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  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1958

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2019, 01:59:12 pm »
KimchiNinja is a troll account, don't bother.


  • McTinkle
  • Newgookin

    • 4

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:48 pm
    • Busan, South Korea
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2019, 02:17:42 pm »
A far more interesting discussion is what the PISA scores actually mean about education in general and what societies want young people to learn. Do these scores really represent what intelligence is? What trends do they point to in society? Not represented here for example are creative subjects.
You could argue that the competitive nature of the economies in the higher performing countries (lots of people no jobs) means that there is an increased pressure to do well in academic subjects. What effect will this have on societies in the future? Is this really what we want?

Just don't bother arguing genetic superiority, its total BS.


  • chimp
  • Veteran

    • 128

    • April 19, 2015, 05:16:31 am
    • Zoo
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2019, 03:20:59 pm »
A far more interesting discussion is what the PISA scores actually mean about education in general and what societies want young people to learn. Do these scores really represent what intelligence is? What trends do they point to in society? Not represented here for example are creative subjects.
You could argue that the competitive nature of the economies in the higher performing countries (lots of people no jobs) means that there is an increased pressure to do well in academic subjects. What effect will this have on societies in the future? Is this really what we want?

Just don't bother arguing genetic superiority, its total BS.

Yes this post gets to the meat and potatoes of the matter. The purpose of education seems to be up in the air at the moment. Slowly the job-preparation and Gradgrindian tendency looks to be getting ahead. There's some merit to it re useful skills but it's still a rather narrow view of the purpose of education.

This is a more interesting topic than the shaky reasoning, dodgy assumptions, and huge leaps the thread started out with.
oo oo ahh ahh


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2019, 05:52:08 pm »
Despite all their money and supposed intelligence, the Chinese can't even build a basic public bathroom that isn't a crime against humanity.

Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2019, 07:00:39 pm »
A far more interesting discussion is what the PISA scores actually mean about education in general and what societies want young people to learn.

This is a more primitive and simplistic surface-level discussion than the evolutionary biology which drives population-wide socioeconomic trends. Not at all interesting to me, and really can’t be done in any competent manner when you demand to ignore the underlying drivers.

Do these scores really represent what intelligence is?

They do not. They are testing what students have learned. General intelligence is the ability to learn (more accurately, to recognize patterns).

Not represented here for example are creative subjects.

True.

You could argue that the competitive nature of the economies in the higher performing countries (lots of people no jobs) means that there is an increased pressure to do well in academic subjects.

Yes. This is the nature of the higher IQ northern societies; competitive and industrious. Also a bit dreary—training the masses to become slaves at the grain wheel, or today S&P500 corporations, to maximize GDP for the tribe. This is the purpose of the education system. If it were not so, the society would have been genetically outcompeted, and eliminated. Today, you view the survivor societies (not the American Indians, for example, who were wiped out).

What effect will this have on societies in the future?

Same effect is has had for thousands of years.

Is this really what we want?

Populations don’t get to choose, because their genetics and the environment drive their decisions.

You see kids, you really can’t parse a deeper understanding of the topic, out of the topic. You’re just left with wild questions no basis for answers.

Science is real, and kids being ignorant of large swaths of science (opinion over facts) is happening right in front of our eyes.


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2019, 07:32:20 am »
I bet you love r/sino kimchiassassin


  • fka
  • Veteran

    • 173

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2019, 08:16:32 am »
The Race and IQ cranks have no idea how utterly tedious they are, always looking for virgin soil in which to plant their seeds of racial hierarchy ideology, fertilizing their "I'm not racist" defense with "but Asians...".

We've seen this a million times before, KimchiNinja. You're not waking the sheeple. No one is going to be so bowled over by your PISA score chart that they're willing to follow you into some Reddit rabbit hole of race theories. Frankly, your brand of internet character was more fun when you were jabbing everyone about WTC7. 


And yes, ad hominem, deflection, can't argue with the substance of the post so I'm resorting to personal attacks, blah blah blah… I'll save you the trouble.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 08:25:12 am by fka »


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1510

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • Seogwipo, Jeju Island
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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2019, 08:28:43 am »
MayorHaggar: chairs are a crime against humanity. It is not as convenient to squat, but it is better for the human body.

Walk, run, lounge on your side, lie down... but do not sit on your anus. It wasn't made for that. All you'll get is hemorrhoids. And deservingly so.


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2019, 11:07:34 am »
You can talk all you want about how squats are superior, my problem is with the lack of walls! I guess having prison-style squats is better for getting to know your fellow Chinese and discussing how awesome communism and the organ harvesting of political dissidents is.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5400

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2019, 12:08:53 pm »
Why didn’t other SE Asia nations do what Singapore did? Because they genetically can’t. North Korea can, they just haven’t. There’s a difference.
    I get that "KimchiNinja" is a troll account, but this comment is perilously close to endorsing some of the more unpleasant aspects of eugenics. 
   Please go annoy people with controversial statements that are a little less historically tragic.


  • gagevt
  • Moderator - LVL 3

    • 1157

    • August 24, 2013, 01:55:38 pm
    • Gyeongbuk
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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2019, 02:22:57 pm »
Why didn’t other SE Asia nations do what Singapore did? Because they genetically can’t. North Korea can, they just haven’t. There’s a difference.
    I get that "KimchiNinja" is a troll account, but this comment is perilously close to endorsing some of the more unpleasant aspects of eugenics. 
   Please go annoy people with controversial statements that are a little less historically tragic.

Yup. I was tempted to simply lock this thread and issue a warning for trolling after reading the first post., but I wanted to add this first. I literally just came across and read this article about 30 minutes before finding this thread.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/12/04/china-is-no-pisa-heres-why-its-test-scores-are-hard-believe/

Quote
Dec. 5, 2019 at 6:02 a.m. GMT+9
Mainland China was the big winner in the newly released scores on the Program for International Student Assessment, which tests 15-year-old students in dozens of countries in math, reading and science every three years. With 600,000 students from 79 countries and school systems taking the exam in 2018, four provinces in China — which for PISA constitutes mainland China — were collectively ranked No. 1 in all three subjects.

But there is good reason to view the scores from mainland China with skepticism, and that’s the subject of this post by Tom Loveless, an expert on student achievement, testing, education policy and K-12 school reform.

A former sixth-grade teacher and Harvard policy professor, Loveless was a senior fellow in governance studies and director of the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Washington-based nonprofit Brookings Institution. He wrote 16 volumes of “The Brown Center Report on American Education,” an annual report analyzing important trends in education.


This isn’t the first time Loveless has commented on PISA scores from China. In 2013, I wrote a post questioning the No. 1 ranking of Shanghai in the 2012 PISA. In that test administration, U.S. students performed no better than average among 65 countries and education systems (like usual).

When the 2012 scores were released in late 2013, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors PISA, said the schools that were used in the Shanghai sample represent the city’s 15-year-old population. Loveless, then at the Brookings Institution, and some China experts said that migrant children were routinely excluded from schools in Shanghai, which is wealthier than the rest of China. The OECD has stood by the results.

Incidentally, in the 2018 PISA results, Singapore was second in all three subjects. U.S. students ranked eighth in reading, 11th in science and 30th in math, with scores that have not significantly changed since PISA began a few decades ago.


By Tom Loveless

The 2018 PISA results are out. Generally, countries scored within an expected range given their past records. Except one. The scores are astonishing for B-S-J-Z, an acronym for the four Chinese provinces that participated: Beijing, Shanghai, Jiangsu and Zhejiang. Out of 77 international systems, B-S-J-Z scored No. 1 in all three subjects: reading, math, and science.

The four Chinese provinces taking PISA changed from 2015 to 2018, with Zhejiang taking the place of Guangdong. The 2018 group’s scores are dramatically higher than those of the 2015 group (which appropriately is called B-S-J-G). In fact, the differences are so large that they are bound to raise eyebrows.

B-S-J-Z’s scores are 61 scale score points higher (494 versus 555) in reading, 60 points higher (531 versus 591) in math, and a whopping 72 points higher (518 versus 590) in science. How uncommon are differences like these? To answer that question, I examined PISA data from 2006-2015.


For each three-year test interval, I computed the changes for each country on the three PISA tests and converted them to absolute values. That produced 497 observations, with a mean of 9.5 points and standard deviation of 8.6.

So the typical change in a nation’s scores is about 10 points. The differences between the 2015 and 2018 Chinese participants are at least six times that amount. The differences are also at least seven times the standard deviation of all interval changes. Highly unusual.

A reasonable hypothesis is that changing the provinces participating in PISA, even if it was just one out of a group of four, influenced the test scores. Indeed, when I originally composed a thread for Twitter on this topic, I overlooked the change and treated the 2015-2018 score differences as if the participating provinces were the same. I apologize for the error. My mistake does underscore, however, the larger issue: that PISA scores from China should be viewed skeptically.


Why was Guangdong, China’s most populous province, dropped from participating and Zhejiang added? Is it only a coincidence that scores soared after the change?

The past PISA scores of Chinese provinces have been called into question (by me and others) because of the culling effect of hukou on the population of 15-year-olds — and for the OECD allowing China to approve which provinces can be tested. In 2009, PISA tests were administered in 12 Chinese provinces, including several rural areas, but only scores from Shanghai were released.

Three years later, the BBC reported, “The Chinese government has so far not allowed the OECD to publish the actual data.” To this day, the data have not been released.

The OECD responded to past criticism by attacking critics and conducting data reviews behind closed doors. A cloud hangs over PISA scores from Chinese provinces. I urge the OECD to release, as soon as possible, the results of any quality checks of 2018 data that have been conducted, along with scores, disaggregated by province, from both the 2015 and 2018 participants.

The credibility of international assessments rests on the transparency of test procedures, including how participants are selected and the rules for reporting test results. The OECD risks undermining the credibility of PISA by not being open on its conduct of the assessment in China.

What kyndo said. 8)
"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2019, 03:46:22 pm »
If you know someone's an obvious (and notorious and longstanding) troll you can always do your job and ban them.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2019, 04:20:25 pm »
KimchiNinja is a troll account, don't bother.
100%
Between the name and the content, it's obviously a deliberate windup by someone.

Regardless him and his racist crap have no place in a forum on education.


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5400

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2019, 04:35:10 pm »
But then we wouldn't have topics like this to laugh at!
 :shocked:
 :laugh:


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2019, 04:39:21 am »
The dark comedy—people from failed education system B, who deny the basic facts of homo sapien existence (e.g. outputs of Darwinian evolution), thinking they can improve superior education system A.


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2019, 04:41:18 am »
If you know someone's an obvious (and notorious and longstanding) troll you can always do your job and ban them.

"Let's ban intelligent discussion"

—Sincerely, the educators  :laugh:


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2019, 07:39:37 am »
If you know someone's an obvious (and notorious and longstanding) troll you can always do your job and ban them.

"Let's ban intelligent discussion"

—Sincerely, the educators  :laugh:

but muh "iNteLiGEnt DiScUSsiOn"


  • gagevt
  • Moderator - LVL 3

    • 1157

    • August 24, 2013, 01:55:38 pm
    • Gyeongbuk
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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2019, 07:51:07 am »
If you know someone's an obvious (and notorious and longstanding) troll you can always do your job and ban them.

"Let's ban intelligent discussion"

—Sincerely, the educators  :laugh:

I mean considering you have completely ignored my post where I link the article calling into question everything about China's PISA scores from a scientific standpoint using actual data, yet you continue to post useless comments intended to wind up users, pretty much removes any doubt that you could be anything other than a troll.
"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."