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  • SPQR
  • Expert Waygook

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    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Have a Happy Deathgiving
« on: November 24, 2020, 01:44:11 pm »


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2020, 05:57:01 pm »
Of all the things that European imperialists did, the absolute dumbest is to blame them for the various epidemics that devastated native populations. No one at the time anywhere in the world had the slightest clue about how infectious diseases worked. There was also every chance that some disease would have gone back across the ocean (and some did). Yes you get various things like smallpox blankest and so one, but that wasn't what caused most of the death.

This is just one of those things where you have to say "tough shit" and "you drew the short end".


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 07:58:52 pm »
There seemed some rudimentary knowledge at least by the time of the late 18th century.
Most of the major epidemics were in the 16th century. That's what took the population down by 90%. I would blame Columbus & Co. for many things, but not understanding that they would be bringing an untold number of biological contaminants is not one of them.

Smallpox blankets and other primitive forms of biological warfare were known, but it they didn't understand why. Only that "if you give blanket of person with smallpox (or other diseases) to enemy, enemy get sick."


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 08:33:25 pm »
"if you give blanket of person with smallpox (or other diseases) to enemy, enemy get sick."

Columbus spread savage speech among Indian man too, long use to mock Indian man?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Trump-drunk aunt from hot-spot Wisconsin would like to visit my 80-something grandma over the holidays out in Arizona where she lives with my other aunt, who is not part of the cult but also has made questionable choices during the pandemic like flying out to see her daughter and her daughter’s newborn in Wisconsin over the summer when Arizona was the virus hotspot. Second aunt tells the first aunt that she can visit, but that she would have to get tested for coronavirus before she comes and that she would have to wear a mask around my truly frail grandmother. First aunt, bristling at these restrictions, says she might not visit after all, not because she realized that it was a bad idea and that even if she got tested before her flight that leaves the entire flight and airport time to get infected, but because the thought of wearing a mask around her vulnerable mother turns her off.

“Give me liberty and my mother’s death, or give me death!”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, while the virus rages in Wisconsin and I contemplate returning there from the relative safety of Korea, I’m told that I need to quarantine for at least two weeks after my flight if I am to participate in my clinical practicum. Like, staying in Korea as long as possible is the safest “quarantine” I can imagine.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 09:08:41 pm by Don Hobak »


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2020, 12:59:46 pm »
Happy Deathgiving is the word!

You can never be thankful for anyone spreading COVID-19 on you
and placing your life at risk.


  • Liechtenstein
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1303

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2020, 02:22:29 pm »
The freedom of death more like it. Democracy kills in this case.


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2020, 07:44:56 pm »
Does anyone else appreciate the fact that this disease barely would have been a fart in the wind 140 years ago because most of the people it kills would have already been dead? For 99.999% of humanity's existence this disease would mean jack shit.

"Old person died of the coughs" only became news post-Cold War.

The thing is, maybe we need to understand that biological lifeforms, for the most part, at least complex animals generally don't do well when they reach old age and that's natural. I mean, diseases are going to crop up all the time and the elderly are going to be the most vulnerable. If we're going to do this every time and have society on virtual lockdown, maybe we need to consider whether that is all really worth it as a permanent way of life and if we're really making the best choice there.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1964

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2020, 08:54:08 pm »
Quote
 
The average age at death for those who died with Covid-19 in Scotland was 79 for men and 84 for women. Elsewhere in the NRS report it showed that life expectancy in Scotland is 77.1 for males and 81.1 for females.   

From the BBC

Looks like the fried Mars bars will get you before Covid does


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2020, 10:09:17 pm »
maybe we need to consider whether that is all really worth it as a permanent way of life and if we're really making the best choice there.

Hardly permanent. Three very promising vaccines are nearing the end of the pipeline right now and more sure to follow soon, so if we all can keep strapped in for a few more months weíll get to that light at the end of the tunnel and prevent the premature end of hundreds of thousands of lives, which, I dunno, sounds like a worthy goal. Isnít a measure of modern civilized society how well it protects its most vulnerable? If extending human life wasnít a long standing goal of society you wouldnít see Scotland with an average life expectancy of around 80 years. You have multiple tech titans who deem it a noble cause to throw millions upon millions of dollars hoping to secure immortality for themselves; why donít we all throw a little effort at helping a vast number of less-resourced individuals extend their worthwhile lives several more years ó if not decades ó as well, especially given that 4-5 more months is far from permanent. As for the people who die from the virus who are not elderly:
Quote
More than one third of Hispanic decedents (34.9%) and nearly one third (29.5%) of nonwhite decedents were aged <65 years,...13.2% of white decedents were aged <65 years. Consistent with reports describing the characteristics of deaths in persons with COVID-19 in the United States and China (2Ė5), approximately three fourths of decedents had one or more underlying medical conditions reported (76.4%).
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e1.htm


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1964

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 10:19:05 pm »
Quote
Hardly permanent. Three very promising vaccines are nearing the end of the pipeline right now and more sure to follow soon, so if we all can keep strapped in for a few more months weíll get to that light at the end of the tunnel and prevent the premature end of hundreds of thousands of lives, which, I dunno, sounds like a worthy goal. Isnít a measure of modern civilized society how well it protects its most vulnerable?

So what happens when the next virus comes along?, judging by the number of people in the UK in power saying how we didn't lock down early enough for this one  it'll be instant for the next one.  It's a zero sum game, plenty of people are dying and will die due to Covid restrictions. E.g.

Coronavirus: 50,000 cases of cancer left undiagnosed due to Covid disruption, research shows
This figure could double to 100,000 by October 2021 if cancer care services not fully restored, warns Macmillan Cancer Support

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-cancer-cases-covid-services-uk-macmillan-b1398672.html

So you can dispense with the lefty tactic of trying to divide everyone into those who care about people and those who don't.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 10:49:11 pm by stoat »


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 4406

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2020, 03:31:07 am »
So what happens when the next virus comes along?, judging by the number of people in the UK in power saying how we didn't lock down early enough for this one  it'll be instant for the next one.  It's a zero sum game, plenty of people are dying and will die due to Covid restrictions. E.g.

Coronavirus: 50,000 cases of cancer left undiagnosed due to Covid disruption, research shows
This figure could double to 100,000 by October 2021 if cancer care services not fully restored, warns Macmillan Cancer Support

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-cancer-cases-covid-services-uk-macmillan-b1398672.html

So you can dispense with the lefty tactic of trying to divide everyone into those who care about people and those who don't.


What happens next  time is that we'll be better prepared and, hopefully, won't have leaders who even with their supposed billions of dollars couldn't buy a clue.

As for those on the right not caring, their actions are a clear indicator of where they stand.


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2020, 03:36:30 am »
So what happens when the next virus comes along?, judging by the number of people in the UK in power saying how we didn't lock down early enough for this one  it'll be instant for the next one.  It's a zero sum game, plenty of people are dying and will die due to Covid restrictions. E.g.

Coronavirus: 50,000 cases of cancer left undiagnosed due to Covid disruption, research shows
This figure could double to 100,000 by October 2021 if cancer care services not fully restored, warns Macmillan Cancer Support

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-cancer-cases-covid-services-uk-macmillan-b1398672.html

So you can dispense with the lefty tactic of trying to divide everyone into those who care about people and those who don't.

Is not seeking medical treatment for suspected cancer seriously a restriction put in place in the UK to prevent the spread of coronavirus? No wonder Johnson is getting such bad press these days.

Iím not sure which international leftist cabal you take me to be a member of (or maybe thereís ultimately just one) but I think you and I are actually in agreement on this. As oglop noted earlier, the point of covid restrictions and any lockdown at this point is to prevent the medical system from becoming overrun with covid patients so that people with say, cancer, can get the treatment they need. Likewise, I donít know about you, but if I had cancer, even if I were younger than 65, Iíd sure be worried about getting covid given my underlying medical condition, and I would sure hope that those around me and my fellow countrymen would take the collective (socialist, if not downright communist, really) effort slow the spread of the disease (masking, distancing, etc) so that I might have a better chance of surviving my cancer. Iím not sure where you got the idea that covid precautions were putting people with preexisting conditions at risk. (https://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatments-and-side-effects/physical-side-effects/low-blood-counts/infections.html) As far as I know, avoiding indoor public dining is not significantly carcinogenic. What seems to be putting the cancer patients and would-be cancer patients you mention at risk is people not taking ENOUGH covid precautions, getting sick, overwhelming the healthcare system, and creating a fear of infection that causes too many people with cancer to miss treatment or fail to get properly diagnosed. But take everything I saw with a grain of paranoid salt because Iíll soon be a card-carrying member of the Nefarious Order of Nurses. Jk, we donít carry cards; we just utilize a really elaborate handshake.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1964

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2020, 06:23:15 am »
Quote
Is not seeking medical treatment for suspected cancer seriously a restriction put in place in the UK to prevent the spread of coronavirus? No wonder Johnson is getting such bad press these days.

There are more details here. About 2.4 million people in the UK are waiting for cancer screening, treatment or tests, as a result of disruption to the NHS during the past 10 weeks, according to Cancer Research UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52876999

This is while, according to the Mail's article (based on government figures)

The number of NHS England beds currently occupied is lower than last yearís average. On November 5, the most recent date available, there were actually 1,293 fewer patients in hospital beds than last yearís November average.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8971669/What-DONT-tell-Covid-facts-twisted-strike-fear-hearts.html

On top of this, government fear mongering has probably dissuaded a lot of people with cancer symptoms from trying to get tests done.


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1702

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2020, 07:45:40 am »
If we're going to do this every time and have society on virtual lockdown,
Which isn't a terrible idea, in my opinion
Notice how much cleaner the air was during the Chinese/Korean lockdowns? Enough so that it had a *global* impact on recorded CO2 levels.
Notice how the rabid consumerism that is rapidly destroying Earth slowed down a notch or two?

Good things, both of them.
Maybe our "free" society isn't such a great thing. Maybe we really ought to reexamine what is best for us as a society.  :undecided:


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2350

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2020, 08:01:29 am »
Does anyone else appreciate the fact that this disease barely would have been a fart in the wind 140 years ago because most of the people it kills would have already been dead? For 99.999% of humanity's existence this disease would mean jack shit.

"Old person died of the coughs" only became news post-Cold War.

The thing is, maybe we need to understand that biological lifeforms, for the most part, at least complex animals generally don't do well when they reach old age and that's natural. I mean, diseases are going to crop up all the time and the elderly are going to be the most vulnerable. If we're going to do this every time and have society on virtual lockdown, maybe we need to consider whether that is all really worth it as a permanent way of life and if we're really making the best choice there.

This argument is very much like the mindset my Dad had once the Alzheimer's began to destroy his mind.  We were talking about the Sago mine disaster where 12 miners died, and how the Bush administration had weakened OSHA regulations and so allowed companies to degrade workplace safety.

My Dad was like, 12 dead miners, big deal!  I remember when I was a kid, you could get 30 or 40 dead miners in a collapse and no one would say anything about it!  All people do anymore is whine and complain!

This argument is that society should not make any effort to improve the quality of life for people in the society--people survived well enough two hundred years ago (although they didn't) and what's good enough for them should be good enough for us!

It's a rubbish argument from a rubbish mind.
Mr. C is not a bad person, in fact is quite a good person here. One of the best people on this forum if you really look at it
-Mr.DeMartino


  • SPQR
  • Expert Waygook

    • 599

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2020, 08:06:57 am »
Which isn't a terrible idea, in my opinion
Notice how much cleaner the air was during the Chinese/Korean lockdowns? Enough so that it had a *global* impact on recorded CO2 levels.
Notice how the rabid consumerism that is rapidly destroying Earth slowed down a notch or two?

Good things, both of them.
Maybe our "free" society isn't such a great thing. Maybe we really ought to reexamine what is best for us as a society.  :undecided:

Yeah, right. Let's go back to the stone age and be hunter gatherers again.

We can get married at 12 or 13 years old because most of us will die in
our 40s.

Consumerism, technology and production are important cornerstones
for a successful civilization.  The only way to reduce greenhouse gases is
through advancements and research in new methods of production.
Telling people to slow down on consumption is amusing to those from
rich, advanced countries and totally crazy to ones from developing countries.


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1702

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2020, 08:09:55 am »
Yeah, right. Let's go back to the stone age and be hunter gatherers again.

We can get married at 12 or 13 years old because most of us will die in
our 40s.

Consumerism, technology and production are important cornerstones
for a successful civilization.  The only way to reduce greenhouse gases is
through advancements and research in new methods of production.
Telling people to slow down on consumption is amusing to those from
rich, advanced countries and totally crazy to ones from developing countries.
You'll notice that I wasn't advocating subsistence living or whatever. Just a bit of moderation.
Anyway, going back to those times is impossible with a global population of 7.5 billion. The only thing that will save us is technology, and a willingness to make hard choices so that our great grand children don't all end up living in toxic waste dumps


  • SPQR
  • Expert Waygook

    • 599

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2020, 08:47:34 am »
You'll notice that I wasn't advocating subsistence living or whatever. Just a bit of moderation.
Anyway, going back to those times is impossible with a global population of 7.5 billion. The only thing that will save us is technology, and a willingness to make hard choices so that our great grand children don't all end up living in toxic waste dumps

"OK, everyone.  We're going for a bit of moderation next month. You're all laid off."


  • Liechtenstein
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1303

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2020, 08:55:47 am »
What's going to pop up (pun intended) when the permafrost melts? How many weird organisms have been frozen for millenia under the ground that will kill us with a sniff?


Re: Have a Happy Deathgiving
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2020, 09:00:07 am »
What's going to pop up (pun intended) when the permafrost melts? How many weird organisms have been frozen for millenia under the ground that will kill us with a sniff?

That sounds pretty sci-fi horror fantasy to me, but Iím pretty sure weíll be A-ok because whatever it is will probably die off along with the eradication of its natural habitat. :undecided: