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  • Cohort 2019
  • Expert Waygook

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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2020, 02:07:49 am »
Wow, so sorry to hear. It's not just here but the same all over Europe and with a UK citizenship you'd absolutely have no trouble working across the EU.

So incredibly stupid that the US doesn't provide more support to aspiring teachers. It is utterly unimaginably shortsighted of the Edu. Dept. knowing how we're in such a mad scramble to fill vacancies already and it's only 2020...I'll get back to you on that, surely some schools should be interested in native speakers for the next year. Screw the US school boards then!

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I am going to go back fairly shortly, but my path requires me to save up, pay for tuition at a local university, spend around 2 years getting an MA in teaching, and then finally get a license AFTER that.

Please keep us updated!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 02:50:10 am by Cohort 2019 »
incumbo studiis


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2020, 08:49:15 am »
Yeah you can notice that Cohort is leaving out a lot of details or fudging over stuff. I didn't even catch that he wasn't teaching in the UK even though he's talking as if he were, and is recommending that even Americans should go teach in the UK. If you think US immigration laws sound bad, they're even worse in the UK. All kinds of minimum income requirements and savings requirements even if you're married to a Brit.

Anyway if you guys think I'm being too dour, I'm about to start a teaching job here in New Zealand. I've been here since February 2018. Fortunately if you have a bachelor's degree of any kind you can do a one-year graduate teaching degree (not a master's degree, it's basically a top-up to your bachelor's) which I did during 2019. The degree cost quite a bit of my Korean savings because new residents can't get a year of free tuition like Kiwis can. For the last year and a half I had to do casual work which was the ONLY thing available, which sucked, I had a good amount of free time to do classwork but I was lucky to make like $1200 US a month. And I had to do three months of unpaid internships which cut more into my savings. Now I'm basically broke but I'll start a new job next week which will pay about what I was making in Korea except for the fact that I now have to pay rent, so I'll end up making less. Most jobs don't pay much here, even teaching, and rents keep going up, but at least I live in the one part of NZ that seems kind of affordable.

Anyway, for all the people still living in Korea who haven't been back home in years and are spreading misinformation about Korea and about back home, and all the people who went back home and are spreading misinformation about Korea and back home, either you know you're lying or you're painfully deluded. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us when you're bullshitting, but most people here just stay silent about it and either like the drama or don't want to get flamed by bullshitters who can't stand being talked back to.

Just keep in mind that most E-2's are like 22 to 25 years old and this is their first time leaving their home country for very long. For many of them it's their first real job. The vast majority of them do not have education degrees. At some point, unlike the bullshitter lifers, they will go home. They will find it tough. They'll find that millenials are happy to pay 50% or more of their salary on rent, and so everyone else is expected to be happy with low wages and high rent as well. They'll find that the "booming economy" back home means retail or Uber or call center work. They'll find that retail is basically heavy labor now. They'll find that all those years of experience in Korea don't count for much. So yeah they probably will want to retrain, which costs time and money. Eventually they'll make the same amount they were making in Korea, but now they'll be paying rent. It'll be years before they're making more than Korea money after paying rent. And it will be worth it, because you're not in crowded, dirty Korea with its poisonous food. But don't ever pretend it will be easy to get back to that point.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 11:17:43 am by MayorHaggar »
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Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
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Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2020, 10:58:45 am »
People who think that a low US unemployment rate means a great salary and its associated lifestyle need to get familiar with Cornell's Job Quality Index.

https://qz.com/1752676/the-job-quality-index-is-the-economic-indicator-weve-been-missing/

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Right now the JQI is just shy of 81, which implies that there are 81 high-quality jobs for every 100 low-quality ones. While that’s a slight improvement from early 2012—the JQI’s 30-year nadir—it’s still way down from 2006, the eve of the housing market crash, when the economy regularly supported about 90 good jobs per 100 lousy ones.

Or, in plainer English, the US labor market is nowhere near fully recovered from the Great Recession. In fact, the long-term trend in the balance of jobs paints a more ominous picture.

“The problem is that quality of the stock of jobs on offer has been deteriorating for the last 30 years,” says Dan Alpert, an investment banker and Cornell Law School professor who helped create the index. (Along with Alpert, the index is built and maintained by researchers at Cornell University Law School, the Coalition for a Prosperous America, the University of Missouri-Kansas City, and the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.) The “whole story” told by the index, he adds, is “the devaluation of American labor.”

The reason that average salaries for degree holders seem high in the US is because a lot of people 50+ are included in the data. The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth, concentrations of wealth in particular geographical areas, and in certain industry sectors. Look at the data for people under 40 and exclude major wealth centers (which have extremely high costs of living), and the numbers are very different.

The people here who claim that you can walk into a 50k+ job and get a big house with a swimming pool with a BA and some teaching experience in Korea are either deluding themselves out of desperation, choosing to focus on selective anecdotes rather than broader data, or working some weird ulterior motive, like cheerleading the Trump economy.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 11:23:27 am by fka »


  • L I
  • The Legend

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    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2020, 11:43:26 am »
The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth

Do you know what a median is?

Why are median wages for college graduates so high?

Why are median wages for males so high?

Why are median wages for whites so high?

Why are median wages for Asian Americans so high?


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2020, 11:46:06 am »
The longer one stays in Korea, the lower the odds he'll ever be able to achieve the median. Then he'll say, "Oh well, money can't buy happiness." As a cope.


  • NorthStar
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #105 on: January 05, 2020, 11:50:53 am »
...look at this bag of suck.

https://www.worknplay.co.kr/Work/Detail/Job/214530


No, money does not buy happiness...but it can provide you a ticket there.


  • L I
  • The Legend

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    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2020, 11:52:23 am »
Teaching in Korea can be fun and satisfying but it's dangerous to do it too long.

1) Wages and conditions are declining slightly with each passing year.

2) It's not building up in demand skills. Most Westerners never become fluent in Korean. Even if they did it's not widely spoke around the world like Spanish.

3) Looks deteriorate with age. There is age discrimination. The older you are, the harder it's gonna be. Not just in Korea but anywhere.


  • Fidel
  • Explorer

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    • January 05, 2020, 07:44:59 am
    • Nz
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2020, 01:01:45 pm »
Not to sure about the minimum wage angle but the average hogwan salary seems not to have shifted much.  My first job was in 2000 on 1.6, in 2001 2.2 last was 2.8 in 2006.  However it doesnt have to be only about the money, if you are happy and feel you are getting paid fairly and having the experience you sought then that is awesome.  Back in nz i get over 11 million won, but pay shite loads in tax, mortgage, power, water, phone, insurance, superannuation, petrol, etc.  Disappears fairly quickly.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2020, 01:43:44 pm »
The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth

Do you know what a median is?

Why are median wages for college graduates so high?

Why are median wages for males so high?

Why are median wages for whites so high?

Why are median wages for Asian Americans so high?

First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses. Secondly, extreme outliers do affect the median - just less so than the mean. The median income for college graduates under 40 is around $51,000. If you live within commuting distance of where the high-paying jobs are (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, the Bay Area, San Diego, Portland, Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas) you can expect to pay about 1/3 of your income on rent. So from the median, that leaves you with $34,000 left over before taxes, medical insurance, commuting costs and any debt repayments. Sure, rent in a few areas will come in a bit lower than 33% but in several it will be closer to 50%.

If that sounds like an appealing situation to you, then great, have at it. Or if you're content with your income being on the lower end of the scale and living somewhere like Alabama, where your social life will consist of sipping sweet tea and listening to the bullfrogs, then by all means go for it. But let's be realistic about what the situation portends for the rest of us.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 01:36:14 pm by fka »


  • L I
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    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2020, 01:51:24 pm »
First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses.

WRONG!

Real wages are adjusted for inflation. So "stagnating" means just as good as before. Going up after being adjusted for inflation (even if just slightly) means better than before.

Incidentally, wages for college grads have been going up the fastest. Unskilled factory jobs took the biggest hit due to automation (and to a lesser extent being shipped overseas). 


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2020, 01:58:15 pm »
Secondly, extreme outliers do affect the median

That's laughable. The median is the point at which half the population is above and half below.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2020, 02:13:12 pm »
Quote
..look at this bag of suck.

https://www.worknplay.co.kr/Work/Detail/Job/214530

Yeah, there hasn't been much 'Bewegung' in terms of salary in the last 20 years.
'


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #112 on: January 05, 2020, 02:19:54 pm »
First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses.

WRONG!

Real wages are adjusted for inflation. So "stagnating" means just as good as before. Going up after being adjusted for inflation (even if just slightly) means better than before.

Incidentally, wages for college grads have been going up the fastest. Unskilled factory jobs took the biggest hit due to automation (and to a lesser extent being shipped overseas).

I was looking at a graph of absolute median salaries, not real wages, from 2000-2019. So yes, if you look at real wages, it's a basically a flat line.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #113 on: January 05, 2020, 02:36:04 pm »
What graph?

Post it here.

One of us is going to eat humble pie.

And I'm guessing it's going to be you (because you didn't realize it was figures adjusted for inflation).

SHOW US THE GRAPH!


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #114 on: January 05, 2020, 02:46:22 pm »
You'll laugh at me, and I deserve it, but I was on a different computer earlier and I honestly can't find the graph.  :laugh:

It's possible that it was inflation-adjusted, though, and I made a mistake. That said, it was definitely "spikier" than most real wage graphs. If I find it I'll post it.

Like I said, if you want to move to the US from Korea with BA, gamble on earning $51k+ and enjoy living in whatever part of the country offers you this, good luck and I wish you well.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4995

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2020, 04:09:30 pm »
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700


  • oglop
  • The Legend

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    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #116 on: January 05, 2020, 04:24:29 pm »
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700

wow. much higher than uk wages


  • Cohort 2019
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Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #117 on: January 05, 2020, 04:35:55 pm »
@Mayor
I'm glad to hear you have found your way back into teaching and I am certain you will soon become an invaluable addition to your school. A 1-year Teaching licensing route sure sounds a lot better than my 4 years! And once you get your masters you will earn much more. Sure the first few years are tough, but I never said that that part was easy.

I know that at least Debbie is also teaching and studying at the same time so perhaps it is a European system, I am sorry I was unaware that even within the Commonwealth things differ. All I ever wanted to do is show people that there is a demand for qualified teachers back home and that I spent 4 years together with mostly Brits and Americans at a Dutch evening course getting qualified and that all the figures point to a dire situation for all our children across the entirety of the EU continent. Teachers are increasingly harder to find and weird solutions such as refugees/bakers/mothers are proposed to fill in the gaps and that is why ESL teachers would not find it hard to get employed. Of course, I made an error in assuming that Americans would find it just as easy but clearly  things are done differently in the US, or rather, not solved.

There are two reasons why I am so adamant about my message:
1) We do see an awful lot of people here who are feeling rightfully disappointed.
2) Why are we teaching Korean students if our own country desperately needs us?

I am still convinced that I am not that special and that any ESL lifer could apply here, so if I see a school looking for a native speaker, I will be sure to post it here and help you out with any questions you might have. My interest solely being to help desperate schools find the best English teachers around and that is you! Work permits for Americans cannot be that hard especially in the field of teaching. I am not bullshitting, I have dual citizenship which made it easier but the UK has the same programmes as Belgium, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden etc. I am just not that sure about Greece or Italy because their finances are in ruin so I don't think the govt. can afford it.

EVERYBODY is retiring...
incumbo studiis


Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #118 on: January 05, 2020, 05:51:10 pm »
I'm not going to get a master's here, I don't see the point though I may reconsider down the road. I got a graduate teaching degree. I know, it sounds like a master's degree, but it's not. Standard bachelor's degrees take three years here instead of four, and you can do a three year teaching bachelor's. But if you're like me and you already have a bachelor's in something not related to education, even one from overseas, you can do a one-year graduate teaching program here which makes you equivalent to having the three year bachelor's in teaching.

When I moved here I would have been content to not go back to teaching and would have been happy to do any kind of work, but I found that was impossible. There's no full-time work here, even for minimum wage, unless you want to do something awful and backbreaking like stand outside all day in the rain setting up traffic cones or doing slave labor in an unheated Dickensian warehouse. I couldn't even find part-time jobs in retail or whatever so I ended up doing casual work which mostly worked out.  I guess part of it is that I'm not from here so nobody wants to take a chance on yet another immigrant. But once I finally got my degree I got a job pretty quickly.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

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    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
« Reply #119 on: January 05, 2020, 07:44:07 pm »
A post graduate certificate is 1/3 of a masters. It’s masters level work. All you need to do is obtain the remaining 120 credits...which you can do over the course of another 2 semesters to qualify for a masters degree.

Doesn’t even have to be full time either.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 07:46:11 pm by waygo0k »