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  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 823

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #260 on: December 30, 2020, 01:18:36 pm »
What are the chances that if any one of these "it's impossible" situations occurred to DM in the US, it would be symptomatic of modern Americans' lack of gumption, a result of pampered upbringings, lax discipline, liberal education, bad parenting and a culture of entitlement?

But in Korea, it's because foreigners are hostile, stupid and intoxicated by the power of food customization.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #261 on: December 30, 2020, 01:25:53 pm »
Take a look at that video that I posted (or another one of the "Computer says no" clips from Little Britain). Your take on this whole issue is equivalent to:

1) wondering why there's laughter when the woman refuses to override the computer commands with common sense decisions

2) insisting that the computer does, in fact, say "no", and this should be the final word on the subject

3) getting exasperated that people refuse to bow to the computer's authority

4) assuming that people who don't treat the character in the video with appropriate deference are spoiled, culturally insular, unaccustomed to service industry work and prone to making unreasonable demands of workers

5) extrapolating this situation into a mean-spirited critique of British culture and ethnicity
Yeah, except you and Aristocrat both explicitly mentioned Korea. You didn't make this about customer service in general, there was an emphasis on the Koreanness of it all. As for mean-spirited, well that's debatable. It certainly wasn't in the spirit of camaraderie. There was a distinct "us vs. them" aspect to it. You can still tell the story and have it in Korea and not have it be about culture.

You're contradicting yourself, as usual.

Earlier, you claimed culture was a lazy argument and that there were many other factors in play when it comes to explaining people's behaviour. Now, you're claiming that if culture was a legitimate argument, all Koreans would be doing the same thing. So, you're implying that culture is responsible for every aspect of every person's behaviour.
No, I'm trying to hold you to a consistent standard and point out YOUR contradiction. If culture was a legitimate argument, then what you encountered should have been the norm. It wasn't.

Your application of "culture" seems to be completely arbitrary. Why wasn't it "culture" when those employees DID fulfill your request? Why is THAT going against culture?  There appears to be no objective criteria other than "If they do something that makes me happy, I'll say they're doing it in spite of their culture, but if they do something that pisses me off, I'll blame their culture."

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I've never targeted race or ethnicity, skin pigment has no influence on behaviour.
Well, I wouldn't say targeted, but you do seem to be a bit inconsistent with how you apply culture and seem to rather liberally apply it more to specific ethnicities compared to others.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #262 on: December 30, 2020, 01:28:47 pm »
What are the chances that if any one of these "it's impossible" situations occurred to DM in the US, it would be symptomatic of modern Americans' lack of gumption, a result of pampered upbringings, lax discipline, liberal education, bad parenting and a culture of entitlement?
Having worked in food service and dealt with constant inane requests and the explosion of customization demands, probably nil. I tend to side with the workers. I also didn't make anything more than the most basic requests. Even when I was a vegetarian I never bitched and moaned and made demands or a big deal.

Some of us don't confuse a trip to Denny's with hiring a private chef.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 823

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #263 on: December 30, 2020, 02:01:02 pm »
So now we get to the root cause of your total misconstrual of everything that's gone on here. You had some bad experiences involving food customization requests in the US, saw a few trigger words on here, made a sweeping series of assumptions and decided that your past experience was relevant to the conversation, when it's actually not. Apart from Baskin Robbins, none of the examples involved franchises, despite your insistence otherwise, and none of them involved food customization of the sort that's gotten you so worked up. You're tilting at windmills.

Let's just remind ourselves that this comment:

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Remember they weren't discussing hierarchical cultures or franchise food service culture but Korean culture.

was prompted by this:

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the "Can't do" attitude of some Korean businesses can really pull the rug from under you sometimes.

A sensible person reads this as "I usually have normal, unremarkable experiences at Korean businesses. Isn't it weird when you come up against some surprising intransigence?"

But anyway, sorry about all the crappy experiences you had working in food service. I had a lot of them too, and I feel you on the customization issue. That's why I would never engage in that behavior.


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2087

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #264 on: December 30, 2020, 02:05:41 pm »
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Kind of like the way you attack UK culture by referencing football violence?
You really didn't understand that whole thing did you? The reason I brought that up was to hold the people making the culture argument to the same standard. If you're going to rant about crime or violence in Korea and problems using certain criteria, do you apply that to hooliganism as well and blame British culture? As I say in those, I don't think it IS fair to blame British culture, but if that's the standard you apply then what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I didn't understand it the way you used it no. Because your tactic was to bring up football hooliganism when someone was having a go at a much more general cultural phenomenon and compare them as equals. E.g. Why do people spit so much here? Why are you complaining about that when people in the West are killing each other over football matches?  That's usually the gist of your argument


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #265 on: December 30, 2020, 02:16:28 pm »
I didn't understand it the way you used it no. Because your tactic was to bring up football hooliganism when someone was having a go at a much more general cultural phenomenon and compare them as equals. E.g. Why do people spit so much here? Why are you complaining about that when people in the West are killing each other over football matches?  That's usually the gist of your argument
Well, that's because you don't read it carefully. Go pull the actual quotes.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #266 on: December 30, 2020, 02:22:11 pm »
So now we get to the root cause of your total misconstrual of everything that's gone on here. You had some bad experiences involving food customization requests in the US, saw a few trigger words on here, made a sweeping series of assumptions and decided that your past experience was relevant to the conversation, when it's actually not. Apart from Baskin Robbins, none of the examples involved franchises, despite your insistence otherwise, and none of them involved food customization of the sort that's gotten you so worked up. You're tilting at windmills.

Let's just remind ourselves that this comment:

was prompted by this:

A sensible person reads this as "I usually have normal, unremarkable experiences at Korean businesses. Isn't it weird when you come up against some surprising intransigence?"

But anyway, sorry about all the crappy experiences you had working in food service. I had a lot of them too, and I feel you on the customization issue. That's why I would never engage in that behavior.
I understand what you're saying. I'll decouple you from Aristocrat in this, which I probably should have done before this. I agree, your explanations make it clear you have a more nuanced view of the situation. I'll accept them and agree with your claim as it pertains to the examples you were making.

I will say in Aristocrat's case this adds more to the culture and rant aspect-
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Aside from critical thinking and creativity that is somewhat discouraged in Korean education, a Japanese guy was discussing how, at a cultural level, the Japanese are generally a very risk averse people. Perhaps a similar hypothesis can be used to explain this behaviour in Korea; people don't want to risk not following protocol to the letter.


  • 745sticky
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1226

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #267 on: December 30, 2020, 02:27:12 pm »
Yes, that's my point. The people blaming "culture" are taking a very complicated question and applying a very simplistic answer. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you saying their internet rant is a piece of carefully considered material?
Who are "these people" and when have they said this? If you're going to cite something, please cite it specifically. I can't read your mind and know exactly what you are referring to.


It is when you also state that their behavior is not the norm and that other people of the same people did something completely different. Remember they weren't discussing hierarchical cultures or franchise food service culture but Korean culture.
While not the same level of bad act, it's akin to labeling terrorist bombings as Muslim culture or drive-by shootings as black culture. It's the same kind of observation. I mean we have posters on here who regularly post rants about those two respective cultures and I think many of us think there's more than just cultural frustration behind that and they have some issues and their obsession is "pretty f*cked up."
Here we are again with the over-exaggerations and histrionics. I suspect that at least part of the reason nobody takes your opinions on these subjects seriously is that you continuously interpret everything in the worst way possible (often changing the framing or decontextualizing what they said) and then insist on likening it to the most egregious acts of racism imaginable.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2496

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #268 on: December 31, 2020, 07:52:19 am »
Who are "these people" and when have they said this? If you're going to cite something, please cite it specifically. I can't read your mind and know exactly what you are referring to.
"The people" are called "strawmen" and they exist only in DMT's brain.

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Here we are again with the over-exaggerations and histrionics. I suspect that at least part of the reason nobody takes your opinions on these subjects seriously is that you continuously interpret everything in the worst way possible (often changing the framing or decontextualizing what they said) and then insist on likening it to the most egregious acts of racism imaginable.

A "debate" with him is like a textbook exercise in "identify the logical fallacy".


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #269 on: December 31, 2020, 10:21:56 am »
"The people" are called "strawmen" and they exist only in DMT's brain.
A "debate" with him is like a textbook exercise in "identify the logical fallacy".
Care to explain the "logic" of using a 1/10 example to condemn the culture of the other 9/10 and declaring it to be the norm?

You think any poster on here isnt making constant logical fallacies? Please enlighten us O Surak, who be the Sarek amongst us?


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2496

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #270 on: December 31, 2020, 11:26:09 am »
Care to explain the "logic" of using a 1/10 example to condemn the culture of the other 9/10 and declaring it to be the norm?

See, you don't even get that that's you!
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You think any poster on here isnt making constant logical fallacies? Please enlighten us O Surak, who be the Sarek amongst us?

Dude, no one is perfect.  Everyone here knows that and takes it into account.  And no--no one else is making constant logical fallacies.   



Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #271 on: December 31, 2020, 11:33:55 am »
I have a question.  Why do many older Koreans (especially the ladies) have very bowed legs?  Obviously I assume this Confucianism or so they're closer to the ground for spitting, but really, why do they?


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2087

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #272 on: December 31, 2020, 11:37:55 am »
I have a question.  Why do many older Koreans (especially the ladies) have very bowed legs?  Obviously I assume this Confucianism or so they're closer to the ground for spitting, but really, why do they?

Nice DM bait but I'll suggest an answer anyway. Lack of vitamin D and rickets


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #273 on: December 31, 2020, 03:58:01 pm »
See, you don't even get that that's you!
You don't even get that's you too as well as everyone else.

If you think it isn't, basically the totality of research into human cognition and behavior would like to have a word with you.

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Dude, no one is perfect.  Everyone here knows that and takes it into account.  And no--no one else is making constant logical fallacies.   

Really? You don't think anyone else is making constant logical fallacies? I bet if you went through the comments here, you'd find logical fallacies all over the place with virtually every post people make.

I mean, this isn't a logical fallacy per se, but have you done any analysis? Have you tracked people's posts and counted the number of fallacies per post?

And again, basically all of science would disagree that I am the exception and everyone else is the norm. We're all the norm- highly illogical and irrational.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4421

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #274 on: January 01, 2021, 05:05:31 pm »
I have a question.  Why do many older Koreans (especially the ladies) have very bowed legs?  Obviously I assume this Confucianism or so they're closer to the ground for spitting, but really, why do they?

Decades of sitting cross legged on the floor


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4729

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #275 on: January 01, 2021, 08:58:41 pm »
Is the broom short to fit the hunched-over old woman, or is the old woman hunched-over from using a short broom all her life?


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1970

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #276 on: January 04, 2021, 09:36:13 am »
I have a question.  Why do many older Koreans (especially the ladies) have very bowed legs?  Obviously I assume this Confucianism or so they're closer to the ground for spitting, but really, why do they?
Rickets.

Bowed legs and spinal curvature are classic signs of rickets. This is caused by insufficient intake of vitamin D and, to a lesser extent, calcium. Rickets is fairly common in developing countries where dairy is absent from diet, and where there is not sufficient access to vitamin supplements.

Keep in mind that during the time when many of these women where developing, Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world, and their diets consisted almost entirely of cereals (ie, rice).


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #277 on: January 04, 2021, 09:48:25 am »
Rickets.

Bowed legs and spinal curvature are classic signs of rickets. This is caused by insufficient intake of vitamin D and, to a lesser extent, calcium. Rickets is fairly common in developing countries where dairy is absent from diet, and where there is not sufficient access to vitamin supplements.

Keep in mind that during the time when many of these women where developing, Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world, and their diets consisted almost entirely of cereals (ie, rice).

True. I think it's a big part of the reason you see old woman with ridiculously crooked spines... that and a lifetime of bending over, working the rice fields on a diet of rice and water.

Funnily enough, I've heard that bowed legs was considered a female beauty standard in Japan.


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1970

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #278 on: January 04, 2021, 09:59:39 am »
I've heard that too.
The bones in your legs are naturally curved a bit. This tiny amount of curvature is ever-so-slightly more pronounced in women due to the shape of their pelvis and the subsequent proportionately wider spacing of the hip joints.
Because somebody with almost zero body fat is going to have super skinny legs, that curvature would be far more noticeable than on somebody with a healthy layer of fat and muscle.
Skinny is attractive in Japan (just like in most Western societies, I guess).

Or maybe they just really like adjummas!  :laugh:

On a vaguely related note, being slightly snaggle toothed is also considered attractive there. My teeth are, of course, perfect, but I do have pronounced canines, which a number of people have complimented me for back when I lived there. Was a bit weird maybe, but hey, compliments are compliments!  :azn:


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2087

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #279 on: January 04, 2021, 10:53:06 am »
Quote
ecember 31, 2020, 11:33:55 am
I have a question.  Why do many older Koreans (especially the ladies) have very bowed legs?  Obviously I assume this Confucianism or so they're closer to the ground for spitting, but really, why do they?       

This is probably due to a medical condition known as 'rickets' caused by a lack of vitamin D.