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  • The Legend

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    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2020, 06:04:20 pm »
Doesn't matter, most "average" (in your words) hagwon jobs are not working 25 hours and then let you go do whatever you want, most actual average hagwon jobs are 30 teaching hours and your breaks are spread throughout the day. As a result you're basically working 40 hours but with lots of breaks. MAYBE you can leave a half hour early one or two days a week. You don't have blocks of hours and hours of free time where you can go work somewhere else. And if you work less than 30 hours you will accordingly be paid less, 25 hour part-time jobs that pay full time salaries are not the norm. There basically is no deskwarming at hagwons, and there's little need for any lesson planning. But you're still expected to be there at 9 or 10 and finish teaching at 6 or 7. I really don't get why it's so hard for people here to grasp what is standard and expected in the vast majority of hagwon jobs, but what else should I expect from a community that simultanously believes that you can and can't make more money back home in the West.

Really the best you can hope for is to have a hagwon boss who owns other hagwon businesses on the side in the neighborhood and sends you out to teach extra classes under the table. But that's still working more than 40 hours, and you're only looking at an extra few hundred thousand extra a month. Not an extra million. Also this might work out ok in March and April, but by November hagwon students start dropping out and classes get shuttered.

I mean it's pretty laughable telling us "if you work more hours you can make more money" and treating it like it's some kind of wise epiphany. The rest of us can do math too.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 06:07:33 pm by MayorHaggar »
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Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07
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  • NorthStar
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2020, 06:06:27 pm »
She does not look convinced...


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2020, 07:01:00 pm »
Her video is really quite the stretch...

"Tell your future boss your are proficient in intercultural communication"

--- He'll probably roll his eyes, go what the f*ck kind of liberal arts BS is this... and then assume it's a reference for negotiating prices with bar girls in Soi Cowboy.


"You can talk to just about anyone"

--- So people who don't teach English are incapable of talking?  All those doctors out there are using pantomime at work??


"Better at Networking"

---- If you were better at networking you wouldn't be working in Korea in the first place.


"You have better administration skills"

--- Ummmmmmm


"Power point skills, time management skills, teaching skills"

---- Possibly, but that depends on the person.


I've seen guys go back home after long stints teaching in Asia.  Not everyone is the same, but many are doing low level jobs, often working in the service sector.

Some of the older teachers who went home are permanently unemployable.


Do your time in Asia... have fun for a year.... but don't stay more than a year.





  • Cohort 2019
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2020, 07:43:26 pm »

I disagree, just go home and jobs will get thrown at you. I never had JSA and stood back in front of class in a matter of weeks (against my will but I was asked to).  And yes, some schools can be tough, and I have had tough days but that seems nothing different from Korea and I have had nothing but wonderful colleagues and thankful and motivated kids, especially those struggling the most or the ones with the lowest IQs. As long as you are gentle, kindhearted and forgiving to the worst kids you will be all right. I still have very fond memories of that inner city school and the endearing emails I got after I left.

Why would you consider warping your extensive experience to fit a weird business mold if you could apply at any middle-or high school and present them with your invaluable ESL experience which is currently the most cutting-edge revolutionary pedagogy taking our work field practice by storm? Despite some of the irksome discussions and blatant disregard of what I consider political sanity, I respect each one of you because I know that any lifers are highly proficient at 'unplugged ESL teaching' and are extremely pragmatic and innovative in their methodology compared to the majority of the English teachers that I work with now who depend heavily on scripted classes and books. I think that the more you know about teaching English the less you need to rely on books, or indeed you could teach any book at any school in any country to anyone.

All you would need is a few years of some hard graft back at Teacher's college back home.
I believe piggydee is doing it now as well back in the UK, isn't she? And for Americans I think there is a lot of work available as an ESL teacher to Spanish speaking immigrants.

I would have to assume based on my own experiences that if you find it hard to get employed back home as a teacher then perhaps your qualifications aren't up to scratch yet and schools cannot hire you, which is then down to your own choice of not taking advantage of the many government schemes available to aspiring teachers.
Let me reiterate: there is a growing demand for teachers in the UK/EU/USA which is only to get much much worse  https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/06/us/international-teachers-us-shortage/index.html
If Korea is no longer your thing, then please do come back and help your own country to move forward instead of wasting your skills in a far-off country 11.000 miles away. Stay, if you love the pollution and your future prospects there. Those were my reasons for leaving, but I did enjoy my time and I don't regret having stayed there for several years.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 08:27:21 pm by Cohort 2019 »
incumbo studiis


  • NorthStar
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2020, 08:28:01 pm »
Do folks every wonder WHY there is a shortage of teachers in the U.S.?

It is not that easy to just go home and go to "teachers' college".
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 08:33:04 pm by NorthStar »


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2020, 08:43:48 pm »
Boomers are retiring.

Not as many millennials going into teaching. They want to be YouTubers and Instagram influencers.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2020, 08:44:39 pm »
Boomers are retiring.

Yes, exactly in droves, all around the world. Good teachers are becoming urgently scarce.
It is not that easy to just go home and go to "teachers' college".
I agree that the route seems rive with obstacles, but depending on your own character/professionalism, schools love it that you have worked in Education for years consecutively, without taking up any sick leave or showing up late etc. and that you have shown a true 'passion' for teaching. Any grey hairs added to the mix only heighten that perception. As for getting back to Teachers' college (thx for correction :azn: ) I was in class with a few 50 and 60-year-olds, and schools accomodate you as much as possible. I had 1 study day off per week and could always get extra leave for exams.

My current school had many applicants but they had chosen me because of my ESL -TOEFL/Cambridge and that I came across as a well-rounded individual who had gained a lot of life experience.

It has been mentioned before but I still find it hard to fathom that the cultural differences are so stark that schools in the US. would be so horrendous. Perhaps some schools, in bad neighbourhoods, similarly as to some schools in London, but how terrible could an elementary class of South American immigrants wanting to learn English ever get?

And I still believe that if you are a solid but kindhearted teacher, that even the worst classes would eventually come around and enjoy having classes with you. Maybe you will have a tough first year, but all teachers have to go through a few tough years until they gain that unquestionable amount of authority and respect necessary to teach at such schools. Also, because of the shortages, good teachers get recruited by the best schools, so if you happen to end up at a really bad school, it needn't be much longer than one or two years. If anything, it helped me tremendously to have been forced to manage very difficult classes in my first few years, because now, when I enter an Upper Sixth class I have that wisened, grizzled teacher's aura of unquestionable respect.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 09:01:07 pm by Cohort 2019 »
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  • NorthStar
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2020, 09:06:45 pm »
It has been mentioned before but I still find it hard to fathom that the cultural differences are so stark that schools in the US. would be so horrendous. Perhaps some schools, in bad neighbourhoods, similarly as to some schools in London, but how terrible could an elementary class of South American immigrants wanting to learn English ever get?

And I still believe that if you are a solid but kindhearted teacher, that even the worst classes would eventually come around and enjoy having classes with you. Maybe you will have a tough first year, but all teachers have to go through a few tough years until they reach that unquestionable amount of authority and respect necessary to teach at such schools. Also, because of the shortages, good teachers get recruited by the best schools, so if you happen to end up at a really bad school, it needn't be much longer than one or two years. If anything, it helped me tremendously to have been forced to manage very difficult classes in my first few years, because now, when I enter an Upper Sixth class I have that wisened, grizzled teacher's aura of unquestionable respect.

I am not disrespecting your post..or, at least, attempting to.  I see the value in what you wrote. 


It still remains, though.  Simply going back to university and getting certified, no matter how much experience abroad, all depends on the undergraduate GPA...even from 20 years ago.  In addition. it is no secret that there have been way more educational "administrators" hired, than teachers. The teachers that are hired, along with the administrators, are the  new breed...in which have contributed to the fall of educational standards in the U.S.  The profession has been manipulated, being morphed into the customer service industry.  Having to toe the line, according to the failing methods and policies back in the U.S., seems far fetched, to someone who actually has an idea of what to do in the classroom. 

With that said, one of the biggest factors lacking in the classroom, in the US, is discipline....along with parental involvement and accountability...wh ich leaks on the student.

Look, I'm not trying to spray weed-be-gone on what you have to say.   But, when the students have more power than the teacher, that is a problem.  This does not include the financial costs.  One has to have the right undergraduate degree, simply to get accept into a Post-Bach program....or, start all over (at least in the U.S.).  This also means having to be classmates with those of the worst generation, who have bought into (until they actually get in the classroom) the ideas/ideals that were spoon fed to them. 

Yes...I am positive that there are gems in the U.S., regarding teaching opportunities.  But, at least it seems, there is another problem.  The education industry in the U.S. is not very welcoming to male teachers. 

I'm sorry...I went on a rant.Again, I'm not dismissing your stance out of spite....I just don't agree.  Though, I'd like to. 


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2020, 09:23:20 pm »
You were totally not ranting. I would love for you to find a way into teaching back home and you are right in saying that 1: you have to start over 3/4-year degree and 2: changing expectations.

I started over and it was all paid for. And yeah there is a lot of truth in what you are saying about the hold that students have over you and what you can say or can do in class. Especially with all the smartphones you just have to assume that you are always being recorded non-stop. But I am not an exceptional person, any ESL lifer can do what I did and adjust to a new reality. If anything, I enjoy it more because I am working with people of my own culture and that is so much easier all across the board. We do work in a female-oriented 'soft' profession, you are right in that, but the value of good male teachers is definitely appreciated, especially to offset all the soft pampering done in Elementary school. When I teach high schoolers I am very 'macho' as a rolemodel for the young 17/18-year-old men in my class. When I teach first graders, I am very gentle and forgiving and all I ever want from them is to do well and never give up. 

It would be a great shame if you would ever consider to return home but wouldn't because you would think it would be too hard to get back in college and start over. Evening classes are relatively small and most colleges offer 'blended learning' which is that you study mostly at home and only come to take tests.
-------------------

Actually, come to think of it, I have a pen pal project with a teacher in San Diego, whose kids don't have access to email or computers. That sounds pretty disadvantaged to me, but at the same time they are really into writing letters to my students, that really does not sound to me as if that is a terrible class in which no one is paying attention and the teacher is desperately yelling for them to open their books. So, are all US schools really so undisciplined as Martino makes them out to be?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 09:32:38 pm by Cohort 2019 »
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  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2020, 09:37:32 pm »
Its amazing that ESL jobs are even being filled when you can work without a degree in the USA or Canada and earn more than in Korea .

probably because the real unemployment rate in the US is different to what they claim it is.
Catch my drift?


  • L I
  • The Legend

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2020, 09:42:52 pm »
Take off the tin hat, Cyanea.  :rolleyes:


  • L I
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2020, 09:48:01 pm »
Youngsters are coming to Korea for the Kpop experience.

Analysts say demand for the gear is growing as the popularity of K-Pop bands spreads beyond the domestic market across other parts of Asia and into the West.

Japanese fans outside the store told Reuters they had flown in because the Gangnam store had more stuff than the three BTS stores in their own country. About 1,500 fans or more visited the store during a single day last week.

Im hoping to buy whatever I can, said Rebecca Mould, 25, originally from the U.S. city of Boston, a BTS fan for about two years on her first visit to the store. I already have a lot, so whatever else there is...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-christmas-season-kpop-bts/k-pop-fans-brave-seouls-christmas-chill-to-buy-bts-merch-idUSKBN1YS0MM


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2020, 10:59:13 pm »
Stop posting misinformation, gogators. Your decimal point is in the wrong place.
Right. It's .4%, still the lowest since 1966.

A mistake is not misinformation.


  • stoat
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2020, 11:53:42 pm »
Youngsters are coming to Korea for the Kpop experience.

Analysts say demand for the gear is growing as the popularity of K-Pop bands spreads beyond the domestic market across other parts of Asia and into the West.

Japanese fans outside the store told Reuters they had flown in because the Gangnam store had more stuff than the three BTS stores in their own country. About 1,500 fans or more visited the store during a single day last week.

Im hoping to buy whatever I can, said Rebecca Mould, 25, originally from the U.S. city of Boston, a BTS fan for about two years on her first visit to the store. I already have a lot, so whatever else there is...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-christmas-season-kpop-bts/k-pop-fans-brave-seouls-christmas-chill-to-buy-bts-merch-idUSKBN1YS0MM

It may be big in the States but I've just been all over the UK on holiday and never saw or heard anything about k pop. Someone called Stormzy seemed to be the latest thing plus I heard the name Drake. Saw the usual pics of Ed Sheeran, Little Mix and Ariane Grande about the place. Of BTS not a hide nor hair. Not even any calendars in the WH Smith half price after Xmas bucket I'm afraid
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 03:03:25 am by stoat »


  • waygo0k
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2020, 07:50:23 am »
Doesn't matter, most "average" (in your words) hagwon jobs are not working 25 hours and then let you go do whatever you want, most actual average hagwon jobs are 30 teaching hours and your breaks are spread throughout the day. As a result you're basically working 40 hours but with lots of breaks. MAYBE you can leave a half hour early one or two days a week. You don't have blocks of hours and hours of free time where you can go work somewhere else. And if you work less than 30 hours you will accordingly be paid less, 25 hour part-time jobs that pay full time salaries are not the norm. There basically is no deskwarming at hagwons, and there's little need for any lesson planning. But you're still expected to be there at 9 or 10 and finish teaching at 6 or 7. I really don't get why it's so hard for people here to grasp what is standard and expected in the vast majority of hagwon jobs, but what else should I expect from a community that simultanously believes that you can and can't make more money back home in the West.

You just described a kindergarten, or in some cases a hellwon, not your average hagwon.

Let's take a little trip through the Korea ESL job vacancy world:

Starting salary: 2.1 ~ 2.5 million won/month, dependent on qualifications
Working House: MWF: 1 p.m.~8/9 p.m., TT: 2 p.m.~10 p.m.


What's that? 1pm to 9pm? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78696

Salary : 2.1 mil won
Working hours : from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm Monday to Friday(2 working Saturdays a year)


Low salary, but also low working hours??? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78771

Working Time: 8:30 to 5:30 Mon-Fri.

Monthly Salary: 2.7M KRW (Negotiable)


Hold on a minute...that has definitely got to be UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78800

Working days/hours: Mon - Fri - 5 days. 13:00 - 19:00/30 hours per week
Salary: 2.1 million won – 2.2 million won


I hope the point is starting to set in now...

Hours: 12:30PM to 8:30PM, Monday-Friday
Salary 2.1+ million KRW monthly


http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78642

Notice these are direct ads from schools themselves...I could go on and on and even start posting countess recruiter ads that have similar working hours. Besides, imagine you work at your hellwon from 9am to 7pm...you're really trying to say it is impossible to find a hagwon with classes from 8-10pm to teach part time in??? In Korea???  :undecided: :undecided:

Really the best you can hope for is to have a hagwon boss who owns other hagwon businesses on the side in the neighborhood and sends you out to teach extra classes under the table. But that's still working more than 40 hours, and you're only looking at an extra few hundred thousand extra a month. Not an extra million. Also this might work out ok in March and April, but by November hagwon students start dropping out and classes get shuttered.

No, that is not the best you can hope for according to multiple people (Kyondo, Oglop, Chinguetti, Van, me, Ronnie, Stoat) on this site with first hand experience of having more than one job and pulling in 3-5mil per month. Just because YOU refuse to believe it can happen (in spite of the evidence)...doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen.

I mean it's pretty laughable telling us "if you work more hours you can make more money" and treating it like it's some kind of wise epiphany. The rest of us can do math too.

Imagine that huh...even with all the math that was presented to you in the other thread, you still refused to believe the people telling you their own personal experiences and instead chose to move the goalposts and nitpick on things like "And you public school dudes can humblebrag all you want about your fat salaries and yearly raises, but have fun when your county or province fires non-renews all the NETs to save money"...because you have nothing to fall back on but misconstrusion and falsehoods.


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2020, 08:01:59 am »

I disagree, just go home and jobs will get thrown at you.

LOL. Here we go again with the unverifiable bullshit no doubt backed up by anecdotal "evidence." Sure there are plenty of jobs back home if you are ok with working uncertain hours in retail (which is now basically heavy labor) or working in a call center or flipping burgers or driving for Uber.

And I like how you qualify it in the same post with "if you go back to teacher's college." Yes people with an education degree can get jobs easily in certain countries (probably only the US and UK and only very recently here in New Zealand) but most E-2s don't have an education degree. So that means retraining which costs money. Even if it's paid for and even if you do a one-year teaching degree you'd still have to do something to pay for rent and food and so on until you graduate. All your savings from Korea will be gone pretty quick. And then after all that hard work you end up with a "great" teaching job working probably 80 hours a week and making less money per month after you pay rent than you did at your "shitty" 40 hours a week job in Korea.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2020, 08:09:25 am »


You just described a kindergarten, or in some cases a hellwon, not your average hagwon.

Let's take a little trip through the Korea ESL job vacancy world:

Starting salary: 2.1 ~ 2.5 million won/month, dependent on qualifications
Working House: MWF: 1 p.m.~8/9 p.m., TT: 2 p.m.~10 p.m.


What's that? 1pm to 9pm? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78696

Salary : 2.1 mil won
Working hours : from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm Monday to Friday(2 working Saturdays a year)


Low salary, but also low working hours??? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78771

Working Time: 8:30 to 5:30 Mon-Fri.

Monthly Salary: 2.7M KRW (Negotiable)


Hold on a minute...that has definitely got to be UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78800

Working days/hours: Mon - Fri - 5 days. 13:00 - 19:00/30 hours per week
Salary: 2.1 million won 2.2 million won


I hope the point is starting to set in now...

Hours: 12:30PM to 8:30PM, Monday-Friday
Salary 2.1+ million KRW monthly


http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78642

Notice these are direct ads from schools themselves...I could go on and on and even start posting countess recruiter ads that have similar working hours. Besides, imagine you work at your hellwon from 9am to 7pm...you're really trying to say it is impossible to find a hagwon with classes from 8-10pm to teach part time in??? In Korea???  :undecided: :undecided:

LOL all you're doing is proving my point. You're just showing jobs that make less than 3m a month, and the ones with shorter hours pay less. If you wanted to make 3m a month with the lower hour jobs you'd have to work at least 50 to 60 hours a week if not more and that's only if you got permission to get a second job and somehow found one that fit around the other hagwon's schedule. Also Chungdahm has the reputation of being the worst ESL employer in Korea.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • oglop
  • The Legend

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    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2020, 08:11:31 am »
waygo0k: fyi i was talking about having an F visa. it's easy to make more money with an F visa, but not so easy on an E2 -- although not impossible


  • waygo0k
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2020, 08:25:33 am »


LOL all you're doing is proving my point. You're just showing jobs that make less than 3m a month, and the ones with shorter hours pay less. If you wanted to make 3m a month with the lower hour jobs you'd have to work at least 50 to 60 hours a week if not more and that's only if you got permission to get a second job and somehow found one that fit around the other hagwon's schedule. Also Chungdahm has the reputation of being the worst ESL employer in Korea.

30hrs at your main job (maximum) plus 15-20hrs at your side gig gives you a 45-50hr teaching week.

Lets say you do 2hrs prep time each day because you like to take your time with prepping...thats a 55hr to 60hr work week for 4.5-5mil per month on an E2. I know this because Ive done it.
(Waygo0k, October 13, 2019) - https://www.waygook.org/index.php?topic=118472.msg804841#msg804841

At least you're starting to warm to the idea and repeating most of what I've already said and trying to make it sound like your own   ;D ;D

waygo0k: fyi i was talking about having an F visa. it's easy to make more money with an F visa, but not so easy on an E2 -- although not impossible

Totally agree.