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  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2019, 03:28:48 pm »
Quote
I was thinking more of corporal punishment. I assumed that in his last sentence, C stood for corporal rather than capital (because quite a few Northern states still hold to capital punishment, while far fewer allow the other kind of CP).

Yes I was talking about Corporal punishment in the last section.  My main point was that it's not really accurate just to say one or the other has been debunked and move on.  Unless you're talking about things like the world being flat, it's never that simple. There are the same kind of people claiming corporal punishment has been debunked through studies who also claim there's no evidence that children fare better with both a mother and father.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1152

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2019, 09:54:46 pm »
Hey, Cy, how about posting a link to that study again?   

You can commission studies to say whatever you want them to say.

The organizations funding such studies all belong to the humanist associations of the globalists, who have been working to subvert traditional Christian-based society for many decades. All their NGO's and infiltration of governments, with one goal to attack and demolish religion and such Christian concepts as discipline, the authority of parents, teachers. And so on.

You don't realize that you've been saturated with humanist programming in the media all of your life. They have taken over the media and everywhere else and are busy spreading their ideas to the world via their NGO's and intergovernmental bodies.

You seem to think its all about logic or science. Its not. there is a conspiracy in the world to implant nations with the same humanist ideologies globally to prepare the way for their global humanist government. Part of this is upending society and dismantling traditional structures, beliefs, identities and borders.

The goals of the secular humanism have long been clear, as outlined in their manifestos:

Quote
"The time has come for widespread recognition of the radical changes in religious beliefs throughout the modern world. The time is past for mere revision of traditional attitudes. Science and economic change have disrupted the old beliefs. Religions the world over are under the necessity of coming to terms with new conditions created by a vastly increased knowledge and experience. In every field of human activity, the vital movement is now in the direction of a candid and explicit humanism...

https://web.archive.org/web/20111107221355/http://www.americanhumanist.org/who_we_are/about_humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanist_Manifesto


Of course, one of the big movers in changing the American education system over to the humanist way was John Dewey ( a signatory in the manifestos above). As humanists have permeated every corner of big government, they have spent the last few decades destroying traditional America then wielding American power to destroy traditional societies around the world. They are preparing the world for global government under their control.
Catch my drift?


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2019, 11:16:11 pm »
Quote
I was thinking more of corporal punishment. I assumed that in his last sentence, C stood for corporal rather than capital (because quite a few Northern states still hold to capital punishment, while far fewer allow the other kind of CP).

Yes I was talking about Corporal punishment in the last section.  My main point was that it's not really accurate just to say one or the other has been debunked and move on.  Unless you're talking about things like the world being flat, it's never that simple. There are the same kind of people claiming corporal punishment has been debunked through studies who also claim there's no evidence that children fare better with both a mother and father.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that the benefits of CP in schools have been debunked, just that Cy's "evidence" has. 

As a dedicated teacher, I am interested in learning about and exploring techniques and methods that will help me be a better teacher.  There happen to be serious researchers and academicians (I hope folks in the education biz are not so jaded as to eschew those as bad words like so much of the populace) who are dedicated to doing the very best they can to find out what really works and doesn't work to improve student learning outcomes.

My (slightly sarcastic) reference to Cy's research study that he promulgated as "supporting" the use of C(orporal) P(unishment)  illustrated the difficulty of identifying "best practices" in a world of rapid social and technological change.  I can't be bothered to go back through the waygook.org threads to find it (though surely Cy would if he felt it supported his position), but the one and only study he could seemingly find to back up the pro-CP position totally did not.  If there is such evidence, I am willing to change my pedagogy.

It is my experience that "pro-CP" people do not use research to back up this notion, but rather a kind of wistful "back in the day, kids were better" argument, without putting forth research showing that even that was true.  There are so many variables involved, even the best research can only suggest best practices in some areas.  For one thing, "back in the day" the majority of students did not complete high school--yes, most students (in 1950s US) dropped out at fourteen or sixteen or whatever the earliest age was for dropping out in their state.  I can just as easily posit they got a substandard education because they were sick and tired of being beaten by the teachers/abusers Cy wants us to emulate.

Back in the Middle Ages, children were thought of and treated as miniature adults.  Human psychological, social and mental development from child to adult was not recognized. Today, we know better.  Even at the age of 12 or later, many children have "magical thinking", don't understand the finality of death, etc (just to make it clear how different they are from us fully formed adults).  16 year-olds have difficulty ascribing the emotions on a face that adults can identify easily. 

Our job is to help them grow, by providing an atmosphere where that growth and learning can take place.  We set standards, rules and boundaries, we provide support and encouragement, and we also deal out consequences for failing to live up to our (well-defined) expectations.  Part of my personal pedagogy is that teacher expectations yield student achievement.  I really have only one class rule anymore: Do Your Best.  I make it clear if I want general answers or raised hands, silent, individual work or pair collaboration, etc, i.e., set boundaries and define expectations. It doesn't always work perfectly, BTW.

I started teaching in 1986, and I used to have my students make a list of a few rules they thought were good for creating a learning environment, then I would choose 6 or 8 of them (always ended up being the same) and post them as "our" rules. This is a good way to go, giving students ownership of what is their classroom as well as yours.  But I don't even do that any more. Just "Do your best."  A quick run-through of what it entails: Teacher is talking, you don't talk, Bring your materials for learning, etc. The youngest I ever teach now are third graders, and they know the deal.

When I came to Korea in 2008, I was surprised by some of the rules my high schoolers suggested, this one most of all: "Teacher should not hit students in anger."  Not not hit students, but just not hit them while angry!

I taught at a boys school, and had a lovely, mild-mannered main co-teacher.  I soon gave up on pair conversation practice and all the other stuff I got off the internet and started to make task-based activities--speaking English was the only way to get to the answer or solve the problem.  I had a choose-your-own style murder mystery one week, with a tape outline of a body outside the classroom, and the room itself turned into a criminal investigation.  Anyway ... I caught one kid behind my desk finding out the solution to the crime, and brought this co-T to sort him out.  He just hit the kid really hard in the neck! And looked at me like, "There ya go!"

Which brings me to the point of this thread, a word I mentioned earlier: consequences.  When CP was outlawed (quite rightly according to all the research I know of on the subject--though I'm happy to read more), no other set of consequences was put in place. 

Well, I'm glad there's no more karate chops to the neck, but ... you can't depend on elementary school administrators to correct the students--they see their job (or most of mine have) as treating the teachers as children.  I try to find consequences that fit the crime: scribbled on a desk, stay after and clean the desks; misbehavior cost class time, stay after class and do some busy work for me; shouting out, take away points from the team; etc.

And that's well and good for the kind of misbehavior I've generally experienced.  But for more serious malfeasance--stealing, violence, bullying--there does not seem to be a ready solution.  Part of this is cultural--losing face, for example.  Or holding a student back a year--being separated from your age cohort is just not feasible in Korea, and those who argue for this will never win. And then we suggest detention--sorry, that's just free hakwon.  Students willingly leave at 2:30 and then come back at 3:30 to spend an hour learning Chinese or knitting ...

Still, I am reminded of the day I walked into the high school with my lovely co-T and saw a half-dozen kids holding No Smoking signs lined up at the gate chanting something (anti-smoking slogans as it turns out) while the rank and file filed and ranked.  "This is the anti-smoking club?" I asked.  "No," he said, "They were caught smoking in the boy's room." I thought it was a drag.

Losing face serves a function in this culture.  If it's okay for teen smokers, maybe it's okay for elementary school bullies and thieves. Anyway, someone should do the research.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2019, 01:00:43 am »
Hey, Cy, how about posting a link to that study again?   

You can commission studies to say whatever you want them to say.

It's a study YOU LINKED TO, as if it proved your pro-CP stance.
Quote

The organizations funding such studies all belong to the humanist associations of the globalists, who have been working to subvert traditional Christian-based society for many decades. All their NGO's and infiltration of governments, with one goal to attack and demolish religion and such Christian concepts as discipline, the authority of parents, teachers. And so on.

You don't realize that you've been saturated with humanist programming in the media all of your life. They have taken over the media and everywhere else and are busy spreading their ideas to the world via their NGO's and intergovernmental bodies.

Trust me on this: Anything you have "realized", I realized twenty years before you. 
Quote

You seem to think its all about logic or science. Its not. there is a conspiracy in the world to implant nations with the same humanist ideologies globally to prepare the way for their global humanist government. Part of this is upending society and dismantling traditional structures, beliefs, identities and borders.

The goals of the secular humanism have long been clear, as outlined in their manifestos:

Quote
"The time has come for widespread recognition of the radical changes in religious beliefs throughout the modern world. The time is past for mere revision of traditional attitudes. Science and economic change have disrupted the old beliefs. Religions the world over are under the necessity of coming to terms with new conditions created by a vastly increased knowledge and experience. In every field of human activity, the vital movement is now in the direction of a candid and explicit humanism...

https://web.archive.org/web/20111107221355/http://www.americanhumanist.org/who_we_are/about_humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanist_Manifesto


Of course, one of the big movers in changing the American education system over to the humanist way was John Dewey ( a signatory in the manifestos above). As humanists have permeated every corner of big government, they have spent the last few decades destroying traditional America then wielding American power to destroy traditional societies around the world. They are preparing the world for global government under their control.


Yep, that's me.  I want global government under the control of humanists and big government.  Guilty as charged.  Or maybe not

It's possible that I want simply to be the best, most effective teacher I can be.  I think most folks who have been around the waygook.org community will concede I work hard to be a good teacher.

As an intelligent person, I want to base my pedagogy on the best information available, which on the whole is not provided by conspiracist buzzword websites that blather on about "global humanist government" and "dismantling traditional structures".  And hatred of science and logic. You have the "conspiracy" backwards, I think. I'm not trying to be hurtful, but your thinking is not useful in dealing with actual people.

Now, a fact: YOU are in fact the poster who provided the link here: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking  You thought this study proved your pro-C(orporal) P(unishment) view, right? (Never mind it was family-based CP, not classroom )

You looked at it for three minutes and read that "The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child."

With an apparently miniscule attention span, you failed to note the whole graf: "Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child."

I think it's peculiar that a person who argues in favor of "such Christian concepts as discipline, the authority of parents, teachers. And so on." thinks a positive outcome you are arguing FOR includes "Increased child aggression and antisocial behavior".

Sorry, Cy, you continue to be an intellectual mess, with no real idea what you arguing, or how to argue it.  If studies can be commissioned to say whatever you want them to, why can't you find one that actually backs your pro-CP stance? (Actually, you probably could, but )  What exactly do you think secular humanism is, and why does it want to do away with corporal punishment?  If you favor the classicists, what do you do with Plato's admonishment that "Nothing taught by force stays in the soul"? Can you provide a cite for the funding of education research being provided by "humanist associations of the globalists"?  And a list of those associations?  How much funding for "anti-CP" research is provided by the "Humanist Globalist Association"? How much cash does the "Global Humanist Foundation" give to show beating children doesn't provide an atmosphere where learning can best occur? What percentage of its funding did the Humanist Globalist Society provide to subvert the scads of research clearly demonstrating that physical abuse of children encourages learning and makes a better society?

I'll wait.

What is your definition of "humanism", BTW?  I have always understood it to mean that we humans have to use our capacities and abilities (whether God-given or not) to create a better society and a better world.  In my practical world, I take it to mean that I should take responsibilty for myself and my actions. In my teaching life, it means I run my classroom using ideas I and others with more knowledge than me find to be effective, so-called "best practices".

I don't want to caricature you, but your rejection of "humanism" seems to be replaced by "such Christian concepts as discipline ... And so on."  Jesus tells you to hit children?  Does He?  I don't think He does.

I have tried really hard here to try to get you to think in a new way about how to discipline your students without wanting to strike them.  I know we all have a momentary flash sometimes of wanting to smack some mouthy little runt, but I'm worried that the reason you don't do it is because you aren't allowed, NOT because it's wrong!  But it is wrong!  If you can't get past that feeling--and I say this to anyone here that has this feeling--you must absolutely get out of teaching and find a new job.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1152

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2019, 01:11:02 am »
As a dedicated teacher, I am interested in learning about and exploring techniques and methods that will help me be a better teacher. 

So do we all, Mr C. I too am a qualified and dedicated teacher who always wants to improve and wants the next generation to be skilled, respectful, well-rounded members of society that can reach their potential.

The problem comes when you try and shut down debate by demonizing people who think differently. It indicates a weakness in your argument.

If your argument was strong enough you would not need to spout all the hatred and trolling that you do.

Quote
Our job is to help them grow, by providing an atmosphere where that growth and learning can take place.

So then why do you advocate a system in which bullies get to rule the roost without hindrance?

You are creating a chaotic unsafe environment that children have to survive, not a safe environment where they can thrive. This is obvious.


Here is why CP is so badly needed in our classrooms:

1. Bad behaviour is on the increase.

2. There has been an increase in crime.

3. There is a lack of father figures in the home.

4. Other sanctions have no effect.

5. The rights culture needs to be impeded.

6. It will improve the lives of those who are bullied.

7. Swift punishment prevents bad behaviour later.

8. It works.

9. The administration of corporal punishment creates responsible citizens.

10. It makes a direct link between bad behaviour and its consequences.

Catch my drift?


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2019, 09:28:04 am »
As a dedicated teacher, I am interested in learning about and exploring techniques and methods that will help me be a better teacher. 

So do we all, Mr C. I too am a qualified and dedicated teacher who always wants to improve and wants the next generation to be skilled, respectful, well-rounded members of society that can reach their potential.

The problem comes when you try and shut down debate by demonizing people who think differently. It indicates a weakness in your argument.

If your argument was strong enough you would not need to spout all the hatred and trolling that you do.

Quote
Our job is to help them grow, by providing an atmosphere where that growth and learning can take place.

So then why do you advocate a system in which bullies get to rule the roost without hindrance?

You are creating a chaotic unsafe environment that children have to survive, not a safe environment where they can thrive. This is obvious.


Here is why CP is so badly needed in our classrooms:

1. Bad behaviour is on the increase.

2. There has been an increase in crime.

3. There is a lack of father figures in the home.

4. Other sanctions have no effect.

5. The rights culture needs to be impeded.

6. It will improve the lives of those who are bullied.

7. Swift punishment prevents bad behaviour later.

8. It works.

9. The administration of corporal punishment creates responsible citizens.

10. It makes a direct link between bad behaviour and its consequences.


You don't have any evidence for any of those assertions, they are opinion and supposition. The rights culture needs to be impeded? 

At least I operate within a fact-based pedagogy. Go back and re-read the study you yourself provided on the subject of CP. Again let me point out the irony of trying to create a safe environment for children on the threat of doing them physical harm.

PS: Show me where I spouted "hatred and trolling". 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 09:32:27 am by Mr C »


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2019, 09:51:03 am »
"Doing them physical harm" is emotive language, suggesting teachers are threatening to injure them in some way.  In order to have a sensible discussion you have to omit all terms like this as well as 'abuse', 'violence' and so on.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 10:23:29 am by stoat »


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2019, 10:57:01 am »
"Doing them physical harm" is emotive language, suggesting teachers are threatening to injure them in some way.  In order to have a sensible discussion you have to omit all terms like this as well as 'abuse', 'violence' and so on.
Nope.  If you want it to be "punishment", it has to hurt, right?  Physically.

And the very study Cyanea held up points out that CP does long term emotional damage to its recipients. 

There are better ways.  Period.


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2019, 11:02:34 am »
Ok so forcing them to do detention is an abuse of their rights to freedom, does them mental harm and causes emtional damage. You could play this game with any form of punishment


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1152

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2019, 01:19:11 pm »
The rights culture needs to be impeded? 

How about responsibilities to others... as opposed to rights you demand from others.  Too big a mental hurdle for you to make?

Quote
Go back and re-read the study you yourself provided on the subject of CP.

i have no idea what you're talking about..

Quote
let me point out the irony of trying to create a safe environment for children on the threat of doing them physical harm.

Strawman much? Once again.. the aim of cp is not to "cause physical harm". The cane, and the ruler to the hand- which is the system I advocate- causes zero physical harm.

Making an example of a couple of offenders at the start of the school year usually causes everyone to fall into line and ensures a settled orderly academic year.

As opposed to the never-ending chaos and violence of the schools that follow your particular brand of madness.

Quote
PS: Show me where I spouted "hatred and trolling". 

Lol you make a rattlesnake sound charming.

Your bitterness  is likely down to a lack of parental discipline in your youth.
Catch my drift?


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2019, 01:21:50 pm »
Ok so forcing them to do detention is an abuse of their rights to freedom, does them mental harm and causes emtional damage. You could play this game with any form of punishment
If you have a link to research demonstrating that detention causes lasting emotional harm, I'm all ears.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2019, 01:24:33 pm »
The rights culture needs to be impeded? 

Quote
PS: Show me where I spouted "hatred and trolling". 

Lol you make a rattlesnake sound charming.

Your bitterness  is likely down to a lack of parental discipline in your youth.

So, you can't point to anything specific, huh?  I just don't agree with you, is that all?


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2019, 02:08:44 pm »
Ok so forcing them to do detention is an abuse of their rights to freedom, does them mental harm and causes emtional damage. You could play this game with any form of punishment
If you have a link to research demonstrating that detention causes lasting emotional harm, I'm all ears.

I'm sure if someone wanted to abolish detention they could carry out some research that 'proved' it did tomorrow.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1738

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2019, 02:51:11 pm »
Ok so forcing them to do detention is an abuse of their rights to freedom, does them mental harm and causes emtional damage. You could play this game with any form of punishment
If you have a link to research demonstrating that detention causes lasting emotional harm, I'm all ears.

I'm sure if someone wanted to abolish detention they could carry out some research that 'proved' it did tomorrow.
I think you meant to say 'research'.  Whereas I asked for research.  And I'm guessing you don't have any, so let's stick to research-based best practices in our 'teaching', eh?


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2019, 03:28:53 pm »
Quote
    so let's stick to research-based best practices in our 'teaching   

Fine and let's stick to unemotive language when discussing them. Which was my only point.


  • Cohort 2019
  • Veteran

    • 163

    • August 17, 2019, 08:09:23 pm
    • 90S.- 0'E
    more
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2019, 03:44:43 pm »
Jeez...

...wtf is wrong with you, you still think institutionalised cp. is a feasible option after reading my post and video?

Quote
... Korean teacher who loved copping a feel first before beating his students. Opp-turyo is weird enough for a boy, imagine the scene at a girls' school.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 03:54:36 pm by Cohort 2019 »
incumbo studiis


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2019, 05:45:57 pm »
Quote
Jeez...

...wtf is wrong with you, you still think institutionalised cp. is a feasible option after reading my post and video?

Are you talking to me? I'm not in favour of institutionalised CP.  And why would there have to be something wrong with me if I was? I don't think many proponents of CP would be in favour of the kind of CP in that video by the way. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 05:53:42 pm by stoat »


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1152

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2019, 07:40:02 pm »
you still think institutionalised cp. is a feasible option after reading my post and video?

You still think institutionalised car driving is a feasible option after reading my post and video?

Quote
Man dies after car crash 
Nov 110 2019
https://fox40.com/2019/11/10/ceres-police-man-dies-after-car-crash/

Deadly Car Crashes Caught on Tape Compilation 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1cY8kNp4_0


Catch my drift?


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5392

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2019, 08:08:29 pm »
You still think institutionalised car driving is a feasible option after reading my post and video?

    I *do* actually think that driving around 1.5 tonnes of steel at velocities that humans are not evolved to effectively handle could use a bit more regulation.
   The fact that 1.25 million people die every year in automobile related accidents would definitely support my opinion.
   So.... more training! More continuing driving education! More stringent rules and penalties regarding mental health, substance abuse, and prior driving history! And most importantly, more alternatives to driving. Roads cover about .2% of all of Earth's landmass: that's utterly ridiculous and totally unnecessary in this day and age.


Re: Elementary schools need discipline systems
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2019, 02:36:44 pm »
The problem with CP studies and claims is that while the research is solid that CP as a whole tends to lead to negative outcomes in a population of students, that doesn't mean it is NEVER effective in specific situations, nor that it is ineffective for ALL students.

Unfortunately, it would require a lot more research to the point where it would be hard to successfully identify what might lead to positive outcomes in CP and which individuals it might work with. As a matter of policy, given incomplete information and an inability to predict the future, not having CP, or at least only using it as a measure of extreme last resort, is understandable.

If CP were administered by robots in response to specific offenses that were applied evenly and equally, that would be one thing, but once you get human enforcement...

Still I don't think CP should be wholly disregarded. The fact is that some people only respond to brute force and the ability of someone to impose their will physically. There are kids out there that DO NOT GIVE A F and all your usual strategies and methods don't work. And if you get a cluster of them, look out.

I do think some on the anti-CP side don't really understand how hardcore some teenagers can be. They think they've seen bad classrooms or bad kids, but I have to question that. When the outcomes are A) They get to fight a teacher and win the lawsuit because of whatever claim they make B) Get kicked out of class (oh the horror of not being in school) C) Get arrested by the school cop and having their video go viral and them getting a settlement or whatever, they're kind of in a no-lose situation and they know it. Like seriously, maybe with kids who want to do well in school and don't have to maintain a persona of toughness, the usual stuff works, but there's a whole different level out there and before you bash CP, you have to deal with that and go through it.

I had this argument, I believe it was with Mr. C, but it might have been a different poster. I posited this scenario- I'm a student playing with my phone in class. What do you do? Basically whatever they suggested fell apart the second the student refuses to physically comply with anything they said. Like, it never occurs to them that after they say "Hand over the cell phone" that instead of the student saying "Okay, teacher" the student might instead respond "Make me, bitch" and the fact is you can't really make them. Not without a 50-50 chance of a lawsuit or you handing things off to the school cop and wiping your hands clean like Pilate.