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Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2019, 02:14:42 pm »
THE RECRUITERS SAID THERE WERE SHORTAGES.  I already said this.  It is not my opinion.  The hakwons are trying to keep the wage down by lowballing.  Collusion that is illegal in the west is legal here.  They get together in a cartel and try to collude rather than compete. 
I may be going out on a limb here, but at least when it comes to the smaller hagwons, the level of this collusion is probably nowhere near as extensive as you imagine it being. I'd imagine the big ones probably are much more active and in lock-step when it comes to wages and rates.

As far as wage collusion, there's as much evidence for that as there is that McDonald's, KFC, Arby's, and Wendy's are all colluding by offering minimum wage and slightly above to their employees. It's really hard to differentiate between collusion and the market. From the company's perspective the benefits gained by paying 1 million more won a month probably don't cover the costs relative to paying someone 1.8 million. Where you see collusion and whatever, others might see them finally wising up to inflated salaries.

This isn't apologizing, it's simply stating what the real world is- A bitter cruel place where everyone acts out of their own interests and no one owes you anything and choices have consequences.

That all being said, I do think that if someone were to attempt to organize some sort of collective bargaining organization, they might be more successful this time around given changes in standards regarding international law. However, any attempt to strike or organize for higher wages would be deeply unpopular with much of the local populace who has every interest in lower costs for themselves.


  • leaponover
  • Expert Waygook

    • 519

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2019, 11:06:44 am »
Do you think the owners are that organized that they are acting in league, on a national level?



That is what they call the Hagwon Association....it exists.

You do realize it's not the English Hagwon Association.  The hagwon association is for all hagwons and I've been to the meetings.  They've only once mentioned how much to pay teachers.  It's about ways to keep students and flourish as a business owner.  In fact, one time they did mention to try to find reputable Western teachers and pay them a little bit more.....the few times they've spoken directly about English hagwons.


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1213

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #122 on: July 17, 2019, 08:00:51 am »
The hakwon association said to offer one way flights instead of two.  They all did it at the same time.  Hakwons have shortages and are still offering 2.1 to 2.3 minus return flight.  Supply and demand would require under normal market rules to pay more.  Yet, they are not.  Bucking the trend, the only explanation has to be collusion either there, in the meetings you are not in, or via some other online forum.  When the market was flooded during the great recession and work conditions got worse, lots of folks complained.  I said then it was supply and demand.  Korea needs to start having shortages before it changes.  This applies to any non union work environment.  As for someone else talking about McDonalds, there are no shortage of workers there.  I do remember in the late 90's as a kid hearing about McDonald's in the US having shortages and they had to increase their wages in local markets about the 5 dollar an hour minimum wage at that time to get people.  Again supply and demand.   


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 603

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #123 on: July 17, 2019, 08:20:10 am »
Quote
You do realize it's not the English Hagwon Association.  The hagwon association is for all hagwons and I've been to the meetings.  They've only once mentioned how much to pay teachers.  It's about ways to keep students and flourish as a business owner.  In fact, one time they did mention to try to find reputable Western teachers and pay them a little bit more.....the few times they've spoken directly about English hagwons.


Forgive me if I am skeptical but....I am skeptical. 


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2783

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #124 on: July 17, 2019, 08:36:55 am »
Hakwons have shortages...
This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you have little more than anecdotal evidence from....who? A recruiter. How many recruiters/agents are you in contact with, that are telling you this?

I have anecdotal evidence too. The local facebook page for my area as well as the job postings bank has seen no increase in hagwon job postings compared to previous years. People who I know who work at hagwons haven't spoken about their schools crying put for workers or a jump in over time due to lack out of teachers. My wife works part time for a national hagwon chain and works at about 4 or 5 of the branches in our city and she hasn't said anything about hagwon's facing staffing shortages with foreign teachers. There are one of two hagwon owners who post on this forum. Such as leaponover just above your post. Hey, leaponover, have you heard anything about a supply issue, with hagwons facing shortages in finding native English teachers? At your school or your friends schools? Skimming the job postings at daves, their doesn't seem to be more than you find during a typical July.

The fact is, if there ARE real, prolonged shortages that effect the hagwon's business, then they will increase salaries/benefits. As that is basic economics and there is no way around other than doing away with native english teachers in your business. The fact that that hasn't happened, suggests that either the "shortages" don't exist or are not as severe as your recruiter friend would have you believe.


Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • OnNut81
  • Expert Waygook

    • 845

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #125 on: July 17, 2019, 08:55:53 am »
Hakwons have shortages...
This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you have little more than anecdotal evidence from....who? A recruiter. How many recruiters/agents are you in contact with, that are telling you this?

I have anecdotal evidence too. The local facebook page for my area as well as the job postings bank has seen no increase in hagwon job postings compared to previous years. People who I know who work at hagwons haven't spoken about their schools crying put for workers or a jump in over time due to lack out of teachers. My wife works part time for a national hagwon chain and works at about 4 or 5 of the branches in our city and she hasn't said anything about hagwon's facing staffing shortages with foreign teachers. There are one of two hagwon owners who post on this forum. Such as leaponover just above your post. Hey, leaponover, have you heard anything about a supply issue, with hagwons facing shortages in finding native English teachers? At your school or your friends schools? Skimming the job postings at daves, their doesn't seem to be more than you find during a typical July.

The fact is, if there ARE real, prolonged shortages that effect the hagwon's business, then they will increase salaries/benefits. As that is basic economics and there is no way around other than doing away with native english teachers in your business. The fact that that hasn't happened, suggests that either the "shortages" don't exist or are not as severe as your recruiter friend would have you believe.

This is where Hangook's call to arms is failing.  Instead of convincing people that this shortage exists with empirical evidence he just says he knows it's true because some recruiters told him.  If you question this scenario he immediately lashes out and labels you a cuck, pu$$y, wimp or apologist.  Perhaps providing more evidence or a civil attempt at convincing you would have left more people open to his line of thinking.  As it is, he just comes across as some angry guy.  I would welcome this new dynamic in the ESL industry.  Not being convinced it does in fact exist doesn't make one an apologist. 


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 2325

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #126 on: July 17, 2019, 09:05:56 am »
Hakwons have shortages...
This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you have little more than anecdotal evidence from....who? A recruiter. How many recruiters/agents are you in contact with, that are telling you this?

I have anecdotal evidence too. The local facebook page for my area as well as the job postings bank has seen no increase in hagwon job postings compared to previous years. People who I know who work at hagwons haven't spoken about their schools crying put for workers or a jump in over time due to lack out of teachers. My wife works part time for a national hagwon chain and works at about 4 or 5 of the branches in our city and she hasn't said anything about hagwon's facing staffing shortages with foreign teachers. There are one of two hagwon owners who post on this forum. Such as leaponover just above your post. Hey, leaponover, have you heard anything about a supply issue, with hagwons facing shortages in finding native English teachers? At your school or your friends schools? Skimming the job postings at daves, their doesn't seem to be more than you find during a typical July.

The fact is, if there ARE real, prolonged shortages that effect the hagwon's business, then they will increase salaries/benefits. As that is basic economics and there is no way around other than doing away with native english teachers in your business. The fact that that hasn't happened, suggests that either the "shortages" don't exist or are not as severe as your recruiter friend would have you believe.



bUt ThE HaGwOn AsSocIaTiOn ArE sUpReSsInG ThE WaGeS


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2019, 09:17:39 am »
The fact is, if there ARE real, prolonged shortages that effect the hagwon's business, then they will increase salaries/benefits. As that is basic economics and there is no way around other than doing away with native english teachers in your business. The fact that that hasn't happened, suggests that either the "shortages" don't exist or are not as severe as your recruiter friend would have you believe.

hangook is incapable of understanding this. i tried explaining it like 3 pages of comments ago


  • leaponover
  • Expert Waygook

    • 519

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2019, 12:39:35 pm »
Quote
You do realize it's not the English Hagwon Association.  The hagwon association is for all hagwons and I've been to the meetings.  They've only once mentioned how much to pay teachers.  It's about ways to keep students and flourish as a business owner.  In fact, one time they did mention to try to find reputable Western teachers and pay them a little bit more.....the few times they've spoken directly about English hagwons.



Forgive me if I am skeptical but....I am skeptical. 

That's fine if you don't believe me.  I'm just a guy on a message board.  I will tell you I shared this conspiracy with my wife who has been to many more than I have.  She looked at me in disbelief and said, "Westerners really think that?"  My response obviously was, "you'd be surprised what people think on these boards".  We both got a good chuckle out of it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 01:50:26 pm by leaponover »


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2019, 01:18:49 pm »
Hakwons have shortages...
This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you have little more than anecdotal evidence from....who? A recruiter. How many recruiters/agents are you in contact with, that are telling you this?

I have anecdotal evidence too. The local facebook page for my area as well as the job postings bank has seen no increase in hagwon job postings compared to previous years. People who I know who work at hagwons haven't spoken about their schools crying put for workers or a jump in over time due to lack out of teachers. My wife works part time for a national hagwon chain and works at about 4 or 5 of the branches in our city and she hasn't said anything about hagwon's facing staffing shortages with foreign teachers. There are one of two hagwon owners who post on this forum. Such as leaponover just above your post. Hey, leaponover, have you heard anything about a supply issue, with hagwons facing shortages in finding native English teachers? At your school or your friends schools? Skimming the job postings at daves, their doesn't seem to be more than you find during a typical July.

The fact is, if there ARE real, prolonged shortages that effect the hagwon's business, then they will increase salaries/benefits. As that is basic economics and there is no way around other than doing away with native english teachers in your business. The fact that that hasn't happened, suggests that either the "shortages" don't exist or are not as severe as your recruiter friend would have you believe.

This is where Hangook's call to arms is failing.  Instead of convincing people that this shortage exists with empirical evidence he just says he knows it's true because some recruiters told him.  If you question this scenario he immediately lashes out and labels you a cuck, pu$$y, wimp or apologist.  Perhaps providing more evidence or a civil attempt at convincing you would have left more people open to his line of thinking.  As it is, he just comes across as some angry guy.  I would welcome this new dynamic in the ESL industry.  Not being convinced it does in fact exist doesn't make one an apologist. 


Unless he marries a Korean and/or gets an F visa he'll end up as a bitter unemployable 40 year old, and his only options will be settling for a 2.1m job or going back home to work at McDonald's.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #130 on: July 17, 2019, 01:58:21 pm »
Hakwons have shortages...
This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you have little more than anecdotal evidence from....who? A recruiter. How many recruiters/agents are you in contact with, that are telling you this?

I have anecdotal evidence too. The local facebook page for my area as well as the job postings bank has seen no increase in hagwon job postings compared to previous years. People who I know who work at hagwons haven't spoken about their schools crying put for workers or a jump in over time due to lack out of teachers. My wife works part time for a national hagwon chain and works at about 4 or 5 of the branches in our city and she hasn't said anything about hagwon's facing staffing shortages with foreign teachers. There are one of two hagwon owners who post on this forum. Such as leaponover just above your post. Hey, leaponover, have you heard anything about a supply issue, with hagwons facing shortages in finding native English teachers? At your school or your friends schools? Skimming the job postings at daves, their doesn't seem to be more than you find during a typical July.

The fact is, if there ARE real, prolonged shortages that effect the hagwon's business, then they will increase salaries/benefits. As that is basic economics and there is no way around other than doing away with native english teachers in your business. The fact that that hasn't happened, suggests that either the "shortages" don't exist or are not as severe as your recruiter friend would have you believe.

This is where Hangook's call to arms is failing.  Instead of convincing people that this shortage exists with empirical evidence he just says he knows it's true because some recruiters told him.  If you question this scenario he immediately lashes out and labels you a cuck, pu$$y, wimp or apologist.  Perhaps providing more evidence or a civil attempt at convincing you would have left more people open to his line of thinking.  As it is, he just comes across as some angry guy.  I would welcome this new dynamic in the ESL industry.  Not being convinced it does in fact exist doesn't make one an apologist. 


Unless he marries a Korean and/or gets an F visa he'll end up as a bitter unemployable 40 year old, and his only options will be settling for a 2.1m job or going back home to work at McDonald's.

Which will be easy with all the "stares of attraction from women of all ages" that he gets on the regular!


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 603

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #131 on: July 17, 2019, 02:11:11 pm »
Quote
Which will be easy with all the "stares of attraction from women of all ages" that he gets on the regular!




Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2019, 02:21:57 pm »
Yeah I was making a tongue in cheek joke but thanks I guess.


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2019, 02:24:07 pm »
Yeah I was making a tongue in cheek joke but thanks I guess.

lol meanwhile hangook actually ignores arguments and calls everyone "wimpy cucks" ...for some reason northstar never calls him out on it


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3512

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #134 on: August 31, 2019, 03:13:50 pm »
The wages here in 2019 are sad and ridiculous, and I am completely fine with complaining about them. However you will NEVER get more.

Here's why.

1. There will always be someone more desperate than you. Even though minimum wage in America has reached parity with the average hagwon job in Korea, our friends in South Africa are seeing something like 27% youth unemployment and 2.1 plus housing at a hagwon seems like quite the deal compared to poverty.

2. As a group we have a terrible reputation. Just watch the news we are portrayed as drug using boozing sex offenders, and honestly in my personal working experiences here I have met the entire gamut of personalities good and bad. However the bad sticks out the most! Ive met homeless people, people that come to work in the same clothes all week, people who reek of liquor daily, consistently late of cancel classes etc etc etc. The list goes on and on.

3. Low professionalism. Now this isn't our fault per say Korea demands fresh out of college newbies because no one else will work for 2.1 in 2019 its a Mcdonalds wage back home. But it means most people have no experience whatsoever in the classroom.

4. Law Enforcement and Punishment is LAX.
Hagwon owners repeatedly lie and cheat their employees. Why? Why not? If they get caught the punishment is often cheaper than paying pension insurance etc.

5. Labor law is against you. Signing up for an E2 visa is indentured servitude. Yes I said it you have signed away your freedom and you are just one level above a slave. DONT come here without an E visa Iíve met people before that were genuine hagwon slaves blackmailed into really bad positions.  Historically slaves have little political sway or power. Your boss owns your visa, your house etc your entire life is owed to your master. You cannot vote or form a labor union so what politician would be inclined to help make your situation better?

6. Korea has become the only country in the world that has a total fertility rate below 1.
http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=3067335
To maintain its current population, Koreaís fertility rate needs to be 2.1 or above.

7. Increased awareness of Korea and teaching in Korea will continue to grow. More South Africans will apply. And a South African female is preferred over an American male.

8. An increase in working hours means less demand meaning less jobs available. A university raises its base hours from 12 to 15 hours = big impact on the market. A university tells its Westerners they have to teach 6 extra hours a week at 15,000 an hour overtime, and they say yes because they want to keep their job = big impact on the market.


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #135 on: August 31, 2019, 04:28:41 pm »
That fertility rate is absolutely shocking and actually makes Japan seem fertile.

 :shocked:



  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3512

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #136 on: September 01, 2019, 05:34:52 am »
Be honest, if you really knew that you can make more than $30,000 in the US you wouldn't be in Korea. Just accept that you're a loser along with the rest of us.

I clicked on MayorHaggar's Wikipedia link. The first supporting footnote link is this:
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

Quote
The median is the midpoint in a given earnings distribution, with half of workers having earnings above the median and the other half having earnings below the median.

Median for a white male: $53,352

Median for an Asian male: $69,212

What percentage of posters on this board are capable of breaking into the upper 50% (meaning above 53k or above 69k)? I'd say quite a few.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3512

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #137 on: September 01, 2019, 06:21:59 am »
Incidentally, most Americans don't have a university degree.

Median for a uni grad: $70,564.

Half make more than that; half make less than that.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4118

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #138 on: September 01, 2019, 06:33:31 am »
Incidentally, most Americans don't have a university degree.

Median for a uni grad: $70,564.

Half make more than that; half make less than that.

University grads include a lot of high paying professional careers. There arenít a lot of engineers, accountants, lawyers, or medical doctors teaching ESL in Korea.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3512

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2019, 07:23:31 am »
Median for a male with a bachelorís degree only: $73,892

Median for a male with an advanced degree: $98,072