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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2019, 01:21:51 am »
Yikes I wish I could be this naive when it came to my third graders and their mischeviousness. I will admit that many third graders are quite innocent, as you might expect, in both actions and thought. And if these were second graders or younger, I'd be more willing to attribute their behavior as non-malicious curiosity or copy-catting. However in every one of my classes there are between a few and several kids (sometimes more, usually boys) whose knowledge of the world including adult themes far exceeds their level of maturity. This number of students grows significantly with each year in age.
I don't disagree that it COULD be the case, but I say with 3rd grade the possibility is still very low. I mean, it is awfully hard to attribute sexual motivation to someone who has not yet entered puberty. Now there are always early bloomers, but there was no indication of that in the post. This is why I mentioned checking for doodles that have any kind of sexual/violent connotation (beyond normal boy drawings of guns and explosions) and asking about things and most importantly ASKING AND TALKING TO THEM.

It is dangerous to let this slide and placing the NET at risk for abusive behavior. It is also rather dangerous to assume the worst about THIRD GRADERS and have a response that could well be unwarranted, especially absent any inquiry into things on their end.

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They need to be reprimanded and taught from an early age that this behavior is widly inapproprite, even if it's discovered that their intentions weren't malicious. It's this dismissive and nonchalant attitude I keep reading in the comments that allows this behavior to proliferate as students get older, to the point where they don't think anything of behaviors typically associated with sexual harassment and assault.
I agree that it needs to be addressed. I just also think assuming the worst and failing to check for signs of behavior and most importantly, NOT ASKING THEM why they did it is equally dismissive.

Unlike with adult criminal behavior in which we have a much stronger emphasis on protecting the victim and punishing people who are cognizant of what they are doing, we are dealing with juvenile delinquent behavior where given their age, it is a virtual certainty they aren't fully cognizant of what they are doing. There should be a much stronger emphasis on not treating them as offenders but rather individuals to be educated and rehabilitated.

I understand what you're trying to say and agree that a simple "boys will be boys" wave of the hand is not appropriate either. But I think jumping to "They know what they were doing is wrong- straight to punishment" and not looking into the things I mentioned is a hand wave of a different kind and potentially dangerous as well.

Quote from:  Ronnie Omlettes
Seriously what percentage of native teachers here have the ability to talk to two 3rd grade elementary school boys in Korean to make them understand what they did wrong and why?  Talk to the boys?  Go through their stuff to find other clues to their current mental state?  Some teachers here only see their students once a week and they're supposed to go through their stuff to find more evidence?  Where is the time for that?
If you're about to discipline them for sexual harassment, then yes, you need to talk with your CT/school and look into the matter thoroughly, even though you might have some communication difficulties.

You certainly can't go "Well, we don't speak the same language, so let's declare them guilty and start punishing."


Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2019, 07:15:41 am »
Quote from:  Ronnie Omlettes
Seriously what percentage of native teachers here have the ability to talk to two 3rd grade elementary school boys in Korean to make them understand what they did wrong and why?  Talk to the boys?  Go through their stuff to find other clues to their current mental state?  Some teachers here only see their students once a week and they're supposed to go through their stuff to find more evidence?  Where is the time for that?
If you're about to discipline them for sexual harassment, then yes, you need to talk with your CT/school and look into the matter thoroughly, even though you might have some communication difficulties.

You certainly can't go "Well, we don't speak the same language, so let's declare them guilty and start punishing."

What are you talking about?  Pulling aside two three-year-old boys yourself to find out why they were trying to look up your skirt could be as difficult as talking to a CT who would be able to talk to them in Korean?  We didn't mention discipline either.  Sharing problems with CTs and other teachers and reaching solutions is not the same as dropping some massive bomb on sexual harassment.  You do understand that?  Again, your gray area is arguing a pointless B or C, when we're all discussing A.   

Also, judging from your reply to gagevt's post, you obviously don't know third-graders anymore.  Gagevt has direct experience with them and gave her opinion based on that, while you're using your usual platitude of 'kids will be kids' and then jumping feet first into an argument you think you know everything about.  When you don't.  Being a teacher doesn't work like that, especially in this case.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 07:46:54 am by Ronnie Omelettes »


Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2019, 12:52:39 pm »
What are you talking about?  Pulling aside two three-year-old boys yourself to find out why they were trying to look up your skirt could be as difficult as talking to a CT who would be able to talk to them in Korean?  We didn't mention discipline either.  Sharing problems with CTs and other teachers and reaching solutions
Any solution that doesn't involve someone, somewhere talking to the kids and finding out why they did it, for this offense in particular, is a bad solution. It is quite possibly the worst thing you could do.

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Also, judging from your reply to gagevt's post, you obviously don't know third-graders anymore.  Gagevt has direct experience with them and gave her opinion based on that, while you're using your usual platitude of 'kids will be kids
We both have experience with them. Also, gagevt is simply relating his/her experience.

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. I will admit that many third graders are quite innocent, as you might expect, in both actions and thought. And if these were second graders or younger, I'd be more willing to attribute their behavior as non-malicious curiosity or copy-catting. However in every one of my classes there are between a few and several kids (sometimes more, usually boys) whose knowledge of the world including adult themes far exceeds their level of maturity. This number of students grows significantly with each year in age.
gagevt puts the age at 2nd grade. This is qualified with the term "more willing". gagevt also points out that there are a subset of kids who are more worldly. However gagevt doesn't claim that ALL 3rd graders are suddenly instantly aware of this. Nor do we have confirmation that these boys are indeed the more worldly boys. We have some signs this MIGHT be the case, but we are not certain, which again, is WHY YOU NEED TO TALK TO THE KIDS. gagevt is openly acknowledging that kids all have varying levels of development and that this will vary within a class. This is exactly why we shouldn't apply a blanket standard. Assuming that ALL 3rd graders are aware of sexual harassment and sexually motivated is an extremely dangerous way to proceed in my view.

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while you're using your usual platitude of 'kids will be kids' and then jumping feet first into an argument you think you know everything about.  When you don't. 
Yes, child development, lack of sexual motivation in pre-pubescents, and resolving disciplinary issues by asking the children why they engaged in certain behaviors is "kids will be kids".  :rolleyes:

If indeed this isn't some case of kids just mimicking something they saw on TV and it being just a joke to them but something more serious, doesn't that once again argue FOR TALKING TO THEM ABOUT IT, rather than jumping straight to discipline?

If they did do it out of sexual motivation or some extreme desire to humiliate someone, then two things are rather probable A) Someone did this to one of them B) They have likely done this to someone else. And again, that's why you see if they're doodling about this kind of thing- to see if there's a pattern of behavior. Why? For the safety of EVERYONE- teacher, other students, and yes, the boys themselves.

Remember these are elementary kids. Third graders. Disciplinary measures does not assign them "thug" status and warrant their condemnation. You have just as much a responsibility to help them as you do to punish them for misbehavior. Only focusing on punishment without the other aspects is bad teaching.


  • leaponover
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2019, 03:51:36 pm »
Really don't understand this.  Some of us guys have had boys try to shove fingers into our bungholes, yet op is devastated that some kids tried to look up her skirt?  And because of this they are young sexual predators in the making?  Beginning to realize why peeps travel out of their own country.  They probably aren't welcome there anymore.


  • Aristocrat
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2019, 06:03:31 pm »
Really don't understand this.  Some of us guys have had boys try to shove fingers into our bungholes, yet op is devastated that some kids tried to look up her skirt?  And because of this they are young sexual predators in the making?  Beginning to realize why peeps travel out of their own country.  They probably aren't welcome there anymore.

Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.




Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2019, 07:45:45 pm »
Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.
Well as someone who has had it happen to them by a first grader, I can only say that thank goodness my instinct and my reaction was not to grab their hands and break their fingers. My reaction was to try and get control of my anger and to take the kid and haul them off to my co-teacher so she could explain why it was wrong.

The poink on me bum was something I got over pretty quickly. Dragging a 1st grade girl who was screaming and sobbing in mortal terror because she thought she was about to have who knows what done to her in retaliation when all you wanted was someone to explain things to her was not something I got over. Yes, that kid never did it again. The kid also quit the after school English program the next week. That's a terrible outcome. I don't believe in going for partial success or only achieving 50%.

In retrospect I should have gone to the CT and brought her to deal with the student rather than hauling off the student to the CT. Even in an attempt to control my temper, my temper still got the better of me.

Also, never once did I view the person as a stand-in for their culture. I viewed them as an individual who needed to learn an individual lesson.


Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2019, 08:42:16 am »
Coincidentally:

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2019/12/113_279726.html?fbclid=IwAR2GZ4hgulAoL_3WqvcMKHYIBOhadTWwyhIlN2RlCfG2CiUMl4EnAliNevk

I suppose someone is going to come and say that a 5 year old knows nothing about sex and there is no way that this was sexual and blah blah blah... I think it's clear that some kids get exposed to a lot at a very young age.


  • Aristocrat
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2019, 09:37:32 am »
Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.
Well as someone who has had it happen to them by a first grader, I can only say that thank goodness my instinct and my reaction was not to grab their hands and break their fingers. My reaction was to try and get control of my anger and to take the kid and haul them off to my co-teacher so she could explain why it was wrong.

The poink on me bum was something I got over pretty quickly. Dragging a 1st grade girl who was screaming and sobbing in mortal terror because she thought she was about to have who knows what done to her in retaliation when all you wanted was someone to explain things to her was not something I got over. Yes, that kid never did it again. The kid also quit the after school English program the next week. That's a terrible outcome. I don't believe in going for partial success or only achieving 50%.

In retrospect I should have gone to the CT and brought her to deal with the student rather than hauling off the student to the CT. Even in an attempt to control my temper, my temper still got the better of me.

Also, never once did I view the person as a stand-in for their culture. I viewed them as an individual who needed to learn an individual lesson.

Would you have written this entire paragraph if you paid attention to the word 'instinctual'?


  • chimp
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2019, 10:04:59 am »
Dafuq is all this agonising about? Should've told them at the time that you know what they're doing and to cut it out. If they do it again, do as so because that nonesense just ain't on. If they persist then bring in the HR teacher and mention that those kids are being little pervs and need to have a word had with them.

Turning it into some American progressive "my body is a temple and my rights are violated by 3rd graders trying to look at my underwear" fuss is a recipe for being disliked. Just make it clear by making an announcement at the start of class- "Don't look up my skirt, that's a no-no."

oo oo ahh ahh


Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2019, 01:08:21 pm »
Coincidentally:

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2019/12/113_279726.html?fbclid=IwAR2GZ4hgulAoL_3WqvcMKHYIBOhadTWwyhIlN2RlCfG2CiUMl4EnAliNevk

I suppose someone is going to come and say that a 5 year old knows nothing about sex and there is no way that this was sexual and blah blah blah... I think it's clear that some kids get exposed to a lot at a very young age.
Body curiosity is not the same as sex. Kids will fiddle with their bodies and each others and do all sorts of things.  Especially at the onset of self-awareness and the beginnings of intelligence.

However many adults see these things and think of them in terms of adult thinking and logic, usually because they are constitutionally incapable of thinking like a kid, accurately remembering their childhood, and understanding how kids perceive the world.


Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2019, 01:17:48 pm »
Would you have written this entire paragraph if you paid attention to the word 'instinctual'?
My instincts involved anger, but no desire to immediately inflict physical harm on a child.

Also, my subsequent instincts are to treat them as an individual, not use them as some sort of vehicle for my frustrations about the local culture.


  • leaponover
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2019, 01:50:51 pm »
Really don't understand this.  Some of us guys have had boys try to shove fingers into our bungholes, yet op is devastated that some kids tried to look up her skirt?  And because of this they are young sexual predators in the making?  Beginning to realize why peeps travel out of their own country.  They probably aren't welcome there anymore.


Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.

You talk a tough game keyboard warrior, but the fact that you are still employed in this country means you don't do half the stuff you so brazenly claim.  More like they happen in that tiny fantasy world head of yours, but in reality you are still shuffling around bowing and saying na-eece to everything.

BTW, a simple "I don't like that game.  Don't touch me like that.  I'm not your friend I'm your teacher" suffices....but I'm willing to pay a kid a 50 spot just to see you put your tough guy words to actions.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 01:55:48 pm by leaponover »


  • Mr C
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2019, 02:16:10 pm »
Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.
Well as someone who has had it happen to them by a first grader, I can only say that thank goodness my instinct and my reaction was not to grab their hands and break their fingers. My reaction was to try and get control of my anger and to take the kid and haul them off to my co-teacher so she could explain why it was wrong.

The poink on me bum was something I got over pretty quickly. Dragging a 1st grade girl who was screaming and sobbing in mortal terror because she thought she was about to have who knows what done to her in retaliation when all you wanted was someone to explain things to her was not something I got over. Yes, that kid never did it again. The kid also quit the after school English program the next week. That's a terrible outcome. I don't believe in going for partial success or only achieving 50%.

In retrospect I should have gone to the CT and brought her to deal with the student rather than hauling off the student to the CT. Even in an attempt to control my temper, my temper still got the better of me.

Also, never once did I view the person as a stand-in for their culture. I viewed them as an individual who needed to learn an individual lesson.

I don't believe this story.
1)  A girl with the, let's call it, confidence, to dongchim an adult male simply isn't the type to carry on like that.  Although it is possible she was hamming it up hoping for sympathy.  But mainly:
2)  You are a liar.  You admit (with a combination of vehemence and relish) that you are a liar, and you insist that everyone lies like you do and lies so for no reason.
3)  In this case, you have a reason to lie--to prove your point.  I tend to believe you about half the time, using the smell test.  But this one stinks to high heaven.


  • Aristocrat
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2019, 02:40:31 pm »
Really don't understand this.  Some of us guys have had boys try to shove fingers into our bungholes, yet op is devastated that some kids tried to look up her skirt?  And because of this they are young sexual predators in the making?  Beginning to realize why peeps travel out of their own country.  They probably aren't welcome there anymore.


Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.

You talk a tough game keyboard warrior, but the fact that you are still employed in this country means you don't do half the stuff you so brazenly claim.  More like they happen in that tiny fantasy world head of yours, but in reality you are still shuffling around bowing and saying na-eece to everything.

BTW, a simple "I don't like that game.  Don't touch me like that.  I'm not your friend I'm your teacher" suffices....but I'm willing to pay a kid a 50 spot just to see you put your tough guy words to actions.

When I wrote the above statement, I wondered whether I should simply write my instinctual reaction or really kill the brevity by painstakingly clarifying that my senses would take control of my knee-jerk reaction and I'd probably end up just slapping their hand away and shouting at them so that the thought of doing it again wouldn't cross their mind.

I shouldn't have left such a "misleading" response and should've taken the time to clarify that which I considered went without saying.

My sincere apologies for overestimating your reading and comprehension skills.

FYI, I literally do not bow to anyone (it's against my Faith to bow or prostrate to another human being or object).
You know nothing about me, keep that in mind. 


  • NorthStar
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2019, 03:22:23 pm »
The fact that Korean crap-bag kids don't pull this dongchim nonsense with their Korean teachers, lays the foundation of a "no sympathy" policy, to some poor, 1st grade girl screaming in mortal terror, ....who will most likely NOT have her parents called.  Furthermore, IF they were called, they would find a way to blame to the NET. 



  • L I
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2019, 04:43:34 pm »


Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2019, 06:10:13 pm »
L I i forget if it's you or LIC that i generally dislike more but that comic one of the best things ive seen on this site


  • leaponover
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #98 on: December 04, 2019, 06:49:13 pm »
Really don't understand this.  Some of us guys have had boys try to shove fingers into our bungholes, yet op is devastated that some kids tried to look up her skirt?  And because of this they are young sexual predators in the making?  Beginning to realize why peeps travel out of their own country.  They probably aren't welcome there anymore.


Believe it or not, some people actually regard their person as sacred. I've never had a student try that with me and my instinctual reaction would be to grab their hand and break their damn fingers. IDGAF if it was a joke a few years ago, "Their culture has no right to your body".

Maybe you need to stick your fingers up your own ass to prevent yourself from talking out of it.

You talk a tough game keyboard warrior, but the fact that you are still employed in this country means you don't do half the stuff you so brazenly claim.  More like they happen in that tiny fantasy world head of yours, but in reality you are still shuffling around bowing and saying na-eece to everything.

BTW, a simple "I don't like that game.  Don't touch me like that.  I'm not your friend I'm your teacher" suffices....but I'm willing to pay a kid a 50 spot just to see you put your tough guy words to actions.

When I wrote the above statement, I wondered whether I should simply write my instinctual reaction or really kill the brevity by painstakingly clarifying that my senses would take control of my knee-jerk reaction and I'd probably end up just slapping their hand away and shouting at them so that the thought of doing it again wouldn't cross their mind.

I shouldn't have left such a "misleading" response and should've taken the time to clarify that which I considered went without saying.

My sincere apologies for overestimating your reading and comprehension skills.

FYI, I literally do not bow to anyone (it's against my Faith to bow or prostrate to another human being or object).
You know nothing about me, keep that in mind. 

I know that your first instinct is violence when a child goes near your butt.  That's at least one thing I know about you.  You could always not comment here if you want people to know nothing about you.


  • NorthStar
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Re: Sexually Harassed by 3rd graders?....
« Reply #99 on: December 04, 2019, 09:49:40 pm »

Quote
I know that your first instinct is violence when a child goes near your butt.

...you consider giving a well deserved slap on the hand, "violence"?