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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2020, 08:49:15 am »
Yeah you can notice that Cohort is leaving out a lot of details or fudging over stuff. I didn't even catch that he wasn't teaching in the UK even though he's talking as if he were, and is recommending that even Americans should go teach in the UK. If you think US immigration laws sound bad, they're even worse in the UK. All kinds of minimum income requirements and savings requirements even if you're married to a Brit.

Anyway if you guys think I'm being too dour, I'm about to start a teaching job here in New Zealand. I've been here since February 2018. Fortunately if you have a bachelor's degree of any kind you can do a one-year graduate teaching degree (not a master's degree, it's basically a top-up to your bachelor's) which I did during 2019. The degree cost quite a bit of my Korean savings because new residents can't get a year of free tuition like Kiwis can. For the last year and a half I had to do casual work which was the ONLY thing available, which sucked, I had a good amount of free time to do classwork but I was lucky to make like $1200 US a month. And I had to do three months of unpaid internships which cut more into my savings. Now I'm basically broke but I'll start a new job next week which will pay about what I was making in Korea except for the fact that I now have to pay rent, so I'll end up making less. Most jobs don't pay much here, even teaching, and rents keep going up, but at least I live in the one part of NZ that seems kind of affordable.

Anyway, for all the people still living in Korea who haven't been back home in years and are spreading misinformation about Korea and about back home, and all the people who went back home and are spreading misinformation about Korea and back home, either you know you're lying or you're painfully deluded. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us when you're bullshitting, but most people here just stay silent about it and either like the drama or don't want to get flamed by bullshitters who can't stand being talked back to.

Just keep in mind that most E-2's are like 22 to 25 years old and this is their first time leaving their home country for very long. For many of them it's their first real job. The vast majority of them do not have education degrees. At some point, unlike the bullshitter lifers, they will go home. They will find it tough. They'll find that millenials are happy to pay 50% or more of their salary on rent, and so everyone else is expected to be happy with low wages and high rent as well. They'll find that the "booming economy" back home means retail or Uber or call center work. They'll find that retail is basically heavy labor now. They'll find that all those years of experience in Korea don't count for much. So yeah they probably will want to retrain, which costs time and money. Eventually they'll make the same amount they were making in Korea, but now they'll be paying rent. It'll be years before they're making more than Korea money after paying rent. And it will be worth it, because you're not in crowded, dirty Korea with its poisonous food. But don't ever pretend it will be easy to get back to that point.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 11:17:43 am by MayorHaggar »


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2020, 11:43:26 am »
The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth

Do you know what a median is?

Why are median wages for college graduates so high?

Why are median wages for males so high?

Why are median wages for whites so high?

Why are median wages for Asian Americans so high?


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2020, 11:46:06 am »
The longer one stays in Korea, the lower the odds he'll ever be able to achieve the median. Then he'll say, "Oh well, money can't buy happiness." As a cope.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2020, 11:50:53 am »
...look at this bag of suck.

https://www.worknplay.co.kr/Work/Detail/Job/214530


No, money does not buy happiness...but it can provide you a ticket there.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2020, 11:52:23 am »
Teaching in Korea can be fun and satisfying but it's dangerous to do it too long.

1) Wages and conditions are declining slightly with each passing year.

2) It's not building up in demand skills. Most Westerners never become fluent in Korean. Even if they did it's not widely spoke around the world like Spanish.

3) Looks deteriorate with age. There is age discrimination. The older you are, the harder it's gonna be. Not just in Korea but anywhere.


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    • January 05, 2020, 07:44:59 am
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #105 on: January 05, 2020, 01:01:45 pm »
Not to sure about the minimum wage angle but the average hogwan salary seems not to have shifted much.  My first job was in 2000 on 1.6, in 2001 2.2 last was 2.8 in 2006.  However it doesnt have to be only about the money, if you are happy and feel you are getting paid fairly and having the experience you sought then that is awesome.  Back in nz i get over 11 million won, but pay shite loads in tax, mortgage, power, water, phone, insurance, superannuation, petrol, etc.  Disappears fairly quickly.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2020, 01:51:24 pm »
First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses.

WRONG!

Real wages are adjusted for inflation. So "stagnating" means just as good as before. Going up after being adjusted for inflation (even if just slightly) means better than before.

Incidentally, wages for college grads have been going up the fastest. Unskilled factory jobs took the biggest hit due to automation (and to a lesser extent being shipped overseas). 


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2020, 01:58:15 pm »
Secondly, extreme outliers do affect the median

That's laughable. The median is the point at which half the population is above and half below.


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2020, 02:13:12 pm »
Quote
..look at this bag of suck.

https://www.worknplay.co.kr/Work/Detail/Job/214530

Yeah, there hasn't been much 'Bewegung' in terms of salary in the last 20 years.
'


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2020, 02:36:04 pm »
What graph?

Post it here.

One of us is going to eat humble pie.

And I'm guessing it's going to be you (because you didn't realize it was figures adjusted for inflation).

SHOW US THE GRAPH!


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2020, 04:09:30 pm »
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700


  • oglop
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    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2020, 04:24:29 pm »
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700

wow. much higher than uk wages


  • Cohort 2019
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #112 on: January 05, 2020, 04:35:55 pm »
@Mayor
I'm glad to hear you have found your way back into teaching and I am certain you will soon become an invaluable addition to your school. A 1-year Teaching licensing route sure sounds a lot better than my 4 years! And once you get your masters you will earn much more. Sure the first few years are tough, but I never said that that part was easy.

I know that at least Debbie is also teaching and studying at the same time so perhaps it is a European system, I am sorry I was unaware that even within the Commonwealth things differ. All I ever wanted to do is show people that there is a demand for qualified teachers back home and that I spent 4 years together with mostly Brits and Americans at a Dutch evening course getting qualified and that all the figures point to a dire situation for all our children across the entirety of the EU continent. Teachers are increasingly harder to find and weird solutions such as refugees/bakers/mothers are proposed to fill in the gaps and that is why ESL teachers would not find it hard to get employed. Of course, I made an error in assuming that Americans would find it just as easy but clearly  things are done differently in the US, or rather, not solved.

There are two reasons why I am so adamant about my message:
1) We do see an awful lot of people here who are feeling rightfully disappointed.
2) Why are we teaching Korean students if our own country desperately needs us?

I am still convinced that I am not that special and that any ESL lifer could apply here, so if I see a school looking for a native speaker, I will be sure to post it here and help you out with any questions you might have. My interest solely being to help desperate schools find the best English teachers around and that is you! Work permits for Americans cannot be that hard especially in the field of teaching. I am not bullshitting, I have dual citizenship which made it easier but the UK has the same programmes as Belgium, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden etc. I am just not that sure about Greece or Italy because their finances are in ruin so I don't think the govt. can afford it.

EVERYBODY is retiring...
incumbo studiis


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #113 on: January 05, 2020, 05:51:10 pm »
I'm not going to get a master's here, I don't see the point though I may reconsider down the road. I got a graduate teaching degree. I know, it sounds like a master's degree, but it's not. Standard bachelor's degrees take three years here instead of four, and you can do a three year teaching bachelor's. But if you're like me and you already have a bachelor's in something not related to education, even one from overseas, you can do a one-year graduate teaching program here which makes you equivalent to having the three year bachelor's in teaching.

When I moved here I would have been content to not go back to teaching and would have been happy to do any kind of work, but I found that was impossible. There's no full-time work here, even for minimum wage, unless you want to do something awful and backbreaking like stand outside all day in the rain setting up traffic cones or doing slave labor in an unheated Dickensian warehouse. I couldn't even find part-time jobs in retail or whatever so I ended up doing casual work which mostly worked out.  I guess part of it is that I'm not from here so nobody wants to take a chance on yet another immigrant. But once I finally got my degree I got a job pretty quickly.


  • waygo0k
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #114 on: January 05, 2020, 07:44:07 pm »
A post graduate certificate is 1/3 of a masters. It’s masters level work. All you need to do is obtain the remaining 120 credits...which you can do over the course of another 2 semesters to qualify for a masters degree.

Doesn’t even have to be full time either.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 07:46:11 pm by waygo0k »


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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2020, 08:07:45 pm »
It's hard and it must have been tough for you as well, but from now on you are paying into a good pension plan and you can 'look forward' to life -long tenure in one of the highest pay scales till you are 70! 

You said you are not from NZ, so how did you end up there? Just curious, because you are living my dream life. I have always wanted to live in NZ actually but was just a bit concerned about the earthquakes and Australia's drought. Maybe I might go teach there when I am 60 or so. :)
incumbo studiis


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #116 on: January 06, 2020, 12:40:20 am »
LOL so now Waygook has gone from "u can make 3 to 5m a month ez with a BA in basket weaving" straight to "the market is fucked and you'll be lucky to make 1.9m."

I guarantee if anyone teaching English in Korea goes home you'll end up making less than 2.1m a month after paying rent, but at least the food will be good and the air will be clean and everything will be in English. Eventually you'll make more but only after several years of hard work and some expensive and time-consuming retraining. The job market in the West has gotten a lot more cut-throat than it was like 5-7 years ago, even with the booming economy.

I was making 3k a month in the states...except that after Uncle Sam took a cut of the monthly paycheck, it was more like 2k and change. Cheapest rooms available in my city are 700-800 USD a month. A monthly Metrocard is another $150. Going out for dinner is at least 20-25 USD per person. Seems great at first, but then you realize how much of a ripoff living in the states really is


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #117 on: January 06, 2020, 07:40:49 am »
In the words of Jim Rohn, it’s not that prices are too high, it’s that your salary is too low. (Too low = below average.)


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  • Waygook Lord

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    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #118 on: January 06, 2020, 08:00:48 am »
Where are these good jobs was akin to “show me the graph”. You were saying an MATESOL would lead to a good job in Korea. I said don’t count on it because so many already have it. And there aren’t that many high level openings here. Supply and demand. I said that including in the USA (and everywhere on earth) other masters are more valuable.


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #119 on: January 06, 2020, 08:06:44 am »
You said “plenty of opportunities” for MATESOL holders. I should have said the good job openings are “few and far between”. Autocorrect got me. But you get the point?