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  • tylerthegloob
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #520 on: July 03, 2020, 12:00:50 pm »
Many states also don't have the money for that sort of infrastructure, and besides, that only deals with speeding. What about reckless driving/missing plates/broken taillights/etc?

what about them? i don't really understand your problem with having civilians manage these things. could you explain to me what you think would be different?


  • 745sticky
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #521 on: July 03, 2020, 12:14:27 pm »
Right, but the officer doesn't know if he/she will be shot. Why are you being asked for your ID? I'm not American but how often does this happen to you.

You say genuine risk, but the police officer has to make that decision in a split second. Only they can assess the situation. There is a difference between murder and thinking they are going to be shot by a criminal with a gun.

I guess passing law to say ALL interactions must be recorded, so officers know they are always being watched (working to a specific standard) would be my suggestion. Or shooting people in the legs/arms to disable, but thats a tough shot.

Yeah, and if they make the wrong decision, they should be punished. Nobody's saying policing isn't a dangerous job, but it's what they signed up for. They're supposed to be public servants, not public executioners.

I do think you're on the right track with all interactions being recorded, and bodycams are mandated pretty much everywhere - but they do have a tendency to mysteriously turn off at convenient moments...


  • 745sticky
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #522 on: July 03, 2020, 12:17:31 pm »
what about them? i don't really understand your problem with having civilians manage these things. could you explain to me what you think would be different?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're getting at (although in fairness to myself, you haven't given me much to go off of). For the sake of clarity, I have two genuine questions:

1) What's your definition of "civilian," and
2) How would you propose civilians enforce traffic laws?


  • Colburnnn
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • August 10, 2015, 05:52:37 pm
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #523 on: July 03, 2020, 12:27:04 pm »
Yeah, and if they make the wrong decision, they should be punished. Nobody's saying policing isn't a dangerous job, but it's what they signed up for. They're supposed to be public servants, not public executioners.

I do think you're on the right track with all interactions being recorded, and bodycams are mandated pretty much everywhere - but they do have a tendency to mysteriously turn off at convenient moments...

Agree, completely. The police should be held to account at all times, I'm not for one moment suggesting they have the right to kill. They do though, have the right to protect themselves, and that is a hard balance to maintain. Guns are part of the USA, citizens will always have to right to own, criminals will always be able to obtain, therefore the police will always need them as a defence.

I still maintain that if you do everything in your power to comply with officers and make their job easy, it is in your best interests to do so. No crime, no time.
Haven't you got some pictures of birds to be jacking off to, son?

Colburnnn: Complains a lot, very sassy. Has a loudmouth.


  • Kyndo
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #524 on: July 03, 2020, 12:36:34 pm »
...
I guess passing law to say ALL interactions must be recorded, so officers know they are always being watched (working to a specific standard) would be my suggestion.

I agree that this would be a great idea. Not only does it protect the general public, but it can also protects the police officer from false claims of misconduct, which does happen from time to time.

Or shooting people in the legs/arms to disable, but that's a tough shot.
Police officers are trained to aim for centre of mass because it's the most certain way of hitting a rapidly moving target. Aiming at limbs carries a much higher risk of missing and potentially striking unintended targets. Also, getting shot in the leg can also lead to death, especially if there's no immediate first aid available. Rather than shooting to disable, police officers should all be required to carry and have extensive training in non-lethal weapons (such as tasers, I guess). Need to have available budget for that, though...


  • tylerthegloob
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #525 on: July 03, 2020, 12:47:28 pm »
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're getting at (although in fairness to myself, you haven't given me much to go off of). For the sake of clarity, I have two genuine questions:

1) What's your definition of "civilian," and
2) How would you propose civilians enforce traffic laws?

1) a civilian is someone who is not a part of the police or military.

2) they would issue tickets. in extreme cases of reckless driving they would need help from a real cop to physically apprehend someone


  • 745sticky
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #526 on: July 03, 2020, 12:48:32 pm »

I still maintain that if you do everything in your power to comply with officers and make their job easy, it is in your best interests to do so. No crime, no time.

That's true, and I haven't had bad experiences the few times I have had run-ins with police, but unfortunately reality isn't so neat and clean. If everybody did what they were supposed to we wouldn't need police in the first place.


  • fka
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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #527 on: July 03, 2020, 01:42:53 pm »
The whole basis of the defund the police argument, for those who care to look into it rather than writing it off as a crazy left-wing fantasy, is about reducing encounters with police, and by extension limiting the possibility of violence. As a bonus, fewer people end up with criminal records that negatively impact their life prospects. Even better, taxpayers save a lot of money. These are all arguments that should appeal to libertarians and economic conservatives. The fact that they're being dismissed because conservatives didn't like the look of a guy with the slogan on a sign at a BLM rally is actually a potential loss for their own side. If conservatives are true to their principles, they should be resisting the bureaucratic mission creep of American policing.

Quote
Why are you being asked for your ID? I'm not American but how often does this happen to you.


If you drive a car, ride a skateboard, attend a school, hang out with a group of teenage male friends, live in lower-income neighborhood, walk in an area that doesn't have a lot of pedestrian traffic, or participate in many other normal activities, your chances of being ID'd by a cop are pretty strong. 

About 1/3 of Americans have arrest records.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/just-facts-many-americans-have-criminal-records-college-diplomas



Police are tasked with school discipline, managing homelessness, dealing with fallout of drug addiction, punishing drug use that doesn't result in verifiable harm, mediating domestic disputes, dealing with mental health problems, resolving arguments between neighbors, traffic enforcement, etc. etc. etc. Bringing guns and the anticipation of violence into all of these doesn't make sense, nor does it make sense for a single state bureaucracy to act as the first port of call for all of these issues, especially when the end result is the criminalization of a large segment of the population.


  • fka
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #528 on: July 03, 2020, 01:58:52 pm »
For what it's worth, I got my first ticket when I was 14 and by the time I finished high school, about half the kids in my circle of friends had been arrested. We weren't a particularly "bad" bunch, either. I remember thinking it was weird when I went to college and met people who hadn't been arrested and didn't know anyone who had.

A lot of this depends on where a person grew up and what the local police department was like. But it's one reason why some of us bristle at pat generalizations like "If you stay out of trouble, you won't have confrontations with the police." That's just much too simplistic.


  • Colburnnn
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #529 on: July 03, 2020, 02:00:25 pm »
...is about reducing encounters with police, and by extension limiting the possibility of violence. As a bonus, fewer people end up with criminal records that negatively impact their life prospects.

I'm with you here. But why is the protest about defunding the police instead of asking the people in our communities to stop committing crimes and treating each other better. How about defunding gangs, drug dealers and prostitution rings. How about getting more people on board by dropping the divisive slogan 'black lives matter' and changing it to something like 'black lives matter too' or 'we all matter'.

I'm genuinely curious why you think defunding police is a better solution than stopping what the police are arresting people for. We need the police for all kinds of reasons. They are useful, they help many people feel secure and safe. Do not give them a reason to arrest you, keep your nose out of trouble and lead a good life.

OK, I'll add that in the event of you getting a ticket for something, was that ticket valid? Were you speeding? Jaywalking? Trespassing?  Drinking underage? Like, I genuinely don't get this 'it's too simplistic' thing. Don't commit offences, you're good. The majority of these killings are not for minor offences anyway. Either outstanding warrants, long sheets, or resisting arrest.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 02:03:53 pm by Colburnnn »
Haven't you got some pictures of birds to be jacking off to, son?

Colburnnn: Complains a lot, very sassy. Has a loudmouth.


  • 745sticky
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #530 on: July 03, 2020, 02:27:48 pm »
1) a civilian is someone who is not a part of the police or military.

2) they would issue tickets. in extreme cases of reckless driving they would need help from a real cop to physically apprehend someone

The cases of extreme reckless driving were what I was getting at. Obviously any system that can automatically flag speeding, etc. should be used regardless, and the role of traffic cops could certainly be reduced, but there are instances where somebody in a position of authority with the legal ability to arrest will be necessary to ensure compliance since ultimately cameras can be beaten out pretty easily (tinted windows, fake plates, etc). and the sorts of people who'd be taking pains to avoid them aren't the sorts I think civilians should be approaching.



  • Mr C
  • The Legend

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    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #531 on: July 03, 2020, 02:46:59 pm »
I'm with you here. But why is the protest about defunding the police instead of asking the people in our communities to stop committing crimes and treating each other better. How about defunding gangs, drug dealers and prostitution rings. How about getting more people on board by dropping the divisive slogan 'black lives matter' and changing it to something like 'black lives matter too' or 'we all matter'.

I'm genuinely curious why you think defunding police is a better solution than stopping what the police are arresting people for. We need the police for all kinds of reasons. They are useful, they help many people feel secure and safe. Do not give them a reason to arrest you, keep your nose out of trouble and lead a good life.

OK, I'll add that in the event of you getting a ticket for something, was that ticket valid? Were you speeding? Jaywalking? Trespassing?  Drinking underage? Like, I genuinely don't get this 'it's too simplistic' thing. Don't commit offences, you're good. The majority of these killings are not for minor offences anyway. Either outstanding warrants, long sheets, or resisting arrest.

Someone is just not paying attention.
Mr. C is not a bad person, in fact is quite a good person here. One of the best people on this forum if you really look at it
-Mr.DeMartino


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #532 on: July 03, 2020, 02:49:51 pm »
Quote
How about defunding gangs, drug dealers and prostitution rings

These aren't public services funded by taxpayers. Decriminalizing drugs and (adult, consensual) sex work would effectively serve the purpose of defunding gangs, drug dealers and prostitution rings, though, so I would support those efforts provided they were implemented in sensible way.

Quote
How about getting more people on board by dropping the divisive slogan 'black lives matter' and changing it to something like 'black lives matter too' or 'we all matter'.

Ask anyone who supports Black Lives Matter and they'll tell you that that's exactly what it does mean. Twisting out of its original context and intent into something sinister and divisive is a personal choice that some people unfortunately make. Hopefully you'll look into the origins of the slogan and decide that you don't want to perpetuate that divisiveness.

Quote
OK, I'll add that in the event of you getting a ticket for something, was that ticket valid?

It was for skateboarding.

Quote
Don't commit offences, you're good.

So do you think that the 1/3 of Americans with arrest records are bad people? Or does it seem possible that there could be a flaw in our justice system that criminalizes so many people?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 03:36:52 pm by fka »


  • tylerthegloob
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #533 on: July 03, 2020, 02:51:19 pm »
The cases of extreme reckless driving were what I was getting at. Obviously any system that can automatically flag speeding, etc. should be used regardless, and the role of traffic cops could certainly be reduced, but there are instances where somebody in a position of authority with the legal ability to arrest will be necessary to ensure compliance since ultimately cameras can be beaten out pretty easily (tinted windows, fake plates, etc). and the sorts of people who'd be taking pains to avoid them aren't the sorts I think civilians should be approaching.

yeah there are fringe cases where you'd need a police officer. i'm not saying police shouldn't be able to go after criminals who happen to be in a vehicle. as for the last part of what you wrote, are there really that many people using fake plates to avoid speeding tickets? i suspect it's much more trouble than it's worth

and i really don't think these things are a big enough issue to justify the amount of force being shown at routine traffic stops today. for years police have used these "routine" traffic stops for unsavory purposes (like profiteering via civil asset forfeiture, among others) that are now just ingrained in policing


  • 745sticky
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Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #534 on: July 03, 2020, 03:09:56 pm »
yeah there are fringe cases where you'd need a police officer. i'm not saying police shouldn't be able to go after criminals who happen to be in a vehicle. as for the last part of what you wrote, are there really that many people using fake plates to avoid speeding tickets? i suspect it's much more trouble than it's worth

and i really don't think these things are a big enough issue to justify the amount of force being shown at routine traffic stops today. for years police have used these "routine" traffic stops for unsavory purposes (like profiteering via civil asset forfeiture, among others) that are now just ingrained in policing

I don't think people would use fake plates to avoid speeding tickets specifically, but if cameras that track your license plate become widespread enough, you can bet that most anybody doing anything is going to start throwing them on (or, more likely, stealing somebody else's - another potential issue. Larry Lawton used to steal the plates of whatever car was in the parking lot of whatever jewelry store he happened to be robbing to swap 'em out). Plus you'll probably also get a few nutty Libertarians at it and whatnot.

Police abusing traffic stops as a stepping stone to do other shit is definitely a big issue, but there are plenty of countries that manage to have a police force that isn't corrupt. I think the main reason we grapple with these sorts of problems so much is our fetishization of law enforcement that has let them get away with way too much way too often - it's become the norm now. Holding police accountable is a pretty simple fix in concept. Body cams always on is a good start. Of course, getting them to actually do this is another matter entirely.


  • L I
  • The Legend

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    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: WTF is wrong with American police?
« Reply #535 on: July 03, 2020, 05:06:48 pm »
So do you think that the 1/3 of Americans with arrest records are bad people? Or does it seem possible that there could be a flaw in our justice system that criminalizes so many people?

The number one crime for which people are arrested is dui.

What happens to those arrested?

Nothing too severe if they didnít kill or hurt someone (and itís their first offense).

Just pay fines.

Driving under the influence endangers others.

The arrest is a preventative measure.