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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2020, 02:48:55 pm »
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?
3m without housing, but usually without other benefits too. however, you're only working for about 3-4 hours a day, leaving a lot of time to do other part time jobs too. after school jobs are a bit of a shit show though, so you've often got to put up with a lot of bullshit

what kind of bullshit are you referring to?


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2020, 04:06:28 pm »
That chart is  a perfect example of why I don't believe conservatives when they claim that higher minimum wage makes the cost of living go up. If that were the case then the reverse would need to be true. When cost of living and productivity goes up the minimum wage should have followed if there was a strong correlation. But corporations are bleeding everyone dry while wages have flatlined. The cost of living has already risen dramatically despite minimum wage not being all that high in the U.S. ( When I say it's not all that high I mean when you factor in inflation and productivity as  well as compare those numbers to the amount that other essential things such as real estate has risen in the past decade ) . If higher minimum wage increases the cost of living then why hasn't a low minimum wage suppressed the cost of living.

I'm trying to get my fellow ex-pats to see the flaws in capitalism, but I can read some of the replies and I'm guessing that there are a few of you that will want to dig your heals in despite the fact that there is a complete financial meltdown every 10 years and everyone just shrugs it off as normal.

It depends on the situation. For example, South Korea's rise in minimum wage has led to increased costs and has been harmful to small businesses, such as restaurants. The margins aren't great and doubling labor cost over 4 years is going to hurt them.

Now in other cases minimum wage has significantly fallen behind and there can be a case made that companies with higher margins have a wage scale that are exploitative.

As far as financial meltdowns, you have to compare capitalist economies to mixed to heavy socialist ones. The socialist ones aren't islands of prosperity by any means and have their own meltdowns or long-term malaises. You also have to consider countries that have high amounts of natural resources and low populations cannot apply the same principles to every other country.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 04:08:30 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2020, 05:22:41 pm »
Wow lots of arguing about how to make 3-4m working 60 hours a week while inhaling 2.5pm in copious amounts and being on crowded trains smelling korean grandpas kimchi, soju, onion, garlic, ciggy medley breath. 

3.5 is  $3,000... 36K USD a year.  What is the average salary of a person with a bachelor's degree?
The average person with a bachelor's degree makes a median income of $70,200/year or $1,350.00/week.
https://www.creditdonkey.com/average-us-salary.html

I take it you don't know what an average means. $70,000 in the US would be how much someone with an in-demand degree like engineering would make, or a teacher with like 15-20 years of working for the same school district. I'm pretty sure most E-2's in Korea don't have engineering degrees or 20 years of teaching experience.
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2020, 07:05:29 pm »
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?
3m without housing, but usually without other benefits too. however, you're only working for about 3-4 hours a day, leaving a lot of time to do other part time jobs too. after school jobs are a bit of a shit show though, so you've often got to put up with a lot of bullshit

what kind of bullshit are you referring to?
i worked in AS programs for 3 years and my experience is

- kids are horrible. they dont want to be there. they don't care. you can't really discipline them as they'll complain to their parents, who will complain to the company, and you'll get in trouble. more likely, they'll quit and you'll also get blamed

- wages. had to file for unpaid wages a few times.

- they will try to screw you out of your severance pay

- lack of resources. wasn't even supplied with basic stuff like board markers in one job. this will depend on the company though

- your korean co-worker will be completely hit or miss. she'll be either lovely or batshit insane...never in between in my experience

but some people luck out with a great school, kids and co-worker. i would imagine now that grades one and two are back, conditions will improve a bit. however, i never really trusted AS programs at all, so i'd go through each contract with a fine tooth comb, and i also made sure all correspondence was done through email or text message - or i'd secretly voice record every meeting i'd have with the manager.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2020, 07:56:07 pm »
Summary of the thread:

“Paying minimum wage means that those of us making more than minimum wage can’t afford to live.”

🧐


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2020, 08:01:18 pm »
More like “ESL jobs in korea are now paying in the vicinity of minimum wage...not western minimum wage, Korean minimum wage”.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2020, 10:25:13 pm »
"if you go back to teacher's college." Yes people with an education degree can get jobs easily in certain countries (probably only the US and UK and only very recently here in New Zealand) but most E-2s don't have an education degree. So that means retraining which costs money. Even if it's paid for and even if you do a one-year teaching degree you'd still have to do something to pay for rent and food and so on until you graduate. All your savings from Korea will be gone pretty quick. And then after all that hard work you end up with a "great" teaching job working probably 80 hours a week and making less money per month after you pay rent than you did at your "shitty" 40 hours a week job in Korea.

At the risk of becoming a Martino clone I will answer each of your points:
Probably only in the US/UK...
Yes, and the rest of Europe and other continents. There is a huge teacher shortage, except in Asia and Canada.

Going back to college, retraining costs money...
There are many govt. schemes in which you teach while you study and most of your tuition is paid for.

you end up with a "great" teaching job working probably 80 hours a week
I teach Full time=22 hours but I do have extra duties which can take up a whole week of 40-50 hours but that's because I want to do well and this is a new school. Many colleagues just show up to teach and go off and spend time with their kids and family after they're gone.

making less money per month after you pay rent than you did at your "shitty" 40 hours a week job in Korea.
Come on man, you know that is not true.  With the shortage our remuneration and value goes up incrementally and  I would expect to make significantly less than 3 million in Korea if I were 60 years old, let alone trying to retire there at age 70. 

1: If you love your life and prospects in Korea, then stay and retire there in an ageist society by all means.
2: If you are fed up with the cultural idiosyncrasies, job insecurity and the pollution and how they marginalise your skill set, then don't let your worries about finding work back home hold you back. There is a lot of work to be had in the EU or US.
3: If you want to retrain and find work in IT or HR, fine, but the point was made that your useless ESL experience could help you find other work by rephrasing some of our skills to fit an MBA mold.
Instead, I offered my insights and personal experiences to point ESL-lifers at a far easier opportunity: becoming a teacher back home. I simply wrote a few applications, then talked for 30 min. about teaching in Korea and was hired 1 hour later and started college that year. Between my leaving Korea and standing in front of a class again, just 5 weeks had gone by, which was many years ago. Now, the shortage has become acute and we know that we are going to have a huge shortage well into the  2050s. In the UK. student numbers will rise with 500.000 to 3 million next year and in the US. immigration is causing a huge demand for teachers as well. Why would you 'suffer' so many hardships in Korea, simply because you "love teaching" ? Come back home and help us help yourselves, because even after a few years you will make more than in Korea and eventually you will make that top bracket of $70.000-80.000 and all that in a nice suburb in the good ol' USA or the UK or in the EU.

  • There is a huge shortage of qualified teachers, but a future acute demand
USA 200.000 teachers and in the UK 20% shortage consistently for the past few years.

  • Every January positions from schools looking for substitute teachers has grown larger and harder to fill.
  • Each year, more and more job openings appear around April and are harder to fill for the new school year, many schools start the year with some vacancies left open.
  • in Primary education the shortage is acute, with some schools either closing down or reverting to a 4-day school week to deal with sick leave or not having anyone qualified at the entire school.
  • If you retrain as a Maths, science or IT teacher you will instantly be hired for life, a friend of mine got instantly highest payscale fresh out of college.
Teach in the UK programmes:
https://www.teachfirst.org.uk/training-programme
https://www.pointtopointeducation.com/instant-assessment/

vacancies:
https://www.tes.com/jobs/search?siteCountry=gb&locations=United%20Kingdom&experiences=Suitable%20for%20NQTs&keywords=&subjects=English

I don't know much about the US, but on 60 minutes this topic repeatedly resurfaces. If you are a UK citizen you can immediately start teaching while getting qualified, I am sure similar programmes must exist in the US for US citizens.

I found this opening for Phonics teaching assistent in the UK after 5 min. of browsing: http://teach-now.co.uk/job/early-years-teaching-assistant/
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The school is looking for an enthusiastic individual to support in an Early Years class, Monday – Friday for the hours of 8:30am – 4:00pm. They are looking for someone who has experience and is confident working with phonics. The chosen candidate must be able to completely commit to the role, continuity is key.
Qualifications for this are not required but experience is ideal.

It simply cannot be true that it is hard to find a teaching job for an ESL-lifer. I am not that special and I found a sponsor school easily. If you cannot find anyone to fill your job openings as a school principal, then someone with years of experience is far more attractive than putting a Syrian refugee in class. (Another govt. scheme of training people to become primary school teachers.)
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Amsterdam city council has asked civil servants and Syrian refugees with teaching experience to step into the classroom because of a teacher shortage at the start of the school year.

The Dutch capital has been among the areas worst affected by a lack of teachers nationwide.

About 15,000 pupils were sent home from schools in Amsterdam in the past six months because their teacher was sick or absent, while about 8,000 primary school children are yet to be assigned a teacher for the new year.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 11:34:59 pm by Cohort 2019 »
incumbo studiis


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2020, 04:07:36 am »
Alberta for example has a $15 minimum which works out to about 2.35million won a month for a 40 hour week.

In northern Alberta no one will work for under $18 dollars and rent is cheap as the economy failed. You can literally rent a hotel room for 400-500 a month which includes all utilities.
There might be a correlation there...

As has been demonstrated on this site by others, ESL now broadly pays the same as, and in some cases lower than manual labour jobs in factories, farms, construction sites etc. Yeah, you get to sit at a desk for hours but that factory worker stuffing chicken into boxes takes home the same pay as you or more...without that expensive degree you had to pay for as a requirement to get here.
True. Go home and work on an oil platform or in a coal mine or on a fishing trawler and you might make more as well. Or even here. You also might lose a finger, go missing at sea (and these days that doesn't even get you a shanty to be remembered with) or come down with the black lung.

There's also the fact that your entire industry can get shut down the next time some regulations or hazards pop up. Avian flu outbreak? Half of you are getting sent home and will have no job for the season.
So when your boy trump says that the US economy is stronger than it's ever been, you're disagreeing?


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2020, 08:03:17 am »


As far as financial meltdowns, you have to compare capitalist economies to mixed to heavy socialist ones. The socialist ones aren't islands of prosperity by any means and have their own meltdowns or long-term malaises. You also have to consider countries that have high amounts of natural resources and low populations cannot apply the same principles to every other country.

We are not just looking at economics here. We are also factoring in quality of life. The stock market is crushing it right now in the U.S.A. Can you honestly think that this has an impact on the average American worker...  Unless you are one of those gullible conservatives that still believe in fairy tale trickle-down economics. But we see how these big corporations are just buying back stocks and increasing their own wealth instead of increasing wages. If this wasn't the case then so many citizens wouldn't need to travel across the planet just to find a decent job that doesn't treat their employees like commodities but I digress.

Also, If you look at countries with higher socialist bents such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden then you can see that they are generally much happier and have a better quality of life compared to the rest of the world. If you look at South American countries which tend to lean socialist and say " Oh look at Venezeula.. Clearly socialism doesn't work " then you also have to factor in how much the United States is out there meddling with these smaller nations and factor that in. When you have the CIA constantly mucking about and being involved in keeping foreign nations unstable you no longer have the right to look at those socialist countries in a vacuum. Hell, the United States sent young men to die in droves at the mere mention of communism despite it being a world away in some cases. At any rate, when you point to these socialist countries you also have to check and see if the U.S isn't out there messing with their elections, forking with their economy, or all-around trying to act like the all-powerful big brother to these smaller nations. Too many people want to point at countries like Venezuela as an example that socialism doesn't work but conveniently leave out all the ways that the United States keeps everyone else down.  And I say that as an American. What the American govenrment is doing around the world should be paintfully obvious to anyone paying attention.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2020, 08:46:29 am »
You sound like an uninformed conspiracy theory nut.

Median wages for white males and Asian males in the USA are very high. (Do you know what a median is?)

More Koreans are trying to get into the US than Americans trying to get into Korea. (Look at the percentages.)

Venezuela, North Korea, etc., ruined themselves through bad governance. It's not the  fault of America their economies are crap.

America: the land of opportunity.

IF you're not a loser.

The way capitalism works is you are rewarded according to the value you provide others.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2020, 08:59:47 am »
Average wage of an American nurse practitioner: $114k.

For the service they provide they are compensated accordingly.

Is it impossible to get that job?

No.

But it's not easy.

It requires study.

It's doable, however (depending on one's level of drive and intelligence that is).


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2020, 09:05:14 am »
Alberta for example has a $15 minimum which works out to about 2.35million won a month for a 40 hour week.

In northern Alberta no one will work for under $18 dollars and rent is cheap as the economy failed. You can literally rent a hotel room for 400-500 a month which includes all utilities.
There might be a correlation there...

As has been demonstrated on this site by others, ESL now broadly pays the same as, and in some cases lower than manual labour jobs in factories, farms, construction sites etc. Yeah, you get to sit at a desk for hours but that factory worker stuffing chicken into boxes takes home the same pay as you or more...without that expensive degree you had to pay for as a requirement to get here.
True. Go home and work on an oil platform or in a coal mine or on a fishing trawler and you might make more as well. Or even here. You also might lose a finger, go missing at sea (and these days that doesn't even get you a shanty to be remembered with) or come down with the black lung.

There's also the fact that your entire industry can get shut down the next time some regulations or hazards pop up. Avian flu outbreak? Half of you are getting sent home and will have no job for the season.
So when your boy trump says that the US economy is stronger than it's ever been, you're disagreeing?
The rest is just a comparison of the costs-benefits of ESL vs. blue collar jobs that have comparable wages (or higher) but also entail physical risk.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2020, 09:15:48 am »

The way capitalism works is you are rewarded according to the value you provide others.

Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2020, 09:28:48 am »
We are not just looking at economics here. We are also factoring in quality of life. The stock market is crushing it right now in the U.S.A. Can you honestly think that this has an impact on the average American worker... 
Given that the Great Depression and other stock market downturns have led to recessions that have affected American workers, and during boom cycles employment and new industries have emerged like in the 90s, yes.

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Unless you are one of those gullible conservatives that still believe in fairy tale trickle-down economics.
I don't believe in trickle-down as an answer, but yes, stuff does trickle-down, whether it's good or bad. In boom times that can substantially improve people's lives, in times of marginal growth that can be pennies on the dollar.

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. If this wasn't the case then so many citizens wouldn't need to travel across the planet just to find a decent job that doesn't treat their employees like commodities but I digress.
There's plenty of jobs back home if you are willing to engage in blue collar labor. But many are unwilling to do that because of physical laziness or because it lacks sex appeal to their friend group.

Also, by any objective measure, your life right now, even as someone making mediocre wages, is incredibly good compared to most of humanity right now, and nearly all of it in history. Your life expectancy is into the 70s. You enjoy control over your climate. 3 squares of food choice a day. Hours spent in leisure. Rapid transport across the land. Programs galore are available.

But some people can't see that. All they can see is that someone has more than them and it makes them jealous, envious, and angry. And they don't think they should earn it, they should have it given to them. Yes, the rich can be exploitative and we need guards against that and to take care that low-income does not equal impoverished., but the low-income are not some inherently noble bunch either. What's remarkable is that these types who hate the rich constantly bitch about them and trash their lifestyle, but then turn around and want more.

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Also, If you look at countries with higher socialist bents such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden
1) You're an idiot if you think those countries are socialist. The underpinnings of their economy are the free market, trade, and economic innovation.
2) Those countries all have populations a fraction of the United States'.
3) In the case of Sweden and Norway, they have a relatively large amount of natural resources to population
4) They didn't spend 45 years policing the globe and keeping other countries safe from Communism. If they had been left on their own, almost all of their economy would have been dumped into defense for 45 years trying to stave off Soviet encroachment.

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Oh look at Venezeula.. Clearly socialism doesn't work " then you also have to factor in how much the United States is out there meddling with these smaller nations and factor that in
Venezuela is a basket case because they tied their entire economy to oil and made intensive government spending decisions based on the assumption that high oil prices would remain stable. Whether that counts as socialism or not is up for debate. I'm rather indifferent as that's a mistake any country can make, whether they are capitalist or socialist or fascist-anarchist or Commie-Nazi.

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then you also have to factor in how much the United States is out there meddling with these smaller nations
Well according to the left, Russia is meddling with the United States, so everything that is happening isn't even because of the United States then, if you accept this and go along with your premise.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2020, 09:31:07 am »
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2020, 09:34:37 am »
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.
Is this really about the best system that can be conceived or is this something more personal and visceral for you? Isn't this just the reverse of some conservative pointing to some bum or welfare queen and using that odd example to disprove an entire concept?

What other system do you propose that allows one to profit off of their own innovation and creativity? The Bureaucratic Socialist Republic isn't going to allow that either. Instead everything just goes to government officials and apparatchiks. The thing is that power is what causes exploitation, not your economic system. Any system under the sun will concentrate wealth and inherited privilege in the hands of the powerful. If you aren't dominated by corporate executives you are dominated by Party HQ and 1000 inspectors and commissars.

Take wealth and power and give it to the teachers and you'll just get a tyranny of teachers instead of a tyranny of CEOs/celebrities.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2020, 09:42:05 am »
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

.

How does one even argue with this? 

Ok guys. Carry on.  Peace.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2020, 01:01:23 pm »
 "Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working."

 I think that $100,000 figure is somewhat disingenuous: I'm sure SOME teachers reach that level (everything included) after many years of teaching/seniority, but I'm pretty sure most don't.
 
Yes, it can be a good job when the hours worked/vacation time is considered, but many teachers in many US States have to do a lot of unpaid extra work within their respective school systems to maintain a viable educational standard...

I think the following list is probably a more realistic indication of the salary picture.

https://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2020, 01:08:50 pm »
To calculate total remuneration (meaning including retirement benefits, etc.) double the salaries you see.

So yeah, six figures.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2020, 07:17:09 pm »
If you think teaching in the US is well-paid and easy and gives you a lot of vacation time, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in.

People don't stay in teaching or take teaching jobs in the first place because it's notoriously difficult and underpaid. School districts are now hiring teachers from the Phillipines rather than pay American teachers better or make working conditions better.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit