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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #180 on: December 24, 2020, 12:42:01 pm »
being disgusted by people spitting in public when you're fine with pets shitting/pissing in public is a double standard (according to martino).
(@martino I believe that summarizes your main point accurately, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me)
Pretty much.

People claim its okay for pets because they're animals, but I'm not talking wild animals, talking trained pets whose owners make a conscious choice to have them shit and piss on public property. Sometimes even on private property.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #181 on: December 24, 2020, 12:46:44 pm »
You are literally the only person who has mentioned "cuteness"
It's the reason. Claims about disease (for the most part and with most people) are justifications, not actual reasons.

It's like elites who want to ban smoking in dives and use "employee health". They dont really give a shit about that. They're just using it as justification for their legislation based on personal preference and need to control.


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #182 on: December 24, 2020, 12:47:40 pm »
i'm not sure how you can equate the control you have over whether or not you yourself spit somewhere with the control you have over when and where your pet decides to pee. my intuition is that it's obvious that any person has more control over oneself than they do over any other thing/person/animal, but maaaaaaan this is NOT the fish i'm trying to fry on christmas eve
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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #183 on: December 24, 2020, 01:10:58 pm »
i'm not sure how you can equate the control you have over whether or not you yourself spit somewhere with the control you have over when and where your pet decides to pee. my intuition is that it's obvious that any person has more control over oneself than they do over any other thing/person/animal, but maaaaaaan this is NOT the fish i'm trying to fry on christmas eve
The pet owner has control over:
1) Whether or not to purchase a pet in the first place.
2) Where to house that pet
3) Whether to have that pet piss and shit on their property or on public property

Seems like pet owners have a lot of control to me. They chose to buy a pet. They chose to house it in a place where they didn't have their own yard or whatever, they chose to not use pee pads and instead have their dog piss and shit in public.

Pretty f*ing disgusting and selfish if you ask me.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #184 on: December 24, 2020, 01:20:49 pm »
Dude, we get it. You like to smoke, you like to spit, you're an ajeossi that isn't cute.

No amount of your whataboutisms will make us think that's OK, leave the keyboard and go for a smoke.


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #185 on: December 24, 2020, 01:25:55 pm »
The pet owner has control over:
1) Whether or not to purchase a pet in the first place.
2) Where to house that pet
3) Whether to have that pet piss and shit on their property or on public property

Seems like pet owners have a lot of control to me. They chose to buy a pet. They chose to house it in a place where they didn't have their own yard or whatever, they chose to not use pee pads and instead have their dog piss and shit in public.

Pretty f*ing disgusting and selfish if you ask me.

Owners should clear up dog number twos I think we can all agree on that. Re dog number ones, for most dogs the highlight of their day is to go for a walk and mark their territory with their urine so it'd be pretty cruel to keep a dog permanently in the house/back yard . It might be selfish towards other people but it's definitely putting the dog's best interests first. Most people who don't own dogs probably accept this very minor annoyance on their streets, so that people in towns/cities can have the freedom to keep a dog in a decent mental condition.  Remember dogs are often lonely people's only friend


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #186 on: December 24, 2020, 01:26:36 pm »
Dude, we get it. You like to smoke, you like to spit, you're an ajeossi that isn't cute.

No amount of your whataboutisms will make us think that's OK, leave the keyboard and go for a smoke.
Can you admit that your belief that it isn't "ok" is irrational and that if you are fine with pets pissing and shitting in public, you're a total hypocrite and have no logical basis for your complaint?

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'd see that I wasn't 100% okay with people smoking.

Anyways, how do you feel about joggers or footballers spitting back home? Because you'd basically have to call anyone who plays organized professional sports an uncivilized barbarian because guess what? They all spit constantly.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #187 on: December 24, 2020, 01:27:07 pm »
Owners should clear up dog number twos I think we can all agree on that. Re dog number ones, for most dogs the highlight of their day is to go for a walk and mark their territory with their urine so it'd be pretty cruel to keep a dog permanently in the house/back yard . It might be selfish towards other people but it's definitely putting the dog's best interests first. Most people who don't own dogs probably accept this very minor annoyance on their streets, so that people in towns/cities can have the freedom to keep a dog in a decent mental condition.  Remember dogs are often lonely people's only friend
Then don't buy a damn dog if it's cruel to keep it in a small back yard or inside. A pet is a responsibility, not a toy.  Sorry city people, dogs aren't a toy. Sorry, but if you are such an emotional wreck and for whatever damn reason you NEED a dog (not counting disability/emotional support animals), then the problem is with you. You're the one who needs to get their shit together and find out why you need a dog to fill a void to the point that you will buy one even though you don't have the appropriate facilities to keep one and then outsource its filth onto public streets for everyone else to deal with.

You call it a minor annoyance, spitting should be viewed the same way if you're rational and consistent. But seems like most people here aren't. So far only Mister Tim and to some extent, Chinguetti have been able to understand that yeah, it sort of is a bit hypocritical to bitch and moan about spitters but be fine with pet dogs pissing everywhere.

Stop buying dogs. Get a damn cat or a guinea pig. Problem f*ing solved.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 01:32:44 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #188 on: December 24, 2020, 01:44:52 pm »
Can you admit that your belief that it isn't "ok" is irrational and that if you are fine with pets pissing and shitting in public, you're a total hypocrite and have no logical basis for your complaint?

If you read what I wrote carefully, you'd see that I wasn't 100% okay with people smoking.

Anyways, how do you feel about joggers or footballers spitting back home? Because you'd basically have to call anyone who plays organized professional sports an uncivilized barbarian because guess what? They all spit constantly.

No, I will not admit that my belief is irrational.  I think it is perfectly rational not to like people spitting in public places.  I am also well aware that people can play football or go jogging in any country so am not entirely sure what you are arguing about there.  But as a former member of a jogging club both here and in other countries, I am pleased to say there was very little to no spitting.  But I guess Paula Radcliffe 'back home' in the 2005 London marathon will always be remembered for her pitstop.

As I said, if you choose to spit when you smoke, that is your choice, but you will be hard pressed finding people that will excuse you due to you giving other examples.  When I smoke, I choose not to spit, many will think I'm an uncivilised barbarian for smoking, I'm not going to try and give them other examples of bad things to try and make myself seem better.


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #189 on: December 24, 2020, 01:54:39 pm »
Then don't buy a damn dog if it's cruel to keep it in a small back yard or inside. A pet is a responsibility, not a toy.  Sorry city people, dogs aren't a toy. Sorry, but if you are such an emotional wreck and for whatever damn reason you NEED a dog (not counting disability/emotional support animals), then the problem is with you. You're the one who needs to get their shit together and find out why you need a dog to fill a void to the point that you will buy one even though you don't have the appropriate facilities to keep one and then outsource its filth onto public streets for everyone else to deal with.

You call it a minor annoyance, spitting should be viewed the same way if you're rational and consistent. But seems like most people here aren't. So far only Mister Tim and to some extent, Chinguetti have been able to understand that yeah, it sort of is a bit hypocritical to bitch and moan about spitters but be fine with pet dogs pissing everywhere.

Stop buying dogs. Get a damn cat or a guinea pig. Problem f*ing solved.

As I said, most people are prepared to put up with very minor inconveniences to enable others to have certain freedoms. I imagine you're the kind of person who would be in favour of stopping people  travelling with little kids on aeroplanes. They don't have to have kids or choose to travel abroad with them so why should it annoy other passengers etc. 

As for spitting, you could make a medical case to be tolerant about it but I think you'd be pushed to make a case that you're limiting someone's freedom to live the life they choose, by banning it. 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 01:56:16 pm by stoat »


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #190 on: December 24, 2020, 01:55:54 pm »
The hilarious thing about this is that DeMartino is obviously disgusted by animals urinating and defecating in public, but has spent half the thread making justifications for Korean spitting habits and then claiming that if you're not equally disgusted by both, you're a hypocrite.

I think it's clear that he knows spitting in the uniquely Korean way that we've all witnessed thousands of times is wrong, but can't let go of the defend-Korea-at-all-costs impulse, so he tried to derail the argument by pretending we were actually talking about farmers spitting in their own fields, or a jogger who inhales a bug, or someone discreetly shooting a bit of spit into a dark alley. If you have to work that hard to avoid the real topic of conversation, your argument is probably not a very good one.

Waygook.org, 2024...

Joe Teacher: I live on a street in Seoul covered in dog feces and puddles of urine. I see pet owners letting their dogs do their business there all day long, and nobody cleans it up, nobody calls out this profoundly antisocial behavior. It's a shame that Korean culture is one of few in the world where this is acceptable, particularly now that we're in the middle of a pandemic caused by a virus whose main vector of transmission is dog waste...

DeMartino: Oh my god, I cannot believe how irrational you are. Can you just admit that you don't like dogs because you think cats are cuter? If a wolf pees against a tree in the middle of a forest, who cares? This isn't about public health, this is about an authoritarian desire to control nature by culling the wolf population. Seriously, you're upset about a dingo having a bowel movement behind a bush in the outback? Get some perspective, people.


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #191 on: December 24, 2020, 02:17:25 pm »
Then don't buy a damn dog if it's cruel to keep it in a small back yard or inside.

you've set up a false dichotomy: (1) own enough land to let a pet roam free or (2) don't own a pet. there is the obvious (3) own a pet and take it to dog parks or other public places where pets are allowed to roam.

and as for the control argument... a dog owners choice to buy a dog does not necessarily lead to peeing in public (you've mentioned pee pads), so it's irrelevant to the discussion. dog owners have less control over their dogs (at any given time) than spitters do over their own mouths. that's why we can hold spitters more responsible for their public spitting than dog owners for dogs peeing in public.
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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #192 on: December 24, 2020, 02:18:35 pm »
No, I will not admit that my belief is irrational.  I think it is perfectly rational not to like people spitting in public places. 
It is if you are consistent about similar things. If you aren't consistent then it's about as rational as saying "my music is better than your music." You aren't basing it off of reason, but emotion.

Quote
I am also well aware that people can play football or go jogging in any country so am not entirely sure what you are arguing about there.  But as a former member of a jogging club both here and in other countries, I am pleased to say there was very little to no spitting.
BBC seems to disagree with you. Once again "We don't do behavior X back home" (which in actuality is often done) strikes again.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13134283

Heck, our cross country coach back home told everyone to spit and not swallow or hold it in.

Quote
I'm not going to try and give them other examples of bad things to try and make myself seem better.
It's about applying consistent rational standards, not relying on base emotions to dictate what is right and wrong. Lets create a system for regulating public expectoration and defecation of citizens and pets. I'm all for it, but if we're going to have a system, we have to apply consistent principles.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #193 on: December 24, 2020, 02:20:46 pm »
As I said, most people are prepared to put up with very minor inconveniences to enable others to have certain freedoms. I imagine you're the kind of person who would be in favour of stopping people  travelling with little kids on aeroplanes. They don't have to have kids or choose to travel abroad with them so why should it annoy other passengers etc. 

As for spitting, you could make a medical case to be tolerant about it but I think you'd be pushed to make a case that you're limiting someone's freedom to live the life they choose, by banning it.
I say let people spit in dingy alleys and the like or into a bush or down a drain and let dogs do what they do.

But if you're going to go after me, I'm going to go after your f*ing mutt or something else you do. You're not the f*ing king. You want to regulate something I do? Fine, I'm going to try to regulate something you do.

Or we could let bygones be bygones and grudgingly tolerate (or in my case, genuinely not give a shit) things like that and live with fewer regulations.

Your choice.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #194 on: December 24, 2020, 02:22:56 pm »
or someone discreetly shooting a bit of spit into a dark alley. If you have to work that hard to avoid the real topic of conversation, your argument is probably not a very good one.
Too bad you didn't read what I wrote, otherwise you would have seen that this has been my position from the getgo and that more than that I find too much. But if you're going to come in my direction, I'll go back in yours. This isn't YOU up here who gets to make rules and me who has to eat them. There's give and take in all of this.


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2020, 02:24:38 pm »
Can you admit that your belief that it isn't "ok" is irrational and that if you are fine with pets pissing and shitting in public, you're a total hypocrite and have no logical basis for your complaint?


It's not my week of Martino sentry duty, so I just have one quick question.  Every time this issue of horking on the sidewalk, elevators, ATM booths and the subway platforms comes up DMart always makes the above claim; how it's hypocritical to be ok with one and not the the other.  However, for the life of me I can't seem to find on any of the threads where someone actually made the above statement.  Well, I can find numerous instances of Martino making the statement. But what set him off was that people were ok with pets pissing and shitting in elevators and sidewalks and building foyers, but had a problem with people spitting in said places.  I can't find the post where someone made that assertion.  It's almost like he made a claim, attributed it to the board at large, and is now arguing against his own declaration. 

So, my question, obviously, is why do Koreans hate clean floors so much?


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2020, 02:28:46 pm »
"We don't do behavior X back home"

Again, I'm sorry my post does not meet your narrative.  I clearly said that both here, and other countries, jogging groups I have been in have had very little spitting. 

Your need to defend Korea doesn't work this time, I have not made it a Korea Vs the world thing.   I have clearly said that you aren't likely to find anyone here, no matter what justification you put forward who will agree that spitting in the street whilst having a smoke is a good thing.

If you are able to find other posters who agree, good for you.  If you are not, well, I'll ignore this until the thread "Where are the best places to visit in Jeju" or similar turns into you trying to justify it again.

Merry Christmas, I'll be spending mine with good whiskey, some lovely smokes and a spit free environment.


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2020, 02:29:29 pm »
you've set up a false dichotomy: (1) own enough land to let a pet roam free or (2) don't own a pet. there is the obvious (3) own a pet and take it to dog parks or other public places where pets are allowed to roam.

and as for the control argument... a dog owners choice to buy a dog does not necessarily lead to peeing in public (you've mentioned pee pads), so it's irrelevant to the discussion. dog owners have less control over their dogs (at any given time) than spitters do over their own mouths. that's why we can hold spitters more responsible for their public spitting than dog owners for dogs peeing in public.
I have no problem with public dog parks, but if the dog pisses or shits between your house and your park, then their owner should be fined, same as a spitter. You don't need a damn dog. If you can't control it, then you shouldn't own it. Dog owners have made a series of conscious decisions that have led to the point of their dog shitting and pissing on public property. This could have been stopped by 1) Not buying a damn dog. 2) Keeping their damn dog inside or on their property. 3) Training their dog not to shit or piss in public. 4) Taking sanitizers and a mop to clean after their pet's piss along with them on a walk.   

Also spitting, at times, can be an involuntary reflex or at the very least compete with another reflex (personally in my case, it's running up against my gag reflex).


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Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #198 on: December 24, 2020, 02:30:09 pm »
It's not my week of Martino sentry duty,

Hear that, guys? OnNut is on the case :)
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!


Re: Answers to burning questions we have about Korea
« Reply #199 on: December 24, 2020, 02:34:21 pm »
Again, I'm sorry my post does not meet your narrative.  I clearly said that both here, and other countries, jogging groups I have been in have had very little spitting. 
Clearly though, you are simply supplying an anecdote, because it appears that overall such groups do engage in a lot of spitting, otherwise it wouldn't be a global news item.

Quote
   I have clearly said that you aren't likely to find anyone here, no matter what justification you put forward who will agree that spitting in the street whilst having a smoke is a good thing.
I don't think it's a good thing either. I simply said that people should have a consistent regard for such expectorations and defecations. Most don't seem to. For them, it simply is "one I think is cute, the other I don't."


It's not my week of Martino sentry duty, so I just have one quick question.  Every time this issue of horking on the sidewalk, elevators, ATM booths and the subway platforms comes up DMart always makes the above claim; how it's hypocritical to be ok with one and not the the other.  However, for the life of me I can't seem to find on any of the threads where someone actually made the above statement.  Well, I can find numerous instances of Martino making the statement. But what set him off was that people were ok with pets pissing and shitting in elevators and sidewalks and building foyers, but had a problem with people spitting in said places.  I can't find the post where someone made that assertion.  It's almost like he made a claim, attributed it to the board at large, and is now arguing against his own declaration. 
It is implied that people are okay with it given the various comments we've seen regarding pets as well as the lack of complaint about pets peeing and pooping on public streets. A phenomenon every bit as common as spitting but seems to not draw the same amount of ire, despite both being under the complete control of human beings.