Read 4068 times

  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5545

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
  Japan has made general apologies, but when it comes to actually making reparations to those families and acknowledging those actual atrocities, Japan doesn't really follow through with the promises.
Back in '65 Japan paid over 2 billion USD (current value) to the South Korean goverment in reparation for the comfort women they took during the war. True, those women never saw a dime of it (unless... does Posco mint 100 won coins?), but that wasn't exactly Japan's fault.

 
Instead they balk on them and then do something passive aggressive to battle it like putting Japanese flags on Dokdo
      I haven't read about  Japan putting its flag on Dokdo... but I have heard of Korea putting Dokdo on its flag.

or removing Korea from safe export lists.
     ...which in turn was a response to the Korean government seizing the assets of privately owned Japanese companies operating in the country and so on.
    An eye for an eye benefits nobody. Well, except China...

If I'm a country that's currently thriving and has no need for any economic advantage, and I ravaged your land for 35 years, would I still be arguing about a tiny island that means very little in the grand scheme of things and my own scholars have already traced back to not belonging to me? 
    Cherry picking just a tiny bit, but okay...
    Also, while the Japanese were undeniably bad news to the people and the culture, they certainly didn't ravage the country: infrastructure, education, economy and the social structure all greatly benefitted from it.

It's like that apology you give someone because you think they want to hear it, but their actions say otherwise.
    I totally agree here.
    Abe could've buried the hatchet years ago if he just hadn't been such a huge wanker. It's sad when such a tiny majority (the ultra-conservatives) work so incredibly hard to essentially ruin international relationships for the entire country.
   How about just apologizing without the face-saving political double talk afterwards? >:(


    I generally am far more sympathetic to Korea's side of things than I am to Japan's (Imperial Japan was pretty messed up. Good riddance!), but I feel that presenting things from a purely one sided perspective isn't at all helpfull. History is complicated, nuanced, and nearly always a mess of greys. Painting it black and white is dishonest, and, I feel, disrespectful.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 12:20:31 pm by kyndo »


  • leaponover
  • Expert Waygook

    • 634

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
  Japan has made general apologies, but when it comes to actually making reparations to those families and acknowledging those actual atrocities, Japan doesn't really follow through with the promises.
Back in '65 Japan paid over 2 billion USD (current value) to the South Korean goverment in reparation for the comfort women they took during the war. True, those women never saw a dime of it (unless... does Posco mint 100 won coins?), but that wasn't exactly Japan's fault.

 
Instead they balk on them and then do something passive aggressive to battle it like putting Japanese flags on Dokdo
      I haven't read about  Japan putting its flag on Dokdo... but I have heard of Korea putting Dokdo on its flag.

or removing Korea from safe export lists.
     ...which in turn was a response to the Korean government seizing the assets of privately owned Japanese companies operating in the country and so on.
    An eye for an eye benefits nobody. Well, except China...

If I'm a country that's currently thriving and has no need for any economic advantage, and I ravaged your land for 35 years, would I still be arguing about a tiny island that means very little in the grand scheme of things and my own scholars have already traced back to not belonging to me? 
    Cherry picking just a tiny bit, but okay...
    Also, while the Japanese were undeniably bad news to the people and the culture, they certainly didn't ravage the country: infrastructure, education, economy and the social structure all greatly benefitted from it.

It's like that apology you give someone because you think they want to hear it, but their actions say otherwise.
    I totally agree here.
    Abe could've buried the hatchet years ago if he just hadn't been such a huge wanker. It's sad when such a tiny majority (the ultra-conservatives) work so incredibly hard to essentially ruin international relationships for the entire country.
   How about just apologizing without the face-saving political double talk afterwards? >:(


    I generally am far more sympathetic to Korea's side of things than I am to Japan's (Imperial Japan was pretty messed up. Good riddance!), but I feel that presenting things from a purely one sided perspective isn't at all helpfull. History is complicated, nuanced, and nearly always a mess of greys. Painting it black and white is dishonest, and, I feel, disrespectful.



I agree with your last paragraph as well.  History is definitely not black and white and it's my fault for painting that way in response to folks painting it that way on posts prior to mine.  I shouldn't have stooped to that level.

Where did you get that  2 billion figure from?  I only found reparations from the war treaties that were signed.  I never saw any 2 billion in there?  Maybe you are prorating it to its modern value?

I still think it's perfectly reasonable for Korean people to have national pride and hit a country financially for their indifference to warmongering.  Hell, people do it to the US.  You've got so many treehuggers crying about the environment, but nobody stops buying Chinese products, and then they want to go teach there.  They are the biggest culprits of damage to the planet, but they just get a free pass, because, well it's China yo!  People can only talk with their wallets, and to have national unity like that is inspiring.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 07:13:29 pm by leaponover »


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5545

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
I agree with your last paragraph as well.  History is definitely not black and white and it's my fault for painting that way in response to folks painting it that way on posts prior to mine.  I shouldn't have stooped to that level.

Where did you get that  2 billion figure from?  I only found reparations from the war treaties that were signed.  I never saw any 2 billion in there?  Maybe you are prorating it to its modern value?

I still think it's perfectly reasonable for Korean people to have national pride and hit a country financially for their indifference to warmongering.  Hell, people do it to the US.  You've got so many treehuggers crying about the environment, but nobody stops buying Chinese products, and then they want to go teach there.  They are the biggest culprits of damage to the planet, but they just get a free pass, because, well it's China yo!  People can only talk with their wallets, and to have national unity like that is inspiring.

Oh, yeah, I'm prorating that, which is what I was trying to point out with the "current value" bit. Sorry if it wasn't clear. The total paid was 800 million in 1965 USD.

    What I find troublesome is that the Korean government targeted private companies, and essentially seized their assets some 75 years after the end of the war. Why now and not a long time ago? You know, when the comfort women and the victims of the forced labour were still around to benefit from the seizure.
    Without having any details of the decision processes behind this action, it seems to me to have come entirely out of the blue... and that makes me suspect ulterior motives. Can't trust them politicos.


  • LIC
  • Expert Waygook

    • 677

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
After 9/11, France did not support the American military and gov't plan to bomb Iraq, calling it a grab for oil, not a genuine attack against WMDs.

U.S. right wingers spoke of changing "French fries" (a Belgian creation) to "freedom fries".

The American right wing, Republican anger toward France and all things French was PATHETIC!

Just saying...

I remember this very well. As an aside, when was the last time you heard an American say anything nice about France or French people?

How many Americans realize their great symbol of freedom and welcome, the Statue of Liberty, was a gift from France?

I'm guessing very very few. If it became common knowledge they'd probably tear that down too.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4277

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
I remember this very well. As an aside, when was the last time you heard an American say anything nice about France or French people?

How many Americans realize their great symbol of freedom and welcome, the Statue of Liberty, was a gift from France?

I'm guessing very very few. If it became common knowledge they'd probably tear that down too.

Not surprising coming from a Canadian.

When was the last time you heard a Canadian say anything nice about America or American people?

When's the last time you heard a French person say anything nice about America or American people?

Tribalism is stupid.

Bashing America is stupid.

Some kind of inferiority complex related to the USA developed in those two countries in particular- France and Canada.

Human nature is flawed. People are jealous and envious and engage in identity politics to varying degrees.

I'm well aware the statue of Liberty came from France; I think most Americans are.


  • NorthStar
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1114

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Mouseville
Quote
Not surprising coming from a Canadian


...not at all. 

Unfortunately, I"m not sure the soy boys, ,feminists and safe-space generation has  a clue about anything...much less the fact the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France...or, that France was just as much responsible for America's victory for in the Revolutionary War, as George Washington. 

But, I wonder if the young generation in France knows about their own history.  I recall in an excellent political theory class, we had a French exchange student who huffed and puffed when we covered the French Revolution...she made a subtle scene and understandably so. 

Personally, I don't hold a grudge against the French.  Well...perhaps I've been lucky but I've come across only the nicest folks from there.  Then again, I have do doubt that France carries the type of person stereotypes love to attach themselves on. 

Canadians....I always hear crap from them and out of all the foreigners I have met in Korea (and beyond), Canada has represented the highest number of pricks..thus far. 


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1868

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Quote
Not surprising coming from a Canadian


...not at all. 

Unfortunately, I"m not sure the soy boys, ,feminists and safe-space generation has  a clue about anything...much less the fact the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France...or, that France was just as much responsible for America's victory for in the Revolutionary War, as George Washington.   

Is … is this a parody account?

It's a reasonable assumption that by soy boys, feminists, etc, you are referring to those on the liberal/moderate end of the spectrum.  Whereas, the "Freedom Fries" brigade was composed of the right wing in the US.  Bob Ney was the spearhead of this movement, and was later convicted in the Abramoff scandal and spent time in the hoosegow. Um, who doesn't have a clue? (Excellent political theory class, indeed.)

I can assure you I know a considerable amount about the Revolutionary War and about Liberty Enlightening the World, including the fact that in addition to its sculptor being Frederic Bartholdi, the inner support structure was designed by Gustave Eiffel.  Joseph Pulitzer's New York World newspaper ran what we would call a crowdfunding campaign to raise money for the plinth for it to stand on.

Despite that added height, immigrants coming into NY harbor from Europe would see a 12 story elephant-shaped hotel on Coney Island, before seeing Lady Liberty--probably a source of confusion for some folks …

Before it burned down at the turn of the century, the elephant had gained a sordid reputation (along with Coney Island) and "going to see the elephant" was a slang term for visiting a prostitute. 

You've learned something today, you're welcome.


  • NorthStar
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1114

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Mouseville
Quote
Not surprising coming from a Canadian


...not at all. 

Unfortunately, I"m not sure the soy boys, ,feminists and safe-space generation has  a clue about anything...much less the fact the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France...or, that France was just as much responsible for America's victory for in the Revolutionary War, as George Washington.   

Is … is this a parody account?

It's a reasonable assumption that by soy boys, feminists, etc, you are referring to those on the liberal/moderate end of the spectrum.  Whereas, the "Freedom Fries" brigade was composed of the right wing in the US.  Bob Ney was the spearhead of this movement, and was later convicted in the Abramoff scandal and spent time in the hoosegow. Um, who doesn't have a clue? (Excellent political theory class, indeed.)

I can assure you I know a considerable amount about the Revolutionary War and about Liberty Enlightening the World, including the fact that in addition to its sculptor being Frederic Bartholdi, the inner support structure was designed by Gustave Eiffel.  Joseph Pulitzer's New York World newspaper ran what we would call a crowdfunding campaign to raise money for the plinth for it to stand on.

Despite that added height, immigrants coming into NY harbor from Europe would see a 12 story elephant-shaped hotel on Coney Island, before seeing Lady Liberty--probably a source of confusion for some folks …

Before it burned down at the turn of the century, the elephant had gained a sordid reputation (along with Coney Island) and "going to see the elephant" was a slang term for visiting a prostitute. 

You've learned something today, you're welcome.

..pat yourself on the back. then.


  • LIC
  • Expert Waygook

    • 677

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
I remember this very well. As an aside, when was the last time you heard an American say anything nice about France or French people?

How many Americans realize their great symbol of freedom and welcome, the Statue of Liberty, was a gift from France?

I'm guessing very very few. If it became common knowledge they'd probably tear that down too.

Not surprising coming from a Canadian.

When was the last time you heard a Canadian say anything nice about America or American people?

When's the last time you heard a French person say anything nice about America or American people?

Tribalism is stupid.

Bashing America is stupid.

Some kind of inferiority complex related to the USA developed in those two countries in particular- France and Canada.

Human nature is flawed. People are jealous and envious and engage in identity politics to varying degrees.

I'm well aware the statue of Liberty came from France; I think most Americans are.


Most Americans???

I'd would comfortably bet my eyesight you are absolutely wrong about this.

Here's another: How many New Englanders in general or Bostonians in particular know the 100 foot Christmas tree that's put up in Boston every year is a gift from the people of Nova Scotia to say thank you  for their incredible help and kindness in the aftermath of the Great Halifax Explosion - the largest man-made explosion ever until the yanks dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

Yeah....ya didn't know that did ya?


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2917

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
I'm not American and I know that the Statue of Liberty was a French gift. I'm pretty sure I remember it was part of the story in "An American Tail". The French pigeon.

Regardless, from reading his posts over the pat few months i think its pretty clear LIC is detached from reality.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • tylerthegloob
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1014

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Most Americans???

I'd would comfortably bet my eyesight you are absolutely wrong about this.

Here's another: How many New Englanders in general or Bostonians in particular know the 100 foot Christmas tree that's put up in Boston every year is a gift from the people of Nova Scotia to say thank you  for their incredible help and kindness in the aftermath of the Great Halifax Explosion - the largest man-made explosion ever until the yanks dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

Yeah....ya didn't know that did ya?

most of us know the tree comes from nova scotia. they mention it on the news repeatedly almost every year. we also know the statue of liberty was from france. if you're not already blind from that shitty bet, do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Most Americans???

I'd would comfortably bet my eyesight you are absolutely wrong about this.

Here's another: How many New Englanders in general or Bostonians in particular know the 100 foot Christmas tree that's put up in Boston every year is a gift from the people of Nova Scotia to say thank you  for their incredible help and kindness in the aftermath of the Great Halifax Explosion - the largest man-made explosion ever until the yanks dropped the bomb on Hiroshima.

Yeah....ya didn't know that did ya?

most of us know the tree comes from nova scotia. they mention it on the news repeatedly almost every year. we also know the statue of liberty was from france. if you're not already blind from that shitty bet, do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead

Yeah. The thing about official gifts is they get talked about. That’s the point.

The tulips in Ottawa... yeah, the Netherlands gave them to Canada for help during WW2.  Anybody who has been to Ottawa during the tulip festival knows this!

I hope you got a chance to see them before the blindness kicks in!



  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5293

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu Province, Taiwan
    more
This thread has been completely derailed.    >:(
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


  • tylerthegloob
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1014

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
This thread has been completely derailed.    >:(

ah, you must be new here... you'll get used to it


  • leaponover
  • Expert Waygook

    • 634

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
After 9/11, France did not support the American military and gov't plan to bomb Iraq, calling it a grab for oil, not a genuine attack against WMDs.

U.S. right wingers spoke of changing "French fries" (a Belgian creation) to "freedom fries".

The American right wing, Republican anger toward France and all things French was PATHETIC!

Just saying...

I remember this very well. As an aside, when was the last time you heard an American say anything nice about France or French people?

How many Americans realize their great symbol of freedom and welcome, the Statue of Liberty, was a gift from France?

I'm guessing very very few. If it became common knowledge they'd probably tear that down too.

I'd say 95% of people over 40 will know the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France.  That's a fairly large percent of the population.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
To be fair, in hindsight invading Iraq was a bad idea for everyone except Halliburton shareholders.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4277

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
37 million Iraqis can now live free in a democracy rather than under a brutal dictator.


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5545

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
37 million Iraqis can now live free in a democracy rather than under a brutal dictator.
    Since the execution of Saddam Hussein, 37 million Iraqis can live in a free democracy with civil war, constant violent insurgencies, the encroachment of ISIS, the Yazidis genocide, serious political and economic instability, and the possible fragmentation into 3 or 4 separate states that all hate each other.
       Hussein was not great for his country, but don't pretend that what the area is currently going through is any better.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4277

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
It's better now, and it will be better in the future.

GDP tripled. Inflation went down. Living standards are improving.

I'm from Canada

What a surprise.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4277

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Canada

I'm utterly shocked. Couldn't have predicted that.