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Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« on: December 04, 2019, 06:45:42 am »
This is the future: China had the highest scores in all subjects.

Chinese students, and Korean, outcompeted American students in all categories, especially in math. And this trend should be clear as day to us living in East Asia, and with exposure to the education system. Kids here are just plain smarter, more serious, and harder working. It's a combination of IQ (genetics), as well as confucianism and generational change (culture).

This trend relates to global macroeconomics, e.g. the desperate US "trade war." From what I've seen as someone who has worked on billion dollar international deals between US and CN/KR; the US simply can't complete, due to deep incompetence. They are currently surviving on past competence, by using their built up economic/military might to bully more competent peoples into submission. This works up to a temporal point. There is a generational lag due to the time it takes for incompetent people to destroy existing institutions that were built by the competent. But ultimately, this game is not sustainable.

A society is, at its core, its people. And when its people are weak (United States), the society becomes weak over time. Conversely, when its people are strong (China), it becomes strong over time. Examples: we see China's higher science scores becoming reflected in their increasing dominance in intellectual property (way more patent filings, improving patent quality, etc). Higher math scores become reflected in superior logic/reasoning, which drives better long-term decision making. Higher reading scores become reflected in the ability to differentiate between fact and opinion (clearly lacking in the West). And so on. The trend is deep (generationally, genetically, and culturally);  no way it doesn't continue. Result? Century of China.

Reading / Math / Science
* CN 555 / 591 / 590
* US 505 / 478 / 502




"The OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) examines what students know in reading, mathematics and science, and what they can do with what they know."
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/pisa-2018-results-volume-i_5f07c754-en


  • SPQR
  • Super Waygook

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    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 07:32:51 am »
I have a daughter in the Korean school system and have no worries about
her education.  I frankly don't understand this "international" school scam.

Granted, I think international schools are for expats, with kids, who have
no knowledge of the local language and who will only be in the country
for a short while.

But people who pull their kids out of high ranking Asian school systems
and deposit them in these dubious international setups bewilder me.


  • zola
  • The Legend

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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 07:45:16 am »
First, leave out your pseudo science concepts of genetic superiority. You just undermine everything else you write by including something that wouldn't sound out of place in 1930s Germany.

Second, do you not think its's a little strange that China only submits scores from its 4 wealthiest, most developed cities? I'm sure the US could bump it's scores way up if it just decided to not count the poverty stricken South. States like Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi that come near the bottom for almost every index of measurement. Shouldn't a education system be measured on how it educates all students. Students who live in the richest cities do well at school? Shocking.

There is no denying that Asia is on the ascent. Most of us here are inside the education system in one way or another, in Korea. I think we can all agree that if there is one thing that Korean schools do well, it's preparing students to take tests.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 07:45:27 am »
Was very difficult to keep reading after you credited genetics, IQ and Confucianism.

I'd trust any figures coming out of mainland China as much as I'd trust the "From the Italy" label on the pasta from Lotte Mart.

Seems strange that China has the smartest students, yet has to rely on espionage to steal patents so they can design something. Explain to me exactly how somebody becomes particularly knowledgeable and good at critical thinking when about 50% of the internet is censored.

The birth crisis, housing bubble, trade-war, human rights atrocities, recent China is a ticking time bomb and the rich and powerful of China know it and are desperately trying to get their money out.
For your enjoyment, I'll post the recent development of a high-ranking Chinese spy defecting to Australia. He's prepared to spill ALL.

I never expected to come across a member of the 50c army on Waygook.org.

Oh, and F*ck the Chinese government!


  • Observer
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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 09:36:55 am »
Well, speaking as a resident of the apparently-soon-to-implode People's Republic*, haha:

I respect Aristocrat's posts on just about every subject *except* China. No offense, but he seems to be a bit...shall we say, excessive, in his statements on that subject. I teach my Chinese students critical thinking every day, and they are quite good at it. Yes, there are subjects we don't discuss in class, because frankly I want them to think clearly and expand their horizons past the typical Chinese nationalistic bugbears. If you really think China is different from Korea, take a group of high level Korean students and ask them to think critically about the territorial claims on the Liancourt Rocks in the Sea of Japan. See how far you get. Ask them to consider critically the provisions of the 1965 treaty between the ROK and Japan as regards the status of 'comfort women.' Whether the KPop industry exploits its stars to a greater extent than India or the US, which leads to sexual assault or suicide. The cause of Korea's suicide rate among the young. Etc. Korean nationalism is just as bad or worse than the Chinese version, and there's no need for a evil bogeyman party to blame it on.

The real criticism is simple. Shanghai, Beijing, Jiangsu and Zhejiang. These are the richest and most developed parts, besides Guangdong, and only assessing their students is basically BS. China would need to include students in less developed regions to have a fair score. I don't know why PISA lets China get away with this.

*Many people have been predicting the imminent implosion of China for many decades. The 'coming collapse of China' if you will. Well before Trump/trade war, Xinjiang/HK, etc. Perhaps this is going to happen, but wishing it fervently doesn't make it more likely. In my experience, China is quite a sturdy society. It creaks a lot, it isn't always well-structured, it can move extremely slowly or even backwards, but it doesn't break. Maybe it will, but I wouldn't bet the farm on that.


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2019, 09:40:10 am »
First, leave out your pseudo science concepts of genetic superiority.

Was very difficult to keep reading after you credited genetics, IQ and Confucianism.

There is a long history of this tired old science denialism in the declining West (these types of posts become a "case in point" on the original topic of failing education). Genetics primarily dictate outcomes, with culture being a distant secondary driver. That table is essentially a stack-rank of IQ by country, we could do a correlation and I'd guess it's around .8. Forever now, Western theorists who thought "surely it's just education, it will normalize" have been proven wrong. In fact, in this very report the researchers admit education is not normalizing the results they way they thought it would. When your theory fails to predict outcomes over and over again, it's because your theory is wrong (duh). But instead, the believers in this failed theory have become desperate and called biology/reality "racist." Sorry, biological reality doesn't care what you think; it persists.

Culturally speaking, Confucianism is obviously a key to East Asia's success. This is widely accepted as a driver of the region's focus on education, and economic success. But of course we need to ask, "why did East Asia think up this superior philosophy 2500 years ago, why didn't other nations?" The answer: differing genetic intelligence. Culture is downstream from genetics. That's just the way life works kids, and all the denialism in the world won't change it—rather the denialism is a symptom of your culture's decline.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:44:42 am by KimchiNinja »


  • chimp
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    • Zoo
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2019, 09:53:04 am »
Tell us about these billion dollar deals.

I am totally willing to entertain your argument that Americans are dumb (especially when looking at the contributors to this forum). Nonetheless, when being on the inside of these billion dollar deals do you usually make such giant leaps of logic based on dubious sources like PISA? (Plus making blanket claims about genetics and culture).

If this kind of shaky thinking goes into billion dollar deals, it's no surprise we're in trouble.
oo oo ahh ahh


  • stoat
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    • seoul
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2019, 09:58:16 am »
Quote
I am totally willing to entertain your argument that Americans are dumb (especially when looking at the contributors to this forum).

Which American contributors on this forum do you think are particularly dumb?


  • zola
  • The Legend

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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2019, 10:00:54 am »
First, leave out your pseudo science concepts of genetic superiority.

Was very difficult to keep reading after you credited genetics, IQ and Confucianism.

There is a long history of this tired old science denialism in the declining West (these types of posts become a "case in point" on the original topic of failing education). Genetics primarily dictate outcomes, with culture being a distant secondary driver. That table is essentially a stack-rank of IQ by country, we could do a correlation and I'd guess it's around .8. Forever now, Western theorists who thought "surely it's just education, it will normalize" have been proven wrong. In fact, in this very report the researchers admit education is not normalizing the results they way they thought it would. When your theory fails to predict outcomes over and over again, it's because your theory is wrong (duh). But instead, the believers in this failed theory have become desperate and called biology/reality "racist." Sorry, biological reality doesn't care what you think; it persists.

Culturally speaking, Confucianism is obviously a key to East Asia's success. This is widely accepted as a driver of the region's focus on education, and economic success. But of course we need to ask, "why did East Asia think up this superior philosophy 2500 years ago, why didn't other nations?" The answer: differing genetic intelligence. Culture is downstream from genetics. That's just the way life works kids, and all the denialism in the world won't change it—rather the denialism is a symptom of your culture's decline.

So, what if China decided to include all of it's students scores from all areas of the country instead of cherry picking the four richest places. And those total scores were only middle of the pack? What would your explanation be, then?

Or why were Hong Kong and Macau doing far better than China in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, even though they were from the same gene pool? How come it's only with massive economic development that China has shot up the ranks in these things? Surely if genetics was the driving factor then regardless of Hong Kong and Macaus's more highly developed economies and education systems, they wouldn't have meant much for those decades?
Kpip! - Martin 2018


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2019, 10:07:30 am »
The real criticism is simple. Shanghai, Beijing, Jiangsu and Zhejiang. These are the richest and most developed parts, besides Guangdong, and only assessing their students is basically BS. China would need to include students in less developed regions to have a fair score. I don't know why PISA lets China get away with this.

"Among its many findings, our PISA 2018 assessment shows that 15-year-old students in the four provinces/municipalities of China that participated in the study – Beijing, Shanghai, Jiangsu and Zhejiang – outperformed by a large margin their peers from all of the other 78 participating education systems, in mathematics and science. True, these four provinces/municipalities in eastern China are far from representing China as a whole, but the size of each of them compares to that of a typical OECD country, and their combined populations amount to over 180 million. What makes their achievement even more remarkable is that the level of income of these four Chinese regions is well below the OECD average. The quality of their schools today will feed into the strength of their economies tomorrow."—PISA 2018 Results (Volume I) pg3

I get the criticism, which they acknowledge above, but don't think it changes the usefulness of the study. China is huge, almost like many different countries. But these four regions are what we care about; they decide everything (not farmers in the middle of nowhere). It is their education that matters. Plus we get Hong Kong and Macao split out. And Singapore (which are also genetically Chinese). So there is already a lot of split out for China, more than for any other country. The top four countries—all Chinese.

BTW, to the earlier genetic deniers, Singapore is a great case study. Why is SE Asia the way it is, yet Singapore sticks out as totally different? You know the answer.

I respect Aristocrat's posts on just about every subject *except* China. No offense, but he seems to be a bit...shall we say, excessive, in his statements on that subject.

"The findings from this latest PISA round show that fewer than 1 in 10 students in OECD countries was able to distinguish between fact and opinion."—PISA 2018 Results (Volume I) pg3

It's nationalistic bias, a form of opinion. And it's totally out of touch with the facts.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 10:09:45 am by KimchiNinja »


  • chimp
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    • April 19, 2015, 05:16:31 am
    • Zoo
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2019, 10:18:00 am »
Quote
I am totally willing to entertain your argument that Americans are dumb (especially when looking at the contributors to this forum).

Which American contributors on this forum do you think are particularly dumb?

Particularly dumb you ask?

Phew, you've put me on the spot there....

I don't want to name names but I guess any political thread usually has me shaking my head muttering to myself "how can anyone be this boneheaded? no wonder people here think EFL teachers are a bit loserish."

Put those names on a dartboard and throw a dart while blind-folded. Generally with any one of those I am likely to agree with the statement "X is particularly dumb."

Like so.
oo oo ahh ahh


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2019, 10:23:09 am »
Tell us about these billion dollar deals.

Can not do that; NDA.

I am totally willing to entertain your argument that Americans are dumb. Nonetheless, when being on the inside of these billion dollar deals do you usually make such giant leaps of logic based on dubious sources like PISA?.

Nope, I haven't done a micro-analysis based on PISA. I've done a macro-analysis based on all data points across time (requires a very high IQ to synthesize). PISA 2018 is just a new data point that fits the pattern.

So, what if China decided to include all of it's students scores from all areas of the country instead of cherry picking the four richest places. And those total scores were only middle of the pack? What would your explanation be, then?

Or why were Hong Kong and Macau doing far better than China in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, even though they were from the same gene pool? How come it's only with massive economic development that China has shot up the ranks in these things? Surely if genetics was the driving factor then regardless of Hong Kong and Macaus's more highly developed economies and education systems, they wouldn't have meant much for those decades?

The best theory is the theory which explains the largest amount of observations, which I already posted. It doesn't have to explain every single data point, because that's not the way these things work (duh). But there's really only ONE big data point that stands out against the trend—why with the world's highest avg IQ, did China lag the West? There are many theories on that (size, geography, etc). But whatever the reason, it seems to be normalizing now. Case in point—genetics persist, and overcome other factors, over time.


  • zola
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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 10:28:44 am »
BTW, to the earlier genetic deniers, Singapore is a great case study. Why is SE Asia the way it is, yet Singapore sticks out as totally different? You know the answer.

It is considerably more wealthy and developed than it's neighbors?
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • zola
  • The Legend

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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 10:35:36 am »
why with the world's highest avg IQ, did China lag the West? There are many theories on that (size, geography, etc). But whatever the reason, it seems to be normalizing now. Case in point—genetics persist, and overcome other factors, over time.

There seems to be some sort of connection between wealth, development and successful education systems.....if only we could fully understand these connections.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 10:35:59 am »
Grade-school math is about learning to follow procedures. It's the perfect subject to STUDY FOR THE TEST. Asian countries like China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore are tops on standardized tests because that is seemingly what education has been reduced to in those countries. At least we see that in Korea, which is often ranked top 5 in math and science testing among grade school kids.

But we have a university education. We are well aware that there is more to knowledge and IQ than memorization and rule following.

The award-winning scientists and genius inventors of tomorrow may be mostly Chinese. It would be refreshing for Chinese companies to stop copying ideas and developing new products sans copyright infringement. Hold your breath.


  • chimp
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    • Zoo
Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2019, 10:41:01 am »
Tell us about these billion dollar deals.

Can not do that; NDA.

I am totally willing to entertain your argument that Americans are dumb. Nonetheless, when being on the inside of these billion dollar deals do you usually make such giant leaps of logic based on dubious sources like PISA?.

Nope, I haven't done a micro-analysis based on PISA. I've done a macro-analysis based on all data points across time (requires a very high IQ to synthesize). PISA 2018 is just a new data point that fits the pattern.

So, what if China decided to include all of it's students scores from all areas of the country instead of cherry picking the four richest places. And those total scores were only middle of the pack? What would your explanation be, then?

Or why were Hong Kong and Macau doing far better than China in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, even though they were from the same gene pool? How come it's only with massive economic development that China has shot up the ranks in these things? Surely if genetics was the driving factor then regardless of Hong Kong and Macaus's more highly developed economies and education systems, they wouldn't have meant much for those decades?

The best theory is the theory which explains the largest amount of observations, which I already posted. It doesn't have to explain every single data point, because that's not the way these things work (duh). But there's really only ONE big data point that stands out against the trend—why with the world's highest avg IQ, did China lag the West? There are many theories on that (size, geography, etc). But whatever the reason, it seems to be normalizing now. Case in point—genetics persist, and overcome other factors, over time.

If your IQ is that high you'll know that PISA is a dubious source then, recently described as "a black box" IIRC. You might say it's suggestive of something and I'd probably agree (especially that people out this way on average take their formal education more seriously than in America). However, you can do all the high IQ-needing syntheses you like but you can't escape Garbage In Garbage Out. PISA is a bit of entertainment at best for the newspapers and commentators to kick about for a couple of days.

Also, do tell us about these bilion dollar deals.
oo oo ahh ahh


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2019, 11:05:40 am »
BTW, to the earlier genetic deniers, Singapore is a great case study. Why is SE Asia the way it is, yet Singapore sticks out as totally different? You know the answer.

It is considerably more wealthy and developed than it's neighbors?

Why? Because high IQers from the North moved there and made it a winner.


  • zola
  • The Legend

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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2019, 12:53:12 pm »
BTW, to the earlier genetic deniers, Singapore is a great case study. Why is SE Asia the way it is, yet Singapore sticks out as totally different? You know the answer.

It is considerably more wealthy and developed than it's neighbors?

Why? Because high IQers from the North moved there and made it a winner.
It's located in the one of the most geographically  advantageous spots on earth. It was a former British colony. It is a city state and thus avoids the numerous issues that come from governing a large area of land. It was pro-western enough during the cold war and so didn't have to deal with destabilizing interference form the US, ala Indonesia, Philippines, Indochina etc.

All of these could be identified as just as likely the reason for Singaporean success. Or more realistically, a combination of all of these things.

Countries that border China share almost identical genetic makeup as Chinese. Chinese DNA (whatever you think that is) is hardly some homogeneous thing. Someone with ancestry in Harbin is as different from someone with ancestry in Kunming, as someone born in Lisbon and someone born in Moscow. Chinese history has been a continuous expansion and contraction, absorbing and losing peoples that one might consider to be Chinese in a broad sense. Why do Mongolians, Vietnamese, Laotians, all of whom share Chinese genes, not preform as well in these tests? Or maybe even more simply, why does South Korea do so well, while North Korea doesn't?
Kpip! - Martin 2018


Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2019, 01:19:54 pm »
BTW, to the earlier genetic deniers, Singapore is a great case study. Why is SE Asia the way it is, yet Singapore sticks out as totally different? You know the answer.

It is considerably more wealthy and developed than it's neighbors?

Why? Because high IQers from the North moved there and made it a winner.
It's located in the one of the most geographically  advantageous spots on earth.

It was a former British colony.

That’s what I just said—northerners.

Singapore geographically has nothing, no resources. Northerners used intelligence to create a competitive advantage out of nothingness (finance industry).  The natives complain about inequity, but there would be nothing but standard SE Asia if not for them.

Why didn’t other SE Asia nations do what Singapore did? Because they genetically can’t. North Korea can, they just haven’t. There’s a difference.

Look kid, you always do this. Confucius and Lao Tzu had smart things to say about this—when the ignorant try to argue with the experts—it brings nothing but noise, and suffering. Best to be silent and learn.


  • zola
  • The Legend

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    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
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Re: Global students: China highest scores, all categories (PISA)
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2019, 01:48:44 pm »
BTW, to the earlier genetic deniers, Singapore is a great case study. Why is SE Asia the way it is, yet Singapore sticks out as totally different? You know the answer.

It is considerably more wealthy and developed than it's neighbors?

Why? Because high IQers from the North moved there and made it a winner.
It's located in the one of the most geographically  advantageous spots on earth.

It was a former British colony.

That’s what I just said—northerners.

Singapore geographically has nothing, no resources. Northerners used intelligence to create a competitive advantage out of nothingness (finance industry).  The natives complain about inequity, but there would be nothing but standard SE Asia if not for them.

Why didn’t other SE Asia nations do what Singapore did? Because they genetically can’t. North Korea can, they just haven’t. There’s a difference.

Look kid, you always do this. Confucius and Lao Tzu had smart things to say about this—when the ignorant try to argue with the experts—it brings nothing but noise, and suffering. Best to be silent and learn.

So you just avoided every point that poked holes in your case. I'll take that to mean you can't refute the points.
Kpip! - Martin 2018