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  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #140 on: January 06, 2020, 12:22:14 pm »
I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata). Are you now going to argue that this median wage you've been touting is, in fact, "pathetic"?

1) I checked just one job - first one I came acroos so within the top six- and it was below that. Should I believe you? Not gonna waste my time looking at the links. Maybe later.
2) I wasn't touting $51k; that was you. (Where'd you get that number?)  Me was this:

Quote
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700

Do you think you'll ever get close? (Note this is for a bachelors not masters.)

3) Arguing with you is tiresome and taking up time so I might dip out.
4) If not, show us the graph.



  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #141 on: January 06, 2020, 01:35:29 pm »
Jesus, you love moving the goalposts, don't you?

I point toward reasonably compensated ESL jobs in the US and UK and you say I'm talking about Korea. I explicitly say "average wage" and you return with "Do you know what a median is?" I start using the median supplied by the National Center for Education Statistics and but apparently I'm supposed to disaggregate by gender, as if women don't work in this field. I show you a job that exceeds said amount and you exclude 12% of the pay. I suggest a group of people to whom such a job would appeal and you incorrectly claim that Korean universities would prevent them from doing it during a summer break.


In fact, that last claim is a great example of the kind of pseudo-authoritative BS that I often see on Korean ESL discussion forums. Ninety-nine percent of the conversations look like this:

OP: Hey, I've been in Korea for four years and just completed an MA TESOL at Sookmyung Women's University. I've been offered a job at Xiamen University in China but I don't know whether to take it. I don't really want to leave Korea and have concerns about China, but it seems like the easiest way to get university teaching experience. Does anyone know anything about Xiamen?

Respondent 1 (BA in Psychology, 2nd semester EPIK teacher): No one will take your Korean degree seriously. You made a big mistake. Total waste of money.

Respondent 2 (BA in History, 3rd year hagwon teacher): I hope you're not planning on coming back to Korea after teaching there. Universities aren't counting teaching in China as real experience anymore. It's not like the good old days. Also, for any university job in Seoul or Busan, the unofficial requirement is actually like four years of uni experience and a PhD.

Respondent 3 (BA in Sociology, 5th year kindergarten teacher): An MA TESOL doesn't really qualify you for anything since it's mostly theoretical. Most good employers, including universities, want at least a CELTA on top of an MA. Also, I don't know why anyone would want a university job in Korea. They've done away with the long vacations and pay is usually under 2.5 million.

Respondent 4 (MA in Geology from 1996 that was never applied toward an education job, 1st year hagwon teacher, recently relocated to Korea after major life change): I applied to several Korean universities and got NOWHERE! It's all about who you know. If you don't have some kind of inside connection, your application goes straight in the bin. I know a LOT of professors, and they all tell me this.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 01:38:16 pm by fka »


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2917

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #142 on: January 06, 2020, 02:13:33 pm »
lol. That's pretty good actually.

I think we are all guilty that sometimes. Taking our own limited experience or those of our social circle and assuming its true in every situation everywhere. And then telling everyone about it.

LI has always been a negative nelly. His old bugbear was the difficulty the Korean language and nobody would ever succeed in learning it to a decent level and we shouldn't even bother trying.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5151

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #143 on: January 07, 2020, 05:40:51 am »
An assumption that I had up until not too long ago was that the vast majority of middle and highschools were gender segregated. I was discussing... something... uh, hmmm... something super important that I can't quite remember right now, and was looking up stats and realized that while the majority of students go to segregated schools, it was a pretty small majority. Like 54-56 % or something like that.
   It was pretty shocking to me because, in my area, there's not a single coed middle or highschool to be found. I just assumed the same was true everywhere in Korea. Well, guess not. Oops.


  • kberger
  • Adventurer

    • 49

    • September 09, 2010, 10:05:48 pm
    • Wisconsin
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #144 on: January 08, 2020, 09:44:39 am »
Interesting thread.  I read the whole thing. 

I have to agree with patrickbateman, if you're an american male that doesn't mind blue collar work, you can do well back in the US.  When I got back to Wisconsin several years ago, I was just like "must... make... money."  I became a truck driver and it has worked out pretty well.  These days, I deliver crap to restaurants in the middle of the night.  It is no one's dream job, but it pays pretty well.  I made $98k last year.

I did think about being a teacher in the US, but I got the feeling it is a pain in the a   that just takes too long.  There has been a way to become a teacher without a certificate in the bad parts of Milwaukee.  It is something like they give you an emergency exemption from the certificate requirement, and you have to work toward getting all that praxis stuff done.  I have heard the the teacher shortage is now out in the rural parts of the state too.  Maybe a similar program will be in place in other parts of the state.  I know no details, I thought about it, and I decided I don't really want to be a teacher that bad.

I think jobs like a trade is a can't miss proposition.  I think kids have been told for decades that they have to go to college to be somebody, and it is now hard to find an electrician or plumber under the age of 60.         

 


  • Colburnnn
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1176

    • August 10, 2015, 05:52:37 pm
    • South Korea
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2020, 11:04:26 am »
Interesting thread.  I read the whole thing. 

I have to agree with patrickbateman, if you're an american male that doesn't mind blue collar work, you can do well back in the US.  When I got back to Wisconsin several years ago, I was just like "must... make... money."  I became a truck driver and it has worked out pretty well.  These days, I deliver crap to restaurants in the middle of the night.  It is no one's dream job, but it pays pretty well.  I made $98k last year.

I did think about being a teacher in the US, but I got the feeling it is a pain in the a   that just takes too long.  There has been a way to become a teacher without a certificate in the bad parts of Milwaukee.  It is something like they give you an emergency exemption from the certificate requirement, and you have to work toward getting all that praxis stuff done.  I have heard the the teacher shortage is now out in the rural parts of the state too.  Maybe a similar program will be in place in other parts of the state.  I know no details, I thought about it, and I decided I don't really want to be a teacher that bad.

I think jobs like a trade is a can't miss proposition.  I think kids have been told for decades that they have to go to college to be somebody, and it is now hard to find an electrician or plumber under the age of 60.         

 

I am a qualified electrician back in the UK. I completed 4 years of training and examinations to call myself that.

I ran my own small business for a while after I qualified, but my GOD the red tape bull that goes along with it. Actually doing the work was not so bad, and depending on the job actually highly enjoyable. But the paperwork and constant changing of regulations/forced examinations year upon year made me give it up.

I'd like to teach design and technology in the UK, but it appears there is just as much bull to put up with that I'd be better off just bashing some houses again if I went home.
Haven't you got some pictures of birds to be jacking off to, son?

Colburnnn: Complains a lot, very sassy. Has a loudmouth.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2020, 06:26:19 am »
Lol. I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata).

O RLY? Here are all the jobs on the link, with salaries converted to $USD:

$52,477-56,940
salary not specified
$47,587. $915 a week plus 12.07% holiday pay
$45,583
$44,259-52,802
$45,557 plus 12.07% holiday pay
$42,975-46,939
$49,771-61,061 ("The courses are uniquely STEMM-focused")
$39,934-44,264
$66.17 per teaching hour (Seems high but there is a lot of time spent doing administrative work, so the wage per hour worked is actually much lower.)
$19,650-30,232
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ _____

The most highly qualified EFL teachers abroad- those who invested in it as a career with a MATESOL, DELTA, and years of experience will be competing for these highest end jobs. Salaries seem low to me. Especially for the cream of the crop high responsibility professional jobs in this industry. Just my opinion though. The other problem is adjusted for inflation wages in this line of work are going down. So how good something is now will not be how good it will be five years from now.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4181

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2020, 07:44:13 am »
These are most definitely NOT high end EFL jobs...at least when we're talking about people with the highest level qualifications and experience.

Here is an example of an EFL job listing:

*Salary
Teachers with a BA and 4 years $48000
Teachers with a MA and 8 years $55000

*Fully paid winter and summer vacation

*Housing
$8500
Furnished housing is provided for teaching staff. Single bedroom apartment for individual teachers, two bedroom apartment for individual teacher with dependents and teaching couples. Upgrades to 2 or 3 bedroom apartments are available with the employee paying the difference in cost.

*Housing Allowance
$8400 (yearly)

*Moving Allowance
$2000
An initial moving reimbursement allowance is provided to teachers, $2000 for individual teachers, $3000 for teaching couples or teachers with dependents

*Annual Airfare
$2000 Provided at start of employment
Airfare to training in Arizona, USA as well as to China is provided by the School
Annual Travel Allowance is provided by the school each year of employment. $2000 for individual teachers or $3000 for teachers with dependents

*Contract completion bonus (equivalent to one month's salary per calendar year completed with the school) paid at the end of the contract


We're talking $66,000 for 20-25 teaching hours per week at this international school, with minimal expenses. Their salary scale is the same regardless of what subject you're teaching. This isn't even a high end school, their salary is upper mid range in the international school industry, where salaries can approach $100k per year for the absolute top teaching (not administrative) jobs.

http://basisinternationalgz.com/home/index.php
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 07:48:34 am by waygo0k »


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2020, 08:11:08 am »
Lol. I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata).

O RLY? Here are all the jobs on the link, with salaries converted to $USD:

$52,477-56,940
salary not specified
$47,587. $915 a week plus 12.07% holiday pay
$45,583
$44,259-52,802
$45,557 plus 12.07% holiday pay
$42,975-46,939
$49,771-61,061 ("The courses are uniquely STEMM-focused")
$39,934-44,264
$66.17 per teaching hour (Seems high but there is a lot of time spent doing administrative work, so the wage per hour worked is actually much lower.)
$19,650-30,232
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ _____

The most highly qualified EFL teachers abroad- those who invested in it as a career with a MATESOL, DELTA, and years of experience will be competing for these highest end jobs. Salaries seem low to me. Especially for the cream of the crop high responsibility professional jobs in this industry. Just my opinion though. The other problem is adjusted for inflation wages in this line of work are going down. So how good something is now will not be how good it will be five years from now.

What did you use for currency conversion? I used xe.com. Maybe exchange rate fluctuations account for some variation.

Anyway, my point was that someone who was motivated and took their ESL career more seriously could pick up an extra 5k for six weeks of work if they were so inclined. Again, if ESL isn't working out for you, go do something else. I've never disputed that that's good advice. There are many career paths that provide more money than ESL. That doesn't change the fact that the average starting salary for certified teachers in the USA is $39,249 (http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-average-starting-teacher-salary.html), or the average house price in California is $589,700, the median rent across the whole United States is $1,216 for a one-bedroom apartment, and the average health insurance premium is $440. For me, on balance, it works out better to have long vacations and pocket a grand in savings per month by staying in Korea, doing a job I actually like (after 15-odd years of doing jobs I hated and never making decent savings or getting out of debt).

It's no secret that education does not provide a road to riches. I wouldn't ever argue otherwise. If I ever had a point to make, it's been made or it's fallen on deaf ears, so I'll for now I'll just join the rest of the choir and say yeah, get out of ESL, or Korea or whatever. If it's making you unhappy, do something else.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2020, 08:34:29 am »
What did you use for currency conversion? I used xe.com.

I used that, too.  Both today and when you first made the post. Double check the numbers if you don't believe me. Looks like you gave us some factually inaccurate information.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2020, 08:45:28 am »
Anyway, my point was that someone who was motivated and took their ESL career more seriously could pick up an extra 5k for six weeks of work if they were so inclined.

Well, yeah if they get a MATESOL and DELTA first. Those are expensive  and time consuming to obtain. Then you have a chance to make $5k in six weeks, which is $43k a year (if you went all year without taking a vacation day) ... but you gotta compete with others to get the job. There's no guarantee it's yours.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2020, 08:48:08 am »
That doesn't change the fact that the average starting salary for certified teachers in the USA is $39,249

And what's the average starting salary for a first year English  teacher in Korea? I mean, are you gonna compare experienced teachers in Korea with starting teachers in America?


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2020, 08:51:30 am »
the average house price in California is $589,700

People want to live there I guess. That demand pushes up prices. Especially in IT hot spots where salaries are high.

Incidentally, the average salary for a teacher in California is $80,680. Plus a big benefits package.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2020, 08:55:23 am »
Yep, if you want to be a teacher in California you should go there and do that. Just like I said.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2020, 09:00:22 am »
The average American home price is $226,800. To use average teaching salaries as a whole (well, starting salaries), then talk about just Californian home prices is a bit misleading in my opinion.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #155 on: January 09, 2020, 09:01:19 am »
You're right.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #156 on: January 09, 2020, 09:04:00 am »
Here is an example of an EFL job listing:

International schools are not EFL. They provide education for the kids of the Western expats working abroad.

Teaching certification leads to more money than a MATESOL and DELTA.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #157 on: January 09, 2020, 09:06:57 am »
L I, why are you still working in ESL?


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4181

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #158 on: January 09, 2020, 09:24:34 am »

International schools are not EFL. They provide education for the kids of the Western expats working abroad.
Teaching certification leads to more money than a MATESOL and DELTA.

Lol...you have zero idea.

Maybe a few token international schools might be majority expat kids...in the majority of these schools around the world, the vast majority of the student population are the children of wealthy and middle class local families. This also applies in western countries.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #159 on: January 09, 2020, 09:29:17 am »
Wikipedia says this: "These schools cater mainly to students who are not nationals of the host country, such as the children of the staff of international businesses, international organizations, foreign embassies, missions, or missionary programs."