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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #140 on: November 25, 2019, 12:13:31 pm »
So much ignorance in here.

The "5000 years of history" refers to the mythical date the demi-god Dangun (son of the bear-turned-human and the god Hwanung) "founded" Korea, and is calculated to 3 October 2333 BCE based on some relative date in the Samguk Yusa. It's basically as arbitrary as the ways we date Christmas and the year 2019 CE.

No serious historians believe in "5000 years of history," any more than they believe in similar founding myths that nationalists promoted in Turkey, Hungary, or China.

If a lot of Koreans believe in it ... well, people everywhere are susceptible to blind nationalism -- more so in the past 10 years, during which proto-authoritarian powers have resurrected its uglier aspects. This is why we have Brexit, Trump, the (recently ousted) fascists in Austria, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Abe, Orban, Putin, etc etc etc.

I'd guess no greater percentage of Koreans believe in 5000 years of history than the percentage of Americans who believe in the (utter bullshit) myth of the first Thanksgiving.

The Korean political state has existed since the Seventh Century CE, which still makes it older than nearly any other nation in the world. There were people here long before that. They left pottery and other stuff you can go see. In South Jeolla there's a Bronze Age megalith quarry you can walk up to and climb around on. The question of when language, writing, and culture formed is impossible to answer, because there's no written history of the peninsula or its people before the Chinese mentioned it in their own documents.

Anyway, read a history book.


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2019, 01:49:08 pm »
So much ignorance in here.

The "5000 years of history" refers to the mythical date the demi-god Dangun (son of the bear-turned-human and the god Hwanung) "founded" Korea, and is calculated to 3 October 2333 BCE based on some relative date in the Samguk Yusa. It's basically as arbitrary as the ways we date Christmas and the year 2019 CE.

No serious historians believe in "5000 years of history," any more than they believe in similar founding myths that nationalists promoted in Turkey, Hungary, or China.

If a lot of Koreans believe in it ... well, people everywhere are susceptible to blind nationalism -- more so in the past 10 years, during which proto-authoritarian powers have resurrected its uglier aspects. This is why we have Brexit, Trump, the (recently ousted) fascists in Austria, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Abe, Orban, Putin, etc etc etc.

I'd guess no greater percentage of Koreans believe in 5000 years of history than the percentage of Americans who believe in the (utter bullshit) myth of the first Thanksgiving.

The Korean political state has existed since the Seventh Century CE, which still makes it older than nearly any other nation in the world. There were people here long before that. They left pottery and other stuff you can go see. In South Jeolla there's a Bronze Age megalith quarry you can walk up to and climb around on. The question of when language, writing, and culture formed is impossible to answer, because there's no written history of the peninsula or its people before the Chinese mentioned it in their own documents.

Anyway, read a history book.

As I said in my original post, it's my OPINION; it's my current belief based on information at hand. You're more than welcome to disagree, but calling someone
ignorant for having a different opinion to your own is simply bigoted.

I do not accept anything as historical fact until it has been verified by external sources and has written accounts of its history. I'm not denying that people didn't
live in the Korean peninsula for thousands of years and that these people are most likely the ancestors of Koreans, what I am denying is that Korea was a
civilization or an empire.

When you consider that China is still one of the most ethnically diverse nations on Earth, made up of hundreds of different ethnicities and a history of thousands
of years of conquest, it becomes very difficult to distinguish an Asian state who has their roots in China and those who do not.

Tribe > Tribal Society/Kingdom/Chiefdom > Civilization > Empire.  Every civilization I can think of has successfully to expanded its borders. Korea was never a civilization
it was a Kingdom, like the Zulus. Unlike the Zulu Kingdom, Korea never expanded its borders. Why? Well, I don't think they could or wanted. They were either in a state of
vassalage to the Middle Kingdom (China), were ruled by China or Japan, or the Korean royals and Yabgban were happy to limit military force for simply staying in power by
suppressing rebellions. Sorry, but being complacent and/or being China's bottom bitch isn't enough to warrant calling yourself a civilization, in my book.

My opinion - Korea has existed as a Kingdom for at least 1000yrs, but since they never expanded their borders (for whatever reasons), I'm not willing to acknowledge
a fraction of the grandeur that Korea asks me to believe about its past. Korea has existed for 74 yrs, no more, no less.
No verifiable written history, no civilization status. Sorry, not sorry.


Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #142 on: November 25, 2019, 02:38:20 pm »
My opinion - Korea has existed as a Kingdom for at least 1000yrs, but since they never expanded their borders (for whatever reasons), I'm not willing to acknowledge
a fraction of the grandeur that Korea asks me to believe about its past.
You know, one might argue that expanding your borders, which in essence means killing, conquest, and plundering, is not the proper barometer for "civilization".

"These people here are civilized."
"Why? They decided to kill their neighbors and take their land"
"And these people?"
"Not civilized. They just lived in peace next to their neighbors and never tried to expand."
 :rolleyes:

Whether you mean this in the moral sense or the anthropological sense, it's still a bad criteria.
Quote
I do not accept anything as historical fact until it has been verified by external sources and has written accounts of its history.
This is based on your comprehensive scholarship of Korea, as well as your extensive research into first hand accounts from Japanese and Chinese texts?

Quote
Sorry, but being complacent and/or being China's bottom bitch
And yet, the Wu, Manchuria, Tibet, the lands and peoples of Western China, and so on are all under the Chinese state, many of them facing extinction under Han assimilationist policies. Meanwhile Korea has managed to preserve it's ethnic identity and territorial integrity. They must have done something right. Is there nothing to be said for managing not to get absorbed despite being sandwiched between two massive powers? The Uighurs would give their left nut to have what Korea has. Instead they're giving their left kidney right now.

Quote
No verifiable written history
Just because you aren't familiar with it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that the source isn't accurate enough.

Quote
Korea has existed for 74 yrs, no more, no less.
Is this the consensus of historians, anthropologists, linguists, and archaeologists? Or is this just your random opinion, basically held by you and no one else?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 02:40:47 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #143 on: November 25, 2019, 02:51:29 pm »
Usually a civilization has a distinct language, artistic styles, an independently recognized government that has territory, and some kind of history.

Korea has all of those going back to at least when it was first recognized in Chinese historical documents.

When I can think of countries that don't have those, you'd have to consider artificial political states. For example, Belgium. Or countries that are simply one political division of a common civilization. For example, Saudi Arabia vs. the UAE. Heck, even independence is not necessary to actually have a civilization. I'd consider the Basque people to be a civilization.


Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #144 on: November 25, 2019, 03:01:19 pm »
So much ignorance in here.

The "5000 years of history" refers to the mythical date the demi-god Dangun (son of the bear-turned-human and the god Hwanung) "founded" Korea, and is calculated to 3 October 2333 BCE based on some relative date in the Samguk Yusa. It's basically as arbitrary as the ways we date Christmas and the year 2019 CE.

No serious historians believe in "5000 years of history," any more than they believe in similar founding myths that nationalists promoted in Turkey, Hungary, or China.

If a lot of Koreans believe in it ... well, people everywhere are susceptible to blind nationalism -- more so in the past 10 years, during which proto-authoritarian powers have resurrected its uglier aspects. This is why we have Brexit, Trump, the (recently ousted) fascists in Austria, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Abe, Orban, Putin, etc etc etc.

I'd guess no greater percentage of Koreans believe in 5000 years of history than the percentage of Americans who believe in the (utter bullshit) myth of the first Thanksgiving.

The Korean political state has existed since the Seventh Century CE, which still makes it older than nearly any other nation in the world. There were people here long before that. They left pottery and other stuff you can go see. In South Jeolla there's a Bronze Age megalith quarry you can walk up to and climb around on. The question of when language, writing, and culture formed is impossible to answer, because there's no written history of the peninsula or its people before the Chinese mentioned it in their own documents.

Anyway, read a history book.

As I said in my original post, it's my OPINION; it's my current belief based on information at hand. You're more than welcome to disagree, but calling someone
ignorant for having a different opinion to your own is simply bigoted.

I do not accept anything as historical fact until it has been verified by external sources and has written accounts of its history. I'm not denying that people didn't
live in the Korean peninsula for thousands of years and that these people are most likely the ancestors of Koreans, what I am denying is that Korea was a
civilization or an empire.

When you consider that China is still one of the most ethnically diverse nations on Earth, made up of hundreds of different ethnicities and a history of thousands
of years of conquest, it becomes very difficult to distinguish an Asian state who has their roots in China and those who do not.

Tribe > Tribal Society/Kingdom/Chiefdom > Civilization > Empire.  Every civilization I can think of has successfully to expanded its borders. Korea was never a civilization
it was a Kingdom, like the Zulus. Unlike the Zulu Kingdom, Korea never expanded its borders. Why? Well, I don't think they could or wanted. They were either in a state of
vassalage to the Middle Kingdom (China), were ruled by China or Japan, or the Korean royals and Yabgban were happy to limit military force for simply staying in power by
suppressing rebellions. Sorry, but being complacent and/or being China's bottom bitch isn't enough to warrant calling yourself a civilization, in my book.

My opinion - Korea has existed as a Kingdom for at least 1000yrs, but since they never expanded their borders (for whatever reasons), I'm not willing to acknowledge
a fraction of the grandeur that Korea asks me to believe about its past. Korea has existed for 74 yrs, no more, no less.
No verifiable written history, no civilization status. Sorry, not sorry.

Well...sorry that I hurt your feelings? But opinions that ignore facts are indeed ignorant. Bigotry is a weird accusation in this case, but I'm okay with you thinking that about me.

I do have to imagine that the Westerners who have been in contact with a continuously extant place and culture for centuries might be surprised to learn that it has only existed for 74 years.

Your conflation of "history" with "civilization" is bizarre, and I don't see anyone in here claiming that Korea is an ancient "civilization." But cultures don't have to be the source of unique, original civilizations in order to produce history, luckily for historians.

edit: Okay, well the guy above me seems to be making a case for Korea as an ancient civilization, but I'm not, and no Korean has ever tried to make that case to me. I've heard "5000 years of history" bandied around by flexing nationalists, but the educated Koreans I know are candid about their awareness that it's a national myth, and about Chinese influence in their culture, and Mongolian influence in their genetics.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 03:06:50 pm by carolina2korea »


  • zola
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #145 on: November 25, 2019, 03:02:26 pm »
I do not accept anything as historical fact until it has been verified by external sources and has written accounts of its history

Like most East Asian cultures there is extensive records of Korea (or proto Korea) in Chinese writing from around 1000BC or a bit later, onwards.

Quote
I'm not denying that people didn't live in the Korean peninsula for thousands of years and that these people are most likely the ancestors of Koreans, what I am denying is that Korea was a civilization or an empire.
Empire and civilization are not synonymous. I don't know why you would think they are.

Quote
When you consider that China is still one of the most ethnically diverse nations on Earth, made up of hundreds of different ethnicities and a history of thousands of years of conquest, it becomes very difficult to distinguish an Asian state who has their roots in China and those who do not.

You'd be popular with Chinese ultra nationalists, because this is basically their line. Japan, Korea, Vietnam are referred to  as being in the Sinosphere historically, as all their cultures have influence from China. That doesn't mean they aren't independent civilizations in their own right. That would be like saying British civilization doesn't exist as a large basis of British culture has latin/norman/viking/Saxon/Celtic roots.

Quote
Tribe > Tribal Society/Kingdom/Chiefdom > Civilization > Empire.  Every civilization I can think of has successfully to expanded its borders. Korea was never a civilization
it was a Kingdom, like the Zulus. Unlike the Zulu Kingdom, Korea never expanded its borders. Why? Well, I don't think they could or wanted.
Again, who says that expansionist empire is prerequisite to be classed as a civilization? That's absurd. But if we leave that aside for a moment, proto Korean states did expand the borders. Goguryeo stretched into Manchuria and the Russian Far east. Silla and Baekjae both had territory that waxed and waned over time. That's without getting into Gojoseon, which going by some archaeological evidence covered the Liaoning peninsula in China.


Quote
They were either in a state of vassalage to the Middle Kingdom (China), were ruled by China or Japan, or the Korean royals and Yabgban were happy to limit military force for simply staying in power by suppressing rebellions. Sorry, but being complacent and/or being China's bottom bitch isn't enough to warrant calling yourself a civilization, in my book.
A lot of this is coming down to your, frankly, incorrect definition of civilization. You'll struggle to find a uniform definition of  the term, but most would include things about an organized power structure with laws, the production of art, steady food supply, identifiable culture, religion etc.



Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • zola
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #146 on: November 25, 2019, 03:04:51 pm »
Usually a civilization has a distinct language, artistic styles, an independently recognized government that has territory, and some kind of history.

Korea has all of those going back to at least when it was first recognized in Chinese historical documents.

When I can think of countries that don't have those, you'd have to consider artificial political states. For example, Belgium. Or countries that are simply one political division of a common civilization. For example, Saudi Arabia vs. the UAE. Heck, even independence is not necessary to actually have a civilization. I'd consider the Basque people to be a civilization.

This.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #147 on: November 25, 2019, 04:39:58 pm »
edit: Okay, well the guy above me seems to be making a case for Korea as an ancient civilization, but I'm not, and no Korean has ever tried to make that case to me. I've heard "5000 years of history" bandied around by flexing nationalists, but the educated Koreans I know are candid about their awareness that it's a national myth, and about Chinese influence in their culture, and Mongolian influence in their genetics.
I'm not going along with the 5000 years or "ancient civilization" argument (depending on your definition of ancient). Just that you can probably make a claim that goes back to some date that centers around what is thought to be the beginning of the Korean language, state, lineage of a people, etc. There can be different standards and all, but I can't see anyone accepting "74 years ago" in any kind of serious scholarly sense.


  • leaponover
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #148 on: November 25, 2019, 05:15:55 pm »
I used to be annoyed with these things until I realized that:

1.  There's no nationalism, they study what's on the test.
2. There's no time for Western culture because it's not on the test
3. Kids don't ignore other nations or historical events that affected the world, it's not on the test.

When in doubt, if somebody doesn't know something it's because it's not on the test.


  • Datasapien
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2019, 08:36:09 am »
When in doubt, if somebody doesn't know something it's because it's not on the test.

Or because it was on last week's test, so they don't need to remember it anymore  :laugh:
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jebediah Springfield.


Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #150 on: November 26, 2019, 03:22:51 pm »
Usually a civilization has a distinct language, artistic styles, an independently recognized government that has territory, and some kind of history.

Korea has all of those going back to at least when it was first recognized in Chinese historical documents.

When I can think of countries that don't have those, you'd have to consider artificial political states. For example, Belgium. Or countries that are simply one political division of a common civilization. For example, Saudi Arabia vs. the UAE. Heck, even independence is not necessary to actually have a civilization. I'd consider the Basque people to be a civilization.

This.

Did... did waygook.org users Mr.DeMartino and zola just agree on something?



  • pkjh
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #151 on: November 26, 2019, 06:36:01 pm »
Using the word vassal to describe Asia's, or rather China's tribute system is quite ignorant. Being a vassal implies a more exploitative relationship where tribute essentially only goes one way. However China's tribute system allowed great benefits to the nations giving the tribute. In a span of say 100 years you may give tribute once every few years.  This tribute basically acknowledge China's role as the 'middle kingdom', the big boy on the block. And in return you got unfettered domestic autonomy, military protection from the Chinese (China almost bankrupted themselves during the Hideyoshi invasion), lots of 'gifts' in return, and access to China's massive market. Kind of like the modern equivalent of running a trade deficit.

Also, the Chinese have known of states/kingdoms (proto-Koreans), and it's written, on the Korean peninsula since at least 1000 BC. Although technically the Republic of Korea is only 70 years old, but as some pseudo-ethnic Korean group is about 1300 years old. There are Korean historians that say for most of that 1300 years (from 700-ish to now) Korea has had at least about a quarter of its population comprising of ethnic minorities. There were still Jurchen (pre-Manchurians) villages in North Korea until the 1960's. If you watch Hotel Del Luna, the old lady asks IU if she's from like 3 different ethnic groups.


  • JVPrice
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #152 on: November 27, 2019, 07:57:36 pm »
Do you know about Gyeongbokgung? Korea has 4 seasons.  Do you know about Ulleungdo?  Etc.  At the end of the semester most Korean teachers ask the students to have a "writing test" about the wonders of Korea.

For me, that is quite strange, in the sense that most of them write the same project every year about landmarks/culture of Korea in English.   

There really isn't a back and forth of cultural exchange at all being taught.  They aren't curious about other cultures.  Just "let's get this info out about Korea".  There aren't any questions asked about another's culture, its a completely one-sided dialogue.


Funny enough, that seems to be the one thing most students retain by the time they're finished with grade school
The World Ends With You


  • zola
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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #153 on: November 28, 2019, 10:15:19 am »
Kpip! - Martin 2018


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Re: Pride of Korea: I'm sick of it
« Reply #154 on: November 28, 2019, 04:22:05 pm »