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  • joanns
  • Adventurer

    • 52

    • March 04, 2014, 01:21:46 pm
    more
"Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« on: February 11, 2020, 12:06:33 pm »
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190926000762&np=1&mp=1

Basically, a Korean man started a grassroots movement to help shatter the belief that a diploma from a SKY university equals a set life.

He addresses how kids get burnt out from studying and don't really get to experience childhood, how the college entrance system seems to be a god (and over 200 students commit suicide from the pressure to perform well), how parents fork over so much money to "shadow education," and how a university diploma seems to dictate an individual's worth.

Will his movement will be able to change half of those things for the better within the next 40 years? What do you all think?

Has someone already started this thread? I see the article was last updated 30. September.


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 3642

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2020, 12:14:58 pm »
Get rid of all the exams and let universities look at high school marks like they do in Canada.  Also, good unis can judge by extracurriculars, an interview, and with letters of recommendation.    Most average universities, just a quick interview, a couple of reference letters, and looking at your high school grade 12 grades.  (It's all I did in Canada.  So, grateful I never had to go through the hell here.) 

Also, large conglomerates should get rid of exams.  Why do Asians love exams so much?  They have to get rid of exams if they want to stop all this studying.  Otherwise, it'll never stop.  Don't attack the symptom; attack the problem.  English may still be important as companies will still want an English interview and simplified exams to check understanding for specialized professions.  Even in Canada, become an accountant, the exams check for knowledge but aren't deliberately made too difficult like exams for everything and anything are here.  They are just to check your basic knowledge to qualify.  Then, it's how hard you work, with interviewing skills, and references that get you hired.  (So a different kind of competition.)


  • alexisalex
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1065

    • March 02, 2014, 05:10:24 pm
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2020, 12:50:55 pm »
Yeah I think our system in the UK is quite good.  A mix of end of term exams plus your grades throughout the year (from general work and longer coursework projects) are taken into account.  Much fairer I think.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4621

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2020, 01:04:10 pm »
Yeah I think our system in the UK is quite good.  A mix of end of term exams plus your grades throughout the year (from general work and longer coursework projects) are taken into account.  Much fairer I think.
yep. coursework is much better. i learned a lot more, too. i mean, not to mention our GCSEs were spread over a couple of weeks, not all in one day (like here..).

is korea the only country that doesn't write essays? when i taught IELTS, the essays i got from koreans were absolutely awful, but everyone else's were fine.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4811

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Cairo, Egypt (formerly Seoul)
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2020, 02:33:14 pm »
yep. coursework is much better. i learned a lot more, too. i mean, not to mention our GCSEs were spread over a couple of weeks, not all in one day (like here..).

is korea the only country that doesn't write essays? when i taught IELTS, the essays i got from koreans were absolutely awful, but everyone else's were fine.
I think that the lack of essays and the focus on testing have the same root cause: an attempt to remove favoritism and corruption.

If a grade is based on a qualitative marking scheme, then a marker is open to bribery. With a multiple choice test, it is much easier to defend giving one student a 98 and another a 97.5.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4621

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2020, 03:00:40 pm »
I think that the lack of essays and the focus on testing have the same root cause: an attempt to remove favoritism and corruption.

If a grade is based on a qualitative marking scheme, then a marker is open to bribery. With a multiple choice test, it is much easier to defend giving one student a 98 and another a 97.5.
easier to mark, too. can't imagine the korean teachers agreeing to marking essays if it means more work


Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2020, 04:05:00 pm »
Get rid of all the exams and let universities look at high school marks like they do in Canada.  Also, good unis can judge by extracurriculars, an interview, and with letters of recommendation.    Most average universities, just a quick interview, a couple of reference letters, and looking at your high school grade 12 grades.  (It's all I did in Canada.  So, grateful I never had to go through the hell here.) 

Also, large conglomerates should get rid of exams.  Why do Asians love exams so much?  They have to get rid of exams if they want to stop all this studying.  Otherwise, it'll never stop.  Don't attack the symptom; attack the problem.  English may still be important as companies will still want an English interview and simplified exams to check understanding for specialized professions.  Even in Canada, become an accountant, the exams check for knowledge but aren't deliberately made too difficult like exams for everything and anything are here.  They are just to check your basic knowledge to qualify.  Then, it's how hard you work, with interviewing skills, and references that get you hired.  (So a different kind of competition.)
Why standardized tests?
They are objective
They're pretty decent predictors of aptitude and success
They are a bulwark against grade inflation
Interviews and extracurriculars are filled with bias and subjectivity. I notice you lean conservative. Are you comfortable with a bunch of liberal academics doing interviews and selecting students based on their extracurriculars? 
Letters of recommendation are meaningless

Now, I DO believe in the interview (at least for workplaces, not so much for universities) as just as important as any exams or whatever.

easier to mark, too. can't imagine the korean teachers agreeing to marking essays if it means more work
I don't think you'd be enthusiastic about having your vacation cut short by 3 days to spend it at school grading a bunch of essays brought over from the next county.  "600 essays, evaluated by the end of the week". I wouldn't be surprised if studies showed that individuals, would grade earlier or later essays much more favorably or unfavorably, depending on their personalities. Rather than making things fair and less biased, you may have just introduced another variable that promotes bias.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4621

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2020, 04:38:55 pm »
yes thank you for repeating my point but in many more words


  • stoat
  • The Legend

    • 2085

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 04:46:44 pm »
Quote
I don't think you'd be enthusiastic about having your vacation cut short by 3 days to spend it at school grading a bunch of essays brought over from the next county.  "600 essays, evaluated by the end of the week". I wouldn't be surprised if studies showed that individuals, would grade earlier or later essays much more favorably or unfavorably, depending on their personalities. Rather than making things fair and less biased, you may have just introduced another variable that promotes bias

Teachers in the UK get paid extra for marking standardized tests, I'm sure Korean teachers would also be up for some paid overtime.


  • SPQR
  • Expert Waygook

    • 849

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Sierra Leone
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 05:34:57 pm »
yes thank you for repeating my point but in many more words

Haha, yeah no kidding. Duh!


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4621

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 05:42:17 pm »
Teachers in the UK get paid extra for marking standardized tests, I'm sure Korean teachers would also be up for some paid overtime.
korean teachers already seem to have way too much free time. i would always see the teachers lounging around, chatting all afternoon or having a nap at their desks - homeroom and subject teachers both


Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 06:56:43 pm »
Why do Asians love exams so much? 

Oh man, so many reasons.

- Chinese empires would hold magistrate exams where young men would study really hard in order to get a glorious imperial magistrate job. Of course the reality was that as usual everyone would cheat and schmooze to get the best result possible. It seems like this exam system has resulted in the modern exam system in China, Japan and South Korea. Even Thailand has ridiculous tests. Students are expected to kill themselves for years "studying," then take a national test that predicts the rest of their lives. Anything they do at university or afterwards is pointless, they could cure cancer and it would matter less than their high school exam results. Then everyone acts all shocked when cheating happens.

- standardized tests are easy to make and to grade. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from this about the work ethics of Asian teachers.

- cheating of all kinds is rampant in Asian societies as anyone who's spent 5 minutes in Korea knows. Cheating is seen as clever and commendable or just outright ignored. It's a lot easier to fake a test result than it is to fake a handwritten essay or a year's worth of evaluations and grades. Even if you don't cheat, you can still "study" for a typical Asian exam and memorize tons of information without actually learning anything or using any critical thinking. When elite Asian students come to Western countries they encounter tests like the SAT which can't be crammed for because it's an aptitude test rather than an evaluation of rote memorization. Their response is often, predictably, to cheat and buy test answers. And when they have to write an essay they often buy one online. And yet we're told again and again by proud Asians that they have higher IQs than the rest of us.

- Korean/Chinese/Japanese societies are fairly economically homogenous. Yes there's an uber-wealthy 1% in these countries (who mostly send their kids to Western countries for their education) but most people aren't very far from one another economically. Education is very competitive for obvious reasons and tests are made harder than they have to be because apparently Asia hasn't discovered aptitude tests.


Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2020, 08:41:38 pm »
- Chinese empires would hold magistrate exams where young men would study really hard in order to get a glorious imperial magistrate job. Of course the reality was that as usual everyone would cheat and schmooze to get the best result possible. It seems like this exam system has resulted in the modern exam system in China, Japan and South Kore
Then please explain why the SAT was the dominant college admissions criteria in the United States up until about the 80s-90s? Did the Chinese Empire somehow extend its tentacles to the College Board?

Quote
- standardized tests are easy to make and to grade. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from this about the work ethics of Asian teachers.
Yes, it's because it's easier to make and grade.  :rolleyes: Nothing to do with objectivity. You gotta love the people who come on here and bitch and moan about the work ethic of their coworkers and say "Asian teachers wouldn't grade exams because they have a shit work ethic" but they themselves throw a hissy fit over having to come in and desk warm.

Quote
It's a lot easier to fake a test result than it is to fake a handwritten essay or a year's worth of evaluations and grades
Disagree. For starters, we have grade inflation and we're starting to see the consequences of that- kids with great grades but shit standardized test schools being admitted into prestigious colleges or high schools and then floundering because the base of knowledge that a standardized test would have revealed.

And I'm willing to bet everyone on this site has bullshitted at least 1 essay in their life and gotten away with it.

Quote
Even if you don't cheat, you can still "study" for a typical Asian exam and memorize tons of information without actually learning anything or using any critical thinking. When elite Asian students come to Western countries they encounter tests like the SAT which can't be crammed for because it's an aptitude test rather than an evaluation of rote memorization.
Uhh, that's not really how the math portion of either test works...

Quote
Their response is often, predictably, to cheat and buy test answers. And when they have to write an essay they often buy one online.
What's next on your list of stereotypes? The covetous Jew? The sleepy Mexican? You do realize that for every attempted cheating scandal, there are tens of thousands of Asian students who don't cheat?

Quote
And yet we're told again and again by proud Asians that they have higher IQs than the rest of us.
Why would you give a shit? IQ is such a bunch of emptiness anyways. The thing is I think you do give a shit and your anger and the rant above indicates it.

Quote
because apparently Asia hasn't discovered aptitude tests.
How exactly are the English and Math portions of the Suneung based on rote memorization? Can you give an example?


Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2020, 08:48:07 pm »
Anyways, it sure sounds like someone is upset his spot in a university got taken by some Asian, followed by the job he thought he was entitled to. But hey, it's the Trumpers who are all resentful!


Re: "Take the Burden Off Our Children"
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 03:42:08 pm »
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/

Quote
How an industry helps Chinese students cheat their way into and through U.S. colleges

https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1974986/why-do-chinese-students-think-its-ok-cheat

Quote
Why do Chinese students think it’s OK to cheat?

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla-cheating/

Quote
A Chinese Cheating Ring at UCLA Reveals an Industry Devoted to Helping International Students Scam Grades

https://www.voanews.com/student-union/sat-scores-asian-students-cancelled-over-cheating

Quote
SAT Scores of Asian Students Cancelled Over Cheating

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/

Quote
How Sophisticated Test Scams From China Are Making Their Way Into the U.S.

Chinese students hire imposter “gunmen” to take the SAT, the GRE and other tests.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chinese-visa-fraud-20190312-story.html

Quote
Five California residents arrested in cheating scheme to obtain student visas for Chinese nationals

Federal authorities arrested five California residents on Tuesday, accusing them of helping Chinese nationals obtain student visas by taking their English proficiency tests for them.

Authorities allege the scheme was facilitated by 23-year-old Liu Cai, who entered the U.S. on a student visa to attend UCLA.

There were over 40 students, “who took advantage of this scheme,” and who were able to attend top-ranked colleges, including UCLA, Columbia University and New York University, according to Homeland Security Investigations special agent Christopher Kuemmerle.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-students-seen-cheating-more-than-domestic-ones-1465140141

Quote
Foreign Students Seen Cheating More Than Domestic Ones

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/universities-face-student-cheating-crisis-9jt6ncd9vz7

Quote
Universities face student cheating crisis

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/14/asia/korea-csat-test-cheating-intl/index.html

Quote
Cheating scandal erupts as South Korean students face their toughest test

https://www.ft.com/content/b6084bf6-a733-11e6-8b69-02899e8bd9d1

Quote
Rampant cheating closes US university exam centres in South Korea

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/31/world/asia/china-south-korea-students-fallout-suspected-sat-cheating.html

Quote
Chinese and South Korean Students Face Fallout From Suspicions of SAT Cheating

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/11/us-college-exam-cancelled-in-south-korea-and-hong-kong-after-leak

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US college exam cancelled in South Korea and Hong Kong after leak