Potential for Violence

Also, again..

Question-
1) Do the U.S. intelligence/law enforcement agencies have the ability to find out who QAnon is and their identity?
2) Why don't we know their identity?
3) Shouldn't this be priority #1 if QAnon truly is responsible for a serious threat to our nation and encouraging an insurrection? Why the lack of urgency by the FBI? Why no Bin Laden or Unabomber-style manhunt? Why isn't the media trying to find out who Q is?

And according to the polls, something like 50% of Americans who think they shouldn't be torn down either, but hey, ignore them and focus on Nazis if you must.

10 years ago, something like 50% of Americans thought gay marriage should be illegal.

10 years ago, something like 50% of Americans thought gay marriage should be illegal.

What rights are being denied by a statue existing?

I guess you could make some libertarian taxation or endorsement argument.

Only one in six Black British people think toppling statues is a good idea.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/84-of-black-britons-reject-toppling-statues-w2v5hf9f8

What rights are being denied by a statue existing?

I guess you could make some libertarian taxation or endorsement argument.

Well, the point was about how polls change,

But I don't want the statues to be destroyed, they belong in a museum.  /Indiana Jones

What rights are being denied by a statue existing?

The right to not live in a country that venerates murderous white supremacy.

And according to the polls, something like 50% of Americans who think they shouldn't be torn down either, but hey, ignore them and focus on Nazis if you must.

The United States would be a very different place if "50% of Americans think..." was actually the basis for consequential decision-making.



As Donald Trump liked to say, you can't always get what you want. You know, the guy that took the presidency after losing the popular vote.

Hey, speaking of Donald Trump, I'm curious as to why we're still talking about Confederate statues when he's been in the news lately. In case you missed it, he took the stage at CPAC and lied about winning the 2020 election, rousing the crowd with his threats of revenge against all the Republicans who wouldn't ride along with this fiction.  That seems much more pertinent to the topic of this thread than Confederate statues, dontcha think?

Let's see...

A) Monuments to people who perpetuated a war in defense of kidnapping and enslaving Africans are removed, and no one gets hurt.

B) Donald Trump falsely claims in 2017 that he won the popular vote the previous year, then establishes a commission to uncover evidence of widespread election fraud. This commission is an abject failure. Trump then spends much of 2020 claiming that if he wins, it will reflect a fair election process, but if he loses it will be because of cheating. This despite his 2016 popular vote loss, the GOP's loss of the House in 2018, consistent polling showing a Biden win and Trump's unprecedented poor performance in approval ratings. Trump loses the the 2020 election, makes myriad false claims about fraud, attempts to bully the Georgia Secretary of State into falsifying election results, attempts all kinds of legal chicanery to prevent the winner from being certified, then holds a rally and encourages a "march on the Capitol" which ends up with millions of dollars in property damage, 138 police officers getting injured and five people dying.

Hand up if you think A) is more worthy of your concern.

The right to not live in a country that venerates murderous white supremacy.

The U.S. is already such a place. Seriously, if you think it actually is, even with the statues, you need to lay off the internet and actually get out in the real world.

Claiming the U.S. is venerating white supremacy is an insult to millions of people around the world who deal with REAL crushing ethnic violence. That's not to say there aren't serious issues with racism in the U.S. but there's a reason why people aren't fleeing the U.S. en masse as refugees from ethnic violence. Like, if the U.S. were such a horribly racist place, wouldn't we see black people overwhelmingly moving AWAY from white areas and into predominantly black ones?

Like you guys could easily make a sensible, rational argument for statue removal, instead you go with the most dramatic, over-the-top view of the issue that makes the U.S. seem like 1990s Bosnia on steroids. Same with the Capitol riot.

Like you ever think of going with maybe 5/10 or 6/10 instead of 11/10?

The weaker the argument, the more foolish the questions asked to support it.

The facts continue to speak, no matter how much those on the right lie and obfuscate.

Maybe we should start taking bets on how far DeMartino will go to avoid discussing Trump's election lies and the violence that resulted from them.

"I know your pain. You're hurt... We had an election that was stolen from us... We love you. You're very special."






DeMartino: "You know what the real problem is?"

AGAIN-

Question-
1) Do the U.S. intelligence/law enforcement agencies have the ability to find out who QAnon is and their identity?
2) Why don't we know their identity?
3) Shouldn't this be priority #1 if QAnon truly is responsible for a serious threat to our nation and encouraging an insurrection? Why the lack of urgency by the FBI? Why no Bin Laden or Unabomber-style manhunt? Why isn't the media trying to find out who Q is?

DeMartino: "You know what the real problem is?"

Those are two separate issues that we are debating.

You do realize this just as easily gets turned on its head the other way, right? "Why are you worried about taking down statues when Biden is bombing places in Syria and locking kids in cages and Cuomo and blah blah blah?" Same damn thing.

Yes, but you're the one who created the whole "taking down statues" diversion and decided to pursue it into oblivion. This wasn't some hot topic that everyone jumped on in an attempt to deflect attention from Joe Biden bombing Syria. It's one that you pushed to the forefront, thinking you could create some sly equivalence between the people rampaging through the capitol building to overturn the results of the 2020 election and people who don't think that Confederate monuments belong in a town square. 

Yes, but you're the one who created the whole "taking down statues" diversion and decided to pursue it into oblivion.

Pretty sure that was a mutual decision. Also, people are allowed to not share your view and debate and defend and present their views. Why am I the one pursuing it into oblivion, why not they?

This wasn't some hot topic that everyone jumped on in

If you will look back it was waygoOk who brought up statues. There were a variety of topics discussed, because it was a debate/discussion.

It's one that you pushed to the forefront, thinking you could create some sly equivalence between the people rampaging through the capitol building to overturn the results of the 2020 election and people who don't think that Confederate monuments belong in a town square.

That wasn't my point at all, nor did I try to make it.

Dude, I think you need to maybe step back and realize that not everything is as planned and nefarious as you think it is.

My point was being angry at statues of long dead people and blaming them for society's ills is borderline mentally ill. It's a sign of unserious people living in unserious times.

Ah, I misunderstood, then. I'd tried to take your advice and look at the situation with nuance and complexity. Therefore I didn't realize that Mr C, gogators!, waygo0k and Mayor Haggar were literally angry at statues and blamed them for society's ills. I assumed - foolishly, it would appear - that they took issue with what the statues represented, and what implications their continued public display had for regions marked by centuries of cruelty to black people.

My mistake.

I assume, then, that your mental illness diagnosis also applies to the removal of Stalin statues in the former Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein statues in Iraq, monuments to segregationists in South Africa and Pinochet statues in Chile.  Or does it just apply to Americans?

Ah, I misunderstood, then. I'd tried to take your advice and look at the situation with nuance and complexity. Therefore I didn't realize that Mr C, gogators!, waygo0k and Mayor Haggar were literally angry at statues and blamed them for society's ills. I assumed - foolishly, it would appear - that they took issue with what the statues represented, and what implications their continued public display had for regions marked by centuries of cruelty to black people.

But the issue isn't with their representation or their display, I assume it has to be because they have some sort of effect.

If they aren't having an effect, then why get so worked up?

I assume, then, that your mental illness diagnosis also applies to the removal of Stalin statues in the former Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein statues in Iraq, monuments to segregationists in South Africa and Pinochet statues in Chile.

These were all immediately following the fall of the regime, by people living under the regime, and in the cases of some, while the person was still alive or people that opposed them were still alive. Saddam's statue was toppled while literally remnants of Saddam's forces were still fighting and vying for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people and still claiming to be some sort of organized, official regime.

AGAIN-

Question-
1) Do the U.S. intelligence/law enforcement agencies have the ability to find out who QAnon is and their identity?
2) Why don't we know their identity?
3) Shouldn't this be priority #1 if QAnon truly is responsible for a serious threat to our nation and encouraging an insurrection? Why the lack of urgency by the FBI? Why no Bin Laden or Unabomber-style manhunt? Why isn't the media trying to find out who Q is?
Modify message

Strange how there are no answers or reply to this. Almost as if people know what the answers are and what that implies...

AGAIN-

Question-
1) Do the U.S. intelligence/law enforcement agencies have the ability to find out who QAnon is and their identity?
2) Why don't we know their identity?
3) Shouldn't this be priority #1 if QAnon truly is responsible for a serious threat to our nation and encouraging an insurrection? Why the lack of urgency by the FBI? Why no Bin Laden or Unabomber-style manhunt? Why isn't the media trying to find out who Q is?
Modify message

Strange how there are no answers or reply to this. Almost as if people know what the answers are and what that implies...

... mainly that he's a nutcase ex-pat who until recently kept a pig farm near Manila named Jim Watkins, who runs 8chan now 8kun with his son Ron.  Or it might be a tech guy named Jason  Gelinas who ran the "drop" website QMap before it was shut down.  Or it may be both or neither.

I'm no expert, but I understand this kind of thing is very difficult to prove in the kind of way that makes bringing charges worthwhile.  How do you know there's no "urgency" on the part of the FBI, BTW?  You've examined the work logs?

But the issue isn't with their representation or their display, I assume it has to be because they have some sort of effect.

If they aren't having an effect, then why get so worked up?
These were all immediately following the fall of the regime, by people living under the regime, and in the cases of some, while the person was still alive or people that opposed them were still alive. Saddam's statue was toppled while literally remnants of Saddam's forces were still fighting and vying for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people and still claiming to be some sort of organized, official regime.

No, not really. Debates about what to do with certain statues still continue in S. Africa. Young, contemporary Chileans have been responsible for a lot the momentum for removing Pinochet statues. Do you think that statue of Saddam Hussein that you mentioned was the only one in Iraq? When does the window of opportunity for removing them close, before people who want to do so receive your diagnosis of mental illness?

How about a future, democratic North Korea? Let's imagine that 70 years after the collapse of the Kim regime, some retro ultranationalist juche group erects monuments to the Kims. How long do the local city councils have to remove them before they meet your criteria of mental illness? 20 years? 40?

What's the cutoff point at which it goes from being a good idea that all of us would (presumably) approve of, to something deserving of your mockery and opprobrium?

Actually, I have no interest in your response and I'm now complicit in driving the topic further into oblivion.

Feel free to pursue other strawmen and diversions.