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  • LIC
  • Super Waygook

    • 468

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Lest We Forget
« on: November 11, 2019, 09:14:09 am »
In Flanders Fields

 

BY JOHN MCCRAE

 

 In Flanders fields the poppies blow

Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,

In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

 

 "In Flanders Fields" appeared anonymously in Punch on December 8, 1915, but in the index to that year McCrae was named as the author. The verses swiftly became one of the most popular poems of the war, used in countless fund-raising campaigns and frequently translated "In Flanders Fields" was also extensively printed in the United States, whose government was contemplating joining the war.

McCrae's grave at Wimereux cemetery

On January 28, 1918, while still commanding No.3 Canadian General Hospital (McGill) at Boulogne, McCrae died of pneumonia with "extensive pneumococcus meningitis at the British General Hospital in Wimereux France.

He was buried the following day in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission section of the Cemetery, just a couple of kilometres up the coast from Boulogne, with full military honours. His flag-draped coffin was borne on a gun carriage and the mourners who included Sir Arthur Currie and many of McCrae's friends and staff.

They were preceded by McCrae's charger, "Bonfire", with McCrae's boots reversed in the stirrups. Bonfire was with McCrae from Valcartier until his death and was much loved. McCrae's gravestone is placed flat, as are all the others in the section, because of the unstable sandy soil.


  • LIC
  • Super Waygook

    • 468

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2019, 01:28:48 pm »
I gather everyone forgot. Well, that's why all those people fought and many died, so you all would have the right to not care.


Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2019, 01:36:37 pm »
"In Flanders Fields"

Was this an episode of The Simpsons that I missed?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 01:49:22 pm by eoin_mclove »


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2019, 01:48:29 pm »
There was an episode of the UK apprentice recently when they were in Oxford and had to buy some items and one of them was a pre-WW2 edition of Alice In Wonderland. And you've guessed it, no one in the team of six knew what date the Second World War started.


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5386

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2019, 02:58:27 pm »
I gather everyone forgot. Well, that's why all those people fought and many died, so you all would have the right to not care.

Of course we didn't forget .
It's just that we were uncertain what you expected us to comment with that post.  :undecided:

It's unfortunate that Korea has hijacked Remembrance day with Peppero day.  :sad:


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 2607

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2019, 03:03:48 pm »
There was an episode of the UK apprentice recently when they were in Oxford and had to buy some items and one of them was a pre-WW2 edition of Alice In Wonderland. And you've guessed it, no one in the team of six knew what date the Second World War started.
To be fair, they purposely the biggest mongs to be contestants in the apprentice


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2019, 04:08:49 pm »
There was an episode of the UK apprentice recently when they were in Oxford and had to buy some items and one of them was a pre-WW2 edition of Alice In Wonderland. And you've guessed it, no one in the team of six knew what date the Second World War started.
To be fair, they purposely the biggest mongs to be contestants in the apprentice

Yes people say that but all the contestants have either been to university or have set up and run successful businesses.  They're not Jeremy Kyle or Benefits Street fodder.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 2607

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2019, 05:44:02 pm »
true, true

i guess there are just a lot of morons in the world


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2019, 06:40:13 pm »
true, true

i guess there are just a lot of morons in the world

I blame the education system. 73 grand spent on every kid in the UK and even the smart ones aren't taught a simple fact like that.


  • fka
  • Veteran

    • 148

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 07:47:11 am »
I normally make fairly generous hyperbole allowances for online communication, but surely you don't literally think that British children aren't taught about when the Second World War started? Thousands of teachers with degrees in history and, presumably. some passion for the subject, collectively decided to stop teaching it sometime in the last 30 years, even though it's explicitly mentioned in the National Curriculum guidelines and is a topic in both A-level and O-level history exams?

I'm not making excuses for the Apprentice contestants (who, as per usual, look like idiots through most of the series) but saying something like "students aren't taught a simple fact like that", or extrapolating a game show clip to make a statement about the education system as a whole, isn't exactly the most impressive display of critical reasoning, either.

By the same token, we could use Mastermind or University Challenge to prove that Britain's education system is world-class.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 08:20:17 am by fka »


Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2019, 08:41:56 am »
Yeah, the majority of people are taught these facts in school, lol.

They just don't retain most of it. People forget shit that they don't consider important or that they didn't/don't have to recall or use on a regular basis. This is why you can remember the details of a person's face and what they wore on Tuesday but can't remember their ****** name. Memory is funny like that and can be incredibly fickle.

Like I received high grades for all of my math courses back in high school, including my advanced calculus classes.

Still didn't stop me from forgetting almost everything I learned, lol. I really need to get myself a couple of books and brush up on all of that. It's kind of sad, really.


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2019, 08:44:00 am »
I normally make fairly generous hyperbole allowances for online communication, but surely you don't literally think that British children aren't taught about when the Second World War started? Thousands of teachers with degrees in history and, presumably. some passion for the subject, collectively decided to stop teaching it sometime in the last 30 years, even though it's explicitly mentioned in the National Curriculum guidelines and is a topic in both A-level and O-level history exams?

I'm not making excuses for the Apprentice contestants (who, as per usual, look like idiots through most of the series) but saying something like "students aren't taught a simple fact like that", or extrapolating a game show clip to make a statement about the education system as a whole, isn't exactly the most impressive display of critical reasoning, either.

By the same token, we could use Mastermind or University Challenge to prove that Britain's education system is world-class.

Ok so there are four main ways to look at this
1 it's the young people's fault
2. It's the teachers'/ education system's fault
3. There's no need for kids to know this stuff
4. These young people are not representative of young people today, the standard of education is as good or better than it's ever been, there is no problem

4 is the standard left wing/progressive response,I guess one and two are more conservative. I agree, just basing your opinion of education on one game show would be foolish but it backs up what a lot of other people are saying about education being less about fact learning than in the past
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 09:50:52 am by stoat »


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2874

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2019, 10:01:22 am »
The people who came up through the old education systems have just as large of a, if not larger, proportion of morons as the products of modern education.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 10:30:58 am »
The people who came up through the old education systems have just as large of a, if not larger, proportion of morons as the products of modern education.

Not according to research like this

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3458830/Pupils-B-grade-level-maths-today-scored-E-50-years-ago-study-shows-exams-got-easier.html


Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2019, 10:37:19 am »
The people who came up through the old education systems have just as large of a, if not larger, proportion of morons as the products of modern education.

Not according to research like this

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3458830/Pupils-B-grade-level-maths-today-scored-E-50-years-ago-study-shows-exams-got-easier.html


Lest we forget...  no one is going to click on a Daily Mail article to prove or fact-check anything, ever, especially immigrants or education. 


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 10:46:44 am »


  • fka
  • Veteran

    • 148

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 01:36:01 pm »
I don't know enough about UK math exams to confidently comment either way, but you yourself said that anyone can pluck a study to prove their point if they are so determined. It's not unthinkable that someone could dig out a report that claims British adults over 55 have inferior or equivalent numeracy skills to 17-25 year-olds.

Anyway...

Quote
Ok so there are four main ways to look at this
1 it's the young people's fault
2. It's the teachers'/ education system's fault
3. There's no need for kids to know this stuff
4. These young people are not representative of young people today, the standard of education is as good or better than it's ever been, there is no problem

I'd actually offer fifth perspective, which I think applies to this situation:

5) Older people have a tendency to characterize their juniors as being spoiled, too soft, resistant to hard work, etc.

I don't know how old you are and I don't mean for this to sound insulting. I'm in the "older" category, too, and I catch myself doing this all the time. In fact, I often remind myself of the tendency when I start complaining about young people, which helps me put things into better perspective.

Like Chinguetti, I got good grades in math in high school and actually got a shockingly high score on the SAT math component, given my attitude toward the subject. I barely remember any of it now, though. My mom and dad were both born shortly after the war and went to similar state schools in a rural part of the US. My dad could probably recite an average number of accurate WWII facts for someone with his education level. My mother would be just as bad as the Apprentice candidates. I don't really know why. She's not stupid - just not remotely interested in history. That doesn't mean she wasn't taught it, though.

And there are plenty of people in their age group and social circle driving luxury cars and living in houses worth half a million dollars, retiring on very comfortable cash cushions, who are profoundly ignorant about many things. Like, still calling Russia the Soviet Union and thinking that Spain is somewhere near Mexico.





  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2019, 02:02:55 pm »
Quote
I don't know enough about UK math exams to confidently comment either way, but you yourself said that anyone can pluck a study to prove their point if they are so determined. It's not unthinkable that someone could dig out a report that claims British adults over 55 have inferior or equivalent numeracy skills to 17-25 year-olds.

I said that about social studies research, I think it was about corporal punishment.  It's obviously a lot tougher to accurately measure the negative effects of one experience out of  many, than it is to judge whether one maths text is more difficult than another.

Quote
) Older people have a tendency to characterize their juniors as being spoiled, too soft, resistant to hard work, etc.

This is true and if someone said something like 'young people are less well-mannered nowadays than in the past' I'd probably treat it with skepticism. However if someone said young people commit more crime nowadays I'd ask what the stats showed because it'd be easier to prove .  I'd also listen to what people like this guy said from the comments section because he's talking about facts, not feelings

"I am 65 and spent part of my earlier life teaching from 11-year olds up to A-level as well as some of my later life as a supply teacher. I have all my own old mathematics papers (school entrance and scholarship papers, O-Level papers, A-level papers, university papers) as well as many I used for teaching. Nobody can ever convince me that the syllabuses and examinations were not much harder way back when.

I'd say it was people like you, Zola and the Omlettes guy who seem to be sticking their fingers in their ears and not entertaining ideas to a greater extent than myself.


  • fka
  • Veteran

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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2019, 02:20:33 pm »
I'm not even arguing that math tests aren't easier than they were a generation ago. They very possibly are. You said that "students aren't taught" basic facts about World War II. I pointed out that this is extremely unlikely, and you shifted the subject to whether math tests were harder 50 years ago.


  • stoat
  • Super Waygook

    • 423

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Lest We Forget
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2019, 02:28:46 pm »
The comment about maths tests was a reaction to what Zola said about just as many, if not more people being morons in the past. As for the comment about history it's based on my understanding that modern methods of teaching history rely less on fact learning compared to the past, which is what I've heard from various sources, not a feeling based on my age. We can have a discussion about whether you agree with that or not if you like.