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  • bb459
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"When They See Us" - a must watch
« on: June 10, 2019, 08:29:40 am »
Make sure you watch "When They See Us" on Netflix.
This heartbreaking and infuriating case happened in 1989.
And more cases like it continue today.

Watch this and tell your family and friends to watch it.
Should be mandatory viewing as it shows the true nature of the justice
system in amerika.


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2019, 09:10:33 am »
Quote
Should be mandatory viewing as it shows the true nature of the justice
system in amerika.

30 years ago


  • kyndo
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2019, 09:29:14 am »
I doubt that the justice system has changed much in 30 years, eggieguffer.

Also: Amerika
 :wink:


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2019, 09:31:39 am »
If there was such a thing as "Felony Rape" ala "Felony Murder", these guys would have been considered guilty. But there isn't and there wasn't enough evidence to tie them to an outright rape and their convictions were vacated. That's how it should be.


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2019, 09:58:33 am »
I doubt that the justice system has changed much in 30 years, eggieguffer.

Also: Amerika
 :wink:

Really? The Stephen Lawrence case happened in 1993 in the UK and things have changed a hell of a lot since then. Though no doubt Waygo0k will be along in a minute to claim they haven't. Nowadays British police trainees spend about two whole days on diversity training and a couple of hours on how to solve burglaries.  Progress.


  • kyndo
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 10:12:31 am »
I doubt that the justice system has changed much in 30 years, eggieguffer.

Also: Amerika
 :wink:

Really? The Stephen Lawrence case happened in 1993 in the UK and things have changed a hell of a lot since then. Though no doubt Waygo0k will be along in a minute to claim they haven't. Nowadays British police trainees spend about two whole days on diversity training and a couple of hours on how to solve burglaries.  Progress.
Police would be the executive system, not the judicial system, wouldn't they?
Anyway, plenty of more recent cases of racial profiling leading to iffy arrests / unprovoked police actions in the US.

   On the other hand, reading the wiki on the Central Park Jogger Case, it looks like they had their convictions vacated, and were paid 8 million bucks a piece for their 8 or so year of imprisonment (with a few million more possibly coming down the pike), so I guess that does show a certain amount of regret on the part of the city.

And while their convictions were not right, they weren't exactly blameless in the rape and assault cases either: they shouldn't have been charged with rape, but definitely should have been for assault, and possibly for attempted murder (although that probably wouldn't have stuck in a fair court).


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 10:49:39 am »
And while their convictions were not right, they weren't exactly blameless in the rape and assault cases either: they shouldn't have been charged with rape, but definitely should have been for assault, and possibly for attempted murder (although that probably wouldn't have stuck in a fair court).

As I said, if we have "Felony Murder", which I'm somewhat iffy on, then this should be "Felony Rape" (but no such crime exists). Strong-armed robbery and aggravated assaults are felonies. Being the cause of her immediate subsequent rape means they were the proximate cause of everything that happened. Her being raped was a reasonably foreseeable outcome. None of them have ever disputed they assaulted her and stole stuff from her.

I really think people need to reconsider their strong support of these guys and if this is really a hill they want to die on. But I dunno, sort of looks like the media spin is working.

However, as I said, their cases should still have been vacated under the laws on the books and the standards we have. You can't beat confessions out of people and if there's DNA of someone else, well, that's reasonable doubt.


  • T_Rex
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    • April 23, 2019, 08:10:20 am
Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 11:05:13 am »
"Ann Coulter: Central Park Rapists — Trump was Right"
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/07/25/ann-coulter-central-park-rapists-trump-right/

They were all involved in the attack on some level. DNA science was pretty primitive back then. The police did not do a thorough job of collecting evidence that could be tested for DNA.  So it's not that surprising that their DNA wasn't found. They committed other violent crimes that night including beating someone unconscious and permanently disabling another person.


  • bb459
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 12:19:21 pm »
"Ann Coulter: Central Park Rapists — Trump was Right"
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/07/25/ann-coulter-central-park-rapists-trump-right/

They were all involved in the attack on some level. DNA science was pretty primitive back then. The police did not do a thorough job of collecting evidence that could be tested for DNA.  So it's not that surprising that their DNA wasn't found. They committed other violent crimes that night including beating someone unconscious and permanently disabling another person.

You're out here citing Ann Coulter as a source of facts.
That's hilarious.

As for eggieguffer's usual delusional out of touch comments.
Yes, it was JUST 30 years ago.
Yes, it was ONLY 30 years ago.

The people involved are still alive today.
Including the person who put a bounty on their heads - your current president.


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 12:54:13 pm »
Quote
As for eggieguffer's usual delusional out of touch comments.
Yes, it was JUST 30 years ago.
Yes, it was ONLY 30 years ago.

30 years is, or should be, a long time in terms of changes in the legal system, race relations, social change or advances in science (DNA), as someone else pointed out. Sorry your country is so slow moving.


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 01:12:50 pm »
You're out here citing Ann Coulter as a source of facts.
That's hilarious.
Ann Coulter is not reliable. However her not being reliable does not mean the facts she cited are not true. You have to go through and show which ones are or are not.


  • bb459
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 01:15:28 pm »
Quote
As for eggieguffer's usual delusional out of touch comments.
Yes, it was JUST 30 years ago.
Yes, it was ONLY 30 years ago.

30 years is, or should be, a long time in terms of changes in the legal system, race relations, social change or advances in science (DNA), as someone else pointed out. Sorry your country is so slow moving.

"is" and "should be" are not the same
You're out here citing Ann Coulter as a source of facts.
That's hilarious.
Ann Coulter is not reliable. However her not being reliable does not mean the facts she cited are not true. You have to go through and show which ones are or are not.

that's why I made the post. watch the program. it's pretty easy to see.


  • waygo0k
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 01:34:07 pm »

Really? The Stephen Lawrence case happened in 1993 in the UK and things have changed a hell of a lot since then. Though no doubt Waygo0k will be along in a minute to claim they haven't. Nowadays British police trainees spend about two whole days on diversity training and a couple of hours on how to solve burglaries.  Progress.

Classic thoughtless response.

Weren’t you the one complaining about Liam Neeson allegedly being punished for a crime he didn’t commit just a few months back?

Meanwhile, possibly thousands continue to languish in jail for crimes they didn’t commit, and thousands more that are out have criminal records hanging on their necks for crimes they didn’t commit.

It’s not like you cared in the first place, unless it has something to do with “muh white culture genocide” or the “good old days”.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:38:53 pm by kyndo »


  • HappyPlanetAbuser
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 01:41:03 pm »
Should be mandatory viewing as it shows the true nature of the justice
system in amerika.

@kyndo
Too old to understand this hidden coding?  ;D  Nice colours though!

Quote
Amerika
    The definition of Amerika is an alternative spelling for the name America (referring specifically to the United States of America) intending to portray the country as fascist and oppressive and culturally inferior.
Drumpf kopf 2020!


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 01:46:58 pm »

Really? The Stephen Lawrence case happened in 1993 in the UK and things have changed a hell of a lot since then. Though no doubt Waygo0k will be along in a minute to claim they haven't. Nowadays British police trainees spend about two whole days on diversity training and a couple of hours on how to solve burglaries.  Progress.

Classic thoughtless response.

It was actually a direct quote from a book I was reading recently by an ex copper.

Weren’t you the one complaining about Liam Neeson allegedly being punished for a crime he didn’t commit just a few months back?

Yes he shouldn't have been

Meanwhile, possibly thousands continue to languish in jail for crimes they didn’t commit, and thousands more that are out have criminal records hanging on their necks for crimes they didn’t commit.

They shouldn't have been and should be released.

It’s not like you cared in the first place, unless it has something to do with “muh white culture genocide” or the “good old days”.

Give it a rest eh?

 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:58:00 pm by eggieguffer »


  • waygo0k
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    • Chungnam
Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2019, 02:09:51 pm »
And since our resident "but they were criminals anyway" experts have spoken...WTF do federal rape and federal assault mean?

DNA evidence was extracted from semen deposited on the jogger's sock, found near her at the crime scene. It did not match any of the defendants, or any other known sample.* The same was true of DNA evidence extracted from a cervical swab; it did not match the defendants or any other known sample.

They knew this BACK THEN

Expert testimony at trial, however, established that the DNA from both the victim and the sock appeared to have come from the same source. Testimony also established that the DNA was not a
mixture; it was from a single source, meaning that only one individual had ejaculated.


Again...ONE, not five.

A pubic hair found on the sock was also examined microscopically. It was likewise found to be
inconsistent with the defendants and every other known source.


There is literally nothing that can definitively place the boys at the scene.

The only thing they found was hair on the of boys that could have come from the jogger. It was not DNA tested, and it could literally have come from anywhere...included contamination (deliberate or otherwise) of evidence.

It's all here

The videoed "confessions" that were elicited illegally from the boys were so bad that literally NOTHING they said corroborated with the facts of the case other than that the woman was raped.

So once more, under which law and with which evidence should the have been found guilty?


  • kyndo
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2019, 02:21:38 pm »
@kyndo
Too old to understand this hidden coding?  ;D
  Old? Old??? Ha!
I'm not American, so am not too embarrassed to admit that I'm not entirely sure about secret codes. They're an .... enigma to me.  :laugh:
I was also kinda amused, because "Amerika" is how everybody spells "America" where I come from.
But mostly, I just liked the song. It's catchy!
Nice colours though!
You do know that often blue font means there's a hyperlink, right? No offence: I just wouldn't want you to miss any of my incredibly relevant links!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 10:36:07 am by kyndo »


  • HappyPlanetAbuser
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2019, 04:12:51 pm »
 ;D
Drumpf kopf 2020!


Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2019, 12:15:48 am »
And since our resident "but they were criminals anyway" experts have spoken...
They could be guilty as sin (and perhaps very well are guilty of putting her in a position to be utterly at someone's mercy by possibly even probably mugging and beating her). It doesn't matter. You can't beat up suspects and you can't withhold evidence and if you find someone else's DNA, you vacate.

They could confess tomorrow and they should still be free (may change how we view them, but that's irrelevant). This is about proper law enforcement behavior.


  • T_Rex
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Re: "When They See Us" - a must watch
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2019, 10:31:11 am »
A recent article by the prosecutor:

Quote
Netflix's False Story of the Central Park Five; Ava DuVernay's miniseries wrongly portrays them as totally innocent—and defames me in the process.

By Linda Fairstein
June 10, 2019 7:03 p.m. ET

At about 9 p.m. April 19, 1989, a large group of young men gathered on the corner of 110th Street and Fifth Avenue for the purpose of robbing and beating innocent people in Central Park. There were more than 30 rioters, and the woman known as the "Central Park jogger," Trisha Meili, was not their only victim. Eight others were attacked, including two men who were beaten so savagely that they required hospitalization for head injuries.

Reporters and filmmakers have explored this story countless times from numerous perspectives, almost always focusing on five attackers and one female jogger. But each has missed the larger picture of that terrible night: a riot in the dark that resulted in the apprehension of more than 15 teenagers who set upon multiple victims. That a sociopath named Matias Reyes confessed in 2002 to the rape of Ms. Meili, and that the district attorney consequently vacated the charges against the five after they had served their sentences, has led some of these reporters and filmmakers to assume the prosecution had no basis on which to charge the five suspects in 1989. So it is with filmmaker Ava DuVernay in the Netflix miniseries "When They See Us," a series so full of distortions and falsehoods as to be an outright fabrication.

It shouldn't have been hard for Ms. DuVernay to discover the truth. The facts of the original case are documented in a 117-page decision by New York State Supreme Court Justice Thomas Galligan, in sworn testimony given in two trials and affirmed by two appellate courts, and in sworn depositions of more than 95 witnesses—including the five themselves. Instead she has written an utterly false narrative involving an evil mastermind (me) and the falsely accused (the five).

I was one of the supervisors who oversaw the team that prosecuted the teenagers apprehended after that horrific night of violence. Ms. DuVernay's film attempts to portray me as an overzealous prosecutor and a bigot, the police as incompetent or worse, and the five suspects as innocent of all charges against them. None of this is true.

Consider the film's most egregious falsehoods. "When They See Us" repeatedly portrays the suspects as being held without food, deprived of their parents' company and advice, and not even allowed to use the bathroom. If that had been true, surely they would have brought those issues up and prevailed in pretrial hearings on the voluntariness of their statements, as well as in their lawsuit against the city. They didn't, because it never happened.

In the first episode, the film portrays me at the precinct station house before dawn on April 20, the day after the attacks, unethically engineering the police investigation and making racist remarks. In reality, I didn't arrive until 8 p.m., 22 hours after the police investigation began, did not run the investigation, and never made any of the comments the screenwriter attributes to me.

Ms. DuVernay depicts suspects Yusef Salaam and Korey Wise being arrested on the street. In fact, two detectives went to the door of the Salaam apartment on the night of the 20th because both had been named by other rioters as attackers in multiple assaults.

The film claims that when Mr. Salaam's mother arrived and told police her son was only 15—meaning they could not question him without a parent in the room—I tried to stop her, demanding to see a birth certificate. The truth is that Mr. Salaam himself claimed to be 16 and even had a forged bus pass to "prove" it. When I heard his mother say he was 15, I immediately halted his questioning. This is all supported by sworn testimony.

Ms. DuVernay would have you believe the only evidence against the suspects was their allegedly forced confessions. That is not true. There is, for example, the African-American woman who testified at the trial—and again during the 2002 re-investigation—that when Korey Wise called her brother, he told her that he had held the jogger down and felt her breasts while others attacked her. There were blood stains and dirt on clothing of some of the five. And then there are the statements of more than a dozen of the other kids who participated in the park rampage. Although none of the others admitted joining in the rape of Trisha Meili, they admitted attacking male victims and a couple on a tandem bike, and each of them named some or all of the five as joining them.

Nor does the film note that Mr. Salaam took the stand at his trial, represented by a lawyer chosen and paid for by his mother, and testified that he had gone into the park carrying a 14-inch metal pipe—the same type of weapon that was used to bludgeon both a male schoolteacher and Ms. Meili. Mr. Reyes's confession changed none of this. He admitted being the man whose DNA had been left in the jogger's body and on her clothing, but the two juries that heard those facts knew the main assailant in the rape had not been caught. The five were charged as accomplices, as persons "acting in concert" with each other and with the then-unknown man who raped the jogger, not as those who actually performed the act. In their original confessions—later recanted—they admitted to grabbing her breasts and legs, and two of them admitted to climbing on top of her and simulating intercourse. Semen was found on the inside of their clothing, corroborating those confessions.

Mr. Reyes's confession, DNA match and claim that he acted alone required that the rape charges against the five be vacated. I agreed with that decision, and still do. But the other charges, for crimes against other victims, should not have been vacated. Nothing Mr. Reyes said exonerated these five of those attacks. And there was certainly more than enough evidence to support those convictions of first-degree assault, robbery, riot and other charges.

It is a wonderful thing that these five men have taken themselves to responsible positions and community respect. That Ms. DuVernay ignored so much of the truth about the gang of 30 and about the suffering of their victims—and that her film includes so many falsehoods—is nonetheless an outrage.

Ms. DuVernay does not define me, and her film does not speak the truth.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/netflixs-false-story-of-the-central-park-five-11560207823