Read 7189 times

  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1239

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« on: June 26, 2019, 08:04:57 am »
Bad job offers?  How to fight it as expats.  Every single one of us as foreigners should be calling out all the low pay offers on every Facebook group out there.  Telling the recruiters it's time for a raise.  If they say take it up with the school, then say they are the ones posting it.  If we all start giving them crap for giving 2.1 to 2.3 million won  2009 wages with one way flight, then they will get tired of it and eventually suggest to their client hakwons to raise wages.  Even though I'm not looking for a job, it is my duty and yours to push back.  We aren't in recession anymore.  Lots of folks have gone home and have gone to other countries.  Hakwon owners making 20 million won a month or more can afford to pay a bit more to keep up with 2019 cost of living demands.  Just sh@t all over the folks posting low ball offers.  If we all start pushing back, then when the time comes to get a job, it'll be better for us too.  If we need a fake Facebook account to do it, then so be it.  But join every Facebook job group and call out the low wage offers and do so on here too.  The recruiters will sick of us and have no choice but to tell the hakwons to put the wages up.  Of course if many of you act like pu$$ies and do nothing, then nothing will happen. 


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2019, 09:10:36 am »
Mean facebook comments will do nothing. It is whether someone will take the job or not. And someone probably will. Why? They cannot get a proper job in their home country.

Business owners making tons of money is no argument for them giving some of that to their employees. How do you think they got so rich in the first place? It wasn't by being overly generous to unspecialized individuals who are ten a penny.

If that was the case Amazon would pay a great salary yet we know they have some of the absolute worse working conditions given to employees.

Maybe you should start your own hakwon?


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3759

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2019, 09:44:08 am »
It might get the ball rolling if you posted the names of the Facebook groups you're referring to.


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 618

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2019, 10:26:55 am »
Mean facebook comments will do nothing. It is whether someone will take the job or not. And someone probably will. Why? They cannot get a proper job in their home country.

Business owners making tons of money is no argument for them giving some of that to their employees. How do you think they got so rich in the first place? It wasn't by being overly generous to unspecialized individuals who are ten a penny.

If that was the case Amazon would pay a great salary yet we know they have some of the absolute worse working conditions given to employees.

Maybe you should start your own hakwon?

Really?  "Cannot get a proper job in their home country"?.....is that the blanket narrative you are presenting?


  • plan b
  • Super Waygook

    • 262

    • March 22, 2013, 11:53:06 am
    • Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2019, 10:42:31 am »
We don't have a leg to stand on.

Kpop and this BTS fad have meant that a lot of youngsters want to come to Korea. They want to "try it" for a year.
Employers love these "one and dones", because they don't have to pay them a salary increase as they don't stay for a second year. They simply hire a new person.

If we lived in a country that actually valued experience, we would have something to negotiate with. As of right now, we don't have any bargaining chips. If we say we won't take a job, they will gladly take a less experienced person for less money.


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2019, 11:22:57 am »
Mean facebook comments will do nothing. It is whether someone will take the job or not. And someone probably will. Why? They cannot get a proper job in their home country.

Business owners making tons of money is no argument for them giving some of that to their employees. How do you think they got so rich in the first place? It wasn't by being overly generous to unspecialized individuals who are ten a penny.

If that was the case Amazon would pay a great salary yet we know they have some of the absolute worse working conditions given to employees.

I also think mean facebook comments won't change much, but remember that it's possible to be a wealthy business-owner AND pay your employees well. We've got to break this narrative of 'generosity' being a zero-sum game. There is enough wealth and productivity for everybody to live well.


  • OnNut81
  • Expert Waygook

    • 848

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2019, 11:55:49 am »
Unless the government steps in and applies some sort of regulation for the qualification of e2s beyond just a university degree and not having the plague or a criminal record there isn't much that can be done.  Hankook77's post reeks of a lack of understanding of basic business practices.  If the moms will continue to spend their won regardless of how inexperienced and fresh faced the teachers are, there is no incentive whatsoever to offer a higher salary when people are accepting the existing wage.  It's that simple. 

The government is not going to push to reform the hakwan system when the populace is saying they don't think it's broken.  The message needs to get out to the parents that people with zero experience (beyond the ubiquitous "I helped tutor in uni" i.e., I knew a foreign student) are not the best people to have in the classroom.  If the parents don't want someone with zero experience in Korea and understand that most fresh arrivals are the ones most likely to be hammered on a weeknight and hungover at school (did it two decades ago when I first took a spin over here so not judging) then things may change.  Until then, FB pressure on the recruiters is a waste of time. 


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1239

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2019, 12:26:46 pm »
Ah, the best of defeatist attitudes on display here.  The reality is recruiters will get tired of having folks troll them and $h!t on them every time they post and eventually go and ask for more money.  If recruiters are posting it then recruiters can ask.  They will get sick of the stress of us arguing with them.  As for someone saying the government, the government doesn't need any involvement.  Is it really that hard to drop an occasional comment on various Facebook Korean job esl groups about low pay and being stuck at 2007 wages.  I'm starting to think the problem isn't cheapo Korean hakwons, but lame foreigners with defeatest attitudes that won't stick up for themselves but are pu$$y apologists.  K Pop and BTS is not supported by most westerners.  It is less than 000000.01% of the population.  It is a few people but not many. 

But as for Americans how about some math?

2007  2.1 million won was 2200 US dollars.  Lose 10 per cent for deductions.  Let's say 1.9 million left over.  Korea was cheap as f@k so you could leave yourself 500 thousand won a month and send the remainder home.  So, you sent home 1.4 million won and got 1500 bucks in your bank account when you transferred it back home.  You could both save up some money and pay your loans. 

2019 2.1 million won minus 100,000 won each month to pay the flight since round trip flights were cut off a couple of years ago.  So, now you have 2 million won.  But taxes bring you to 1.8 million won in theory.  Though it seems like the Korean government is looking for more excuses to charge more and take more at the end of the year compared to the past.  But lets keep it simple at 1.8 take home pay after taxes and putting some aside for the return flight home.  Korea is more expensive than it use to be.  I am going to say you prob need to keep 900 thousand won to a million won (assuming you're not sacrificing your health eating cheap ramien for all your meals.)  So, now you can send home 800,000 won and the exchange rate for Americans is terrible nowadays.  So, you will end up with 700 bucks in your bank back home after you wire the money home.  That's barely enough to pay the student loans each month.  Good luck saving much. 

But if folks are stupid and can't do math, then yes, keep coming over and taking the offer.  China and Vietnam pay more or near the same but with a much cheaper cost of living and the ability to save and send more home.  Those BTS kids are fewer than you think and only a very tiny tiny portion.  But even they will realize after a year that the pay isn't enough to settle the loans and have some savings.  But many folks aren't good with math or money nowadays. 

Anyhow, if every time a recruiter or hakwon posts a low ball job some random foreigner calls them out on it, they will get tired of it and the stress and start pushing for higher wages themselves or start recommending to the companies they pay more.  I have spoken to a couple of recruiters I know (who I didn't spam because I know and like them).  They said it is getting hard to fill many hakwon positions already.  EPIK seems to still have enough but barely.  Some hakwons have started raising their wages and you can get 2.5 to 2.9 offers for some.  But many sickos are still offering 2.1 to 2.3.  Troll them, call them out.  If hakwon wages get up to 2.8 to 3.0 or more then it will also put pressure on EPIK and also universities who are still lowballing.  Hakwons can respond quickly while public bureacracy takes longer. 

The economy doesn't always affect the industry here.  After 1997 Asian crash (IMF crises) the Korean economy was never the same.  A muted recovery by 2001 was in full swing.  Koreans didn't feel as prosperous as the past.  But, the market for English teachers was still hot.  A temporary blip for a couple of years during 1998 and 1999 was experienced.  (Someone on Daves even remarked that the hookers behind Yongsan Train Station even accepted foreigners for a time.  Ha ha  That's how bad it was at the time.)  2009 saw a flooded market and deteriorating conditions as too many Americans came here to escape the recession.  Market conditions declined until 2013 or 2014ish.  After this time, getting a hakwon job got easy again.  But, some of these greedy owners making 20 or 30 million won a month decided to join with their hakwon cartel buddies and cut back perks like round trip flight just because they could.  Now they have shortages again.  It has been independently confirmed.  Drive a hard bargain to get a higher wage for the next hakwon you apply for especially those ASAP offers. 


But if you want nothing to change keep being defeatist.  As for Facebook, search out ESL Korea, Korean teaching jobs, etc in your search engine and join the groups. 


  • lhelena
  • Veteran

    • 104

    • March 11, 2018, 01:57:14 pm
    • Anseong
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2019, 12:33:09 pm »
The trolling will only result in recruiters no longer posting jobs for people to find so conveniently. They'll retreat back to their own websites and make you come to them. They know that if someone wants to come here badly enough they'll seek the jobs out and take whatever pay/benefits are offered (especially if they don't know any better).


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2019, 12:41:12 pm »
We don't have a leg to stand on.

Kpop and this BTS fad have meant that a lot of youngsters want to come to Korea. They want to "try it" for a year.
Employers love these "one and dones", because they don't have to pay them a salary increase as they don't stay for a second year. They simply hire a new person.

You're right, the Koreaboo factor is the main cause. For every English teacher who refuses a low salary there are many more who will take a low paying job in order to live in Korea. An increasing supply of young English teachers means salary and working conditions can only deteriorate in the future. Nothing we can do about that.


  • OnNut81
  • Expert Waygook

    • 848

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2019, 12:47:40 pm »
Hangkook77: So if someone doesn't think there is much merit to your troll the recruiters on FB method of changing the industry pay scale they are defeatist?  Or maybe they're just realist. 

Your long winded response didn't address anything relevant in regards to changing the pay offered.  Despite gems like " It has been independently confirmed."  Oh?  Well, that's a game changer.  What is the independent body that confirmed it and what were the  criteria in determining that?  You and some recruiters you know and like? 

Simple facts.  There are enough western grads that look at 2.1 million a month and their own apartment as absolutely worth coming over for.  Unless the mothers decide to not send their children to places that employ these inexperienced people there is no reason for things to change.  There needs to be a whole paradigm shift and that is not going to come from the recruiters.  They are just industry schills for the most part.  If you really want to enact change, convince teachers to pay the recruiters.  If the agreement contains the caveat that the fee will only be rendered after a month of working provided conditions match what was promised you may light a fire under them.  As long as the schools pay the recruiters, the recruiters work for them. 



  • creeper1
  • Veteran

    • 124

    • September 09, 2010, 09:02:08 am
    • Hwaseong City
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 12:55:35 pm »
Of course the recruiters will post something like "salary to be discussed at interview"  or "salary range 2.1 - 2.8 million won depending on qualifications and experience" if they were really bothered by facebook trolls.

You know you made the wrong career choice when your co-worker newbie 20 years younger is earning the same salary as you or you are competing for the same jobs.

Hangook77 is detailing how things are better in China or Vietnam. So why not go there then Hangook77?


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 618

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2019, 01:31:34 pm »
I think some may be giving KPOOP a bit too much credit.  If that crap (and it is that) attacks folks that come here simply because of KPOOP, then...I guess crap begets crap. 

It has been said before...Korea is just digging in, for whatever reasons, it heels.  Vietnam has opened up, China is a wide market, folks are going back to Taiwan (from what I was told) due to new education platforms involving English and Cambodia is even an option . Thailand will be there but it sucks, for the most part, in terms of pay and having to bear their sense of nationalism.

Anyway..the best thing to do is just pass the facts on to new folks.  Salaries here are on the decline with a higher cost of living and dwindling benefits.  And yet, despite the fact that folks ARE going elsewhere, Korea just keeps shitting on itself.  But, that makes perfect sense.

So, Hangook is  not off his/her rocker.  He/She is just stating what is obvious....


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 618

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 03:56:36 pm »
Quote
Ah, the best of defeatist attitudes on display here.  The reality is recruiters will get tired of having folks troll them and $h!t on them every time they post and eventually go and ask for more money.  If recruiters are posting it then recruiters can ask.  They will get sick of the stress of us arguing with them.  As for someone saying the government, the government doesn't need any involvement.  Is it really that hard to drop an occasional comment on various Facebook Korean job esl groups about low pay and being stuck at 2007 wages.  I'm starting to think the problem isn't cheapo Korean hakwons, but lame foreigners with defeatest attitudes that won't stick up for themselves but are pu$$y apologists.  K Pop and BTS is not supported by most westerners.  It is less than 000000.01% of the population.  It is a few people but not many.

But as for Americans how about some math?

2007  2.1 million won was 2200 US dollars.  Lose 10 per cent for deductions.  Let's say 1.9 million left over.  Korea was cheap as f@k so you could leave yourself 500 thousand won a month and send the remainder home.  So, you sent home 1.4 million won and got 1500 bucks in your bank account when you transferred it back home.  You could both save up some money and pay your loans.

2019 2.1 million won minus 100,000 won each month to pay the flight since round trip flights were cut off a couple of years ago.  So, now you have 2 million won.  But taxes bring you to 1.8 million won in theory.  Though it seems like the Korean government is looking for more excuses to charge more and take more at the end of the year compared to the past.  But lets keep it simple at 1.8 take home pay after taxes and putting some aside for the return flight home.  Korea is more expensive than it use to be.  I am going to say you prob need to keep 900 thousand won to a million won (assuming you're not sacrificing your health eating cheap ramien for all your meals.)  So, now you can send home 800,000 won and the exchange rate for Americans is terrible nowadays.  So, you will end up with 700 bucks in your bank back home after you wire the money home.  That's barely enough to pay the student loans each month.  Good luck saving much.

But if folks are stupid and can't do math, then yes, keep coming over and taking the offer.  China and Vietnam pay more or near the same but with a much cheaper cost of living and the ability to save and send more home.  Those BTS kids are fewer than you think and only a very tiny tiny portion.  But even they will realize after a year that the pay isn't enough to settle the loans and have some savings.  But many folks aren't good with math or money nowadays.

Anyhow, if every time a recruiter or hakwon posts a low ball job some random foreigner calls them out on it, they will get tired of it and the stress and start pushing for higher wages themselves or start recommending to the companies they pay more.  I have spoken to a couple of recruiters I know (who I didn't spam because I know and like them).  They said it is getting hard to fill many hakwon positions already.  EPIK seems to still have enough but barely.  Some hakwons have started raising their wages and you can get 2.5 to 2.9 offers for some.  But many sickos are still offering 2.1 to 2.3.  Troll them, call them out.  If hakwon wages get up to 2.8 to 3.0 or more then it will also put pressure on EPIK and also universities who are still lowballing.  Hakwons can respond quickly while public bureacracy takes longer.

The economy doesn't always affect the industry here.  After 1997 Asian crash (IMF crises) the Korean economy was never the same.  A muted recovery by 2001 was in full swing.  Koreans didn't feel as prosperous as the past.  But, the market for English teachers was still hot.  A temporary blip for a couple of years during 1998 and 1999 was experienced.  (Someone on Daves even remarked that the hookers behind Yongsan Train Station even accepted foreigners for a time.  Ha ha  That's how bad it was at the time.)  2009 saw a flooded market and deteriorating conditions as too many Americans came here to escape the recession.  Market conditions declined until 2013 or 2014ish.  After this time, getting a hakwon job got easy again.  But, some of these greedy owners making 20 or 30 million won a month decided to join with their hakwon cartel buddies and cut back perks like round trip flight just because they could.  Now they have shortages again.  It has been independently confirmed.  Drive a hard bargain to get a higher wage for the next hakwon you apply for especially those ASAP offers.


But if you want nothing to change keep being defeatist.  As for Facebook, search out ESL Korea, Korean teaching jobs, etc in your search engine and join the groups. 

YEP!


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4121

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2019, 09:37:56 am »
Itís what the market asks.



  • thunderlips
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1583

    • June 07, 2012, 10:01:55 am
    • South Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2019, 09:42:18 am »
I agree in theory about refusing shit jobs/wages/benefits, but there will always be a new class of graduates looking to come here. In some cases even older workers will migrate simply for the change. And as others have said the parents donít care about experience or qualifications, they only want young attractive kids mostly.


  • leaponover
  • Expert Waygook

    • 521

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2019, 12:55:03 pm »
Bad job offers?  How to fight it as expats.  Every single one of us as foreigners should be calling out all the low pay offers on every Facebook group out there.  Telling the recruiters it's time for a raise.  If they say take it up with the school, then say they are the ones posting it.  If we all start giving them crap for giving 2.1 to 2.3 million won  2009 wages with one way flight, then they will get tired of it and eventually suggest to their client hakwons to raise wages.  Even though I'm not looking for a job, it is my duty and yours to push back.  We aren't in recession anymore.  Lots of folks have gone home and have gone to other countries.  Hakwon owners making 20 million won a month or more can afford to pay a bit more to keep up with 2019 cost of living demands.  Just sh@t all over the folks posting low ball offers.  If we all start pushing back, then when the time comes to get a job, it'll be better for us too.  If we need a fake Facebook account to do it, then so be it.  But join every Facebook job group and call out the low wage offers and do so on here too.  The recruiters will sick of us and have no choice but to tell the hakwons to put the wages up.  Of course if many of you act like pu$$ies and do nothing, then nothing will happen. 

LOL, if Koreans can't get raises it's not going to happen for Westerners.  Their wages are stuck too and they work way harder.  It's not going to happen....


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 2335

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2019, 01:30:29 pm »
if you can't change the market, you can always change yourself

there are good jobs out there (in korea), you just may need the experience/qualifications to get them

most hagwons are basically entry level jobs anyway


  • plan b
  • Super Waygook

    • 262

    • March 22, 2013, 11:53:06 am
    • Korea
Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2019, 03:28:01 pm »
Ah, the best of defeatist attitudes on display here.  The reality is recruiters will get tired of having folks troll them and $h!t on them every time they post and eventually go and ask for more money.  If recruiters are posting it then recruiters can ask.  They will get sick of the stress of us arguing with them.  As for someone saying the government, the government doesn't need any involvement.  Is it really that hard to drop an occasional comment on various Facebook Korean job esl groups about low pay and being stuck at 2007 wages.  I'm starting to think the problem isn't cheapo Korean hakwons, but lame foreigners with defeatest attitudes that won't stick up for themselves but are pu$$y apologists.  K Pop and BTS is not supported by most westerners.  It is less than 000000.01% of the population.  It is a few people but not many. 

Listen, we appreciate you coming up with ideas to combat these low wages. Its just that its not realistic.
At every level there are a lot of barriers to overcome. To start with a lot of people who come over to teach don't really care about the salary. They are here for a year and the "experience" of being in Korea.  They are happy enough to receive their 2.1 and housing. It's people like you and me who are affected negatively, people who stay in Korea for an extended period of time.

Korea doesn't value experience, and once one has been here more than a few years, Koreans wonder why you haven't gone home yet. Koreans generally dislike foreigners and see them as a cheap source of labour. In my 2nd year in Korea, I started at a new school. When I went to get the principals signature, he was aghast that I was going to be paid 2.1 instead of 2.0 like the previous teacher. My co-teacher had to tell him that I was getting more because I now had a year of experience.

This past year I was let go because I was making too much money (2.5). They wanted a new person they could pay a salary of 2.0.

So the concept of demanding more money is simply laughable to me. These jobs were never seen as ones which somebody would do for more than a couple of years, and schools start to get nervous when someone reaches the top of the scale in pay (public schools)

I'm at the top of my pay scale and I had to go to a god damn island to get a job here. Nobody wants to pay the salary level I am at(2.5), and especially not to a male like me. And males are the ones that are mostly lifers here.

The reason I mention Kpop and BTS is that is attract a lot of women to Korea. Women who come here for the most part for a year, and then leave. If you have a steady stream of labour that comes in to work for a year and then leaves, then you never have to worry about paying more money as an employer. Especially when Koreans keep telling me that "younger" is better.


Re: Bad job offers? How to fight it as expats.
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2019, 04:16:36 pm »
South Korea's been in a recession for the last 2 years or so, good luck asking for more money. Those "easy 3.0m a month 4 hours a day" jobs that people brag about on the internet simply do not exist for 99% of waygooks. If you're making 2.2m a month then you're doing fine, and with the free apartment you're making more money than most people back home.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit