blasted as a conspiracy theory and refused to believe. Whether there's anything of substance on it remains to be seen.

I think you would have been better off showing similar restraint when it came to Trump-Russia and especially the Steele Dossier.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 12:07:03 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


  • hangook77
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2021, 12:06:00 pm »
Is the Russia conspiracy theory still going on?  Yes, Hillary Clinton lost because Vladimir farted. 
745sticky, Augustiner, Bakeacake, D.L.Orean, Lazio, Mithras, Renma, Rye are losers who are blocked.  Good riddance to them. They will still be in Korea 10 years from now unless they are retired.  Either way, they will be poor since all they know how to do is troll rather than work for something more


Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2021, 01:09:51 pm »
I know that you love to discredit the Steele dossier and insist it was what initiated the Russian investigation, but that tip off from Alexander Downer, a diplomat and conservative ally of the United States, after that dunken boasting from George Demetrios Papadopoulos in a British Pub is what kicked everything off!
If you read what Downer said Papadopolous said, there's no reason it should have served as the basis for an investigation of that scope.


  • 745sticky
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Re: trump and Russia
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2021, 08:08:23 am »
In a court of law, no.  In the court of public opinion, well, maybe. 

i mean, isnt it the court of law thats relevant here? my issue with the russia stuff is that it was a losing strategy that didnt get him out of office (it was the pandemic that did him in imho) and didnt get him in jail. sure it was a juicy tidbit for their base but the court of public opinion in that particular sector already hated him and probably always will.