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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #820 on: May 22, 2020, 01:02:16 pm »
The DOJ report is simply that - a report on what the investigators found. They were given a remit, and they published the information they could gather about subjects within their remit. The report does not contain any speculation about the impact of individual ads on public perception, about the relative efficacy of IRA operations and legal PAC spending, or whether other countries mount similar propaganda operations outside their own borders, or have done in the past.
That's the whole damn point. It didn't do any of that. It could have attempted to. It could have put everything into context so that people could realize how utterly insignificant all of it was. Instead they packaged and presented it as some sort of evidence of major electoral disruption by the Russians, which it wasn't. THAT is the problem- LIES OF OMISSION. It wasn't concerned with the truth, it was concerned with going after Trump in any way possible, but they just couldn't find the evidence to back it up.

Again: That's like the most basic damn question- Who else was interfering and why aren't we investigating them? Why was that question never asked by the Mueller Investigation?

And "Well that wasn't what they were tasked with" B.S. That investigation went wherever they thought they could go in order to go after Trump. Were Manafort's crimes related to Russian collusion? Nope. But they went after him anyways. So don't claim that there were any limitations. Do you think they would have stopped if Belarus or North Korea or Myanmar were implicated in internet advertising activities that were pro-Trump? Nope.


Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #821 on: May 22, 2020, 01:05:08 pm »
Can you just be Bipolar online? That’s what Marty/Steels is. The compulsion he has to take a contrary view that lacks facts or evidence whilst trying to oppose your view using the same tactics. He is the Trump of this forum.
You're making the false assumption that your view is standard and mine is contrarian.


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #822 on: May 22, 2020, 01:55:17 pm »
That's the whole damn point. It didn't do any of that. It could have attempted to. It could have put everything into context so that people could realize how utterly insignificant all of it was. Instead they packaged and presented it as some sort of evidence of major electoral disruption by the Russians, which it wasn't. THAT is the problem- LIES OF OMISSION. It wasn't concerned with the truth, it was concerned with going after Trump in any way possible, but they just couldn't find the evidence to back it up.

Again: That's like the most basic damn question- Who else was interfering and why aren't we investigating them? Why was that question never asked by the Mueller Investigation?

And "Well that wasn't what they were tasked with" B.S. That investigation went wherever they thought they could go in order to go after Trump. Were Manafort's crimes related to Russian collusion? Nope. But they went after him anyways. So don't claim that there were any limitations. Do you think they would have stopped if Belarus or North Korea or Myanmar were implicated in internet advertising activities that were pro-Trump? Nope.

So what were they supposed to do after uncovering the extent of Manafort's criminality? Just let it go? Don't forget that Manafort was working - illegally - as a proxy agent of Ukraine's Kremlin-funded Party of Regions while serving as Trump's campaign chair. Do you think it was wrong for the FBI to investigate him?

It seems like you're upset that the investigation wasn't tailored to your personal preferences. Have you considered that its format, scope and style were consistent with the expectations of more experienced people within the Department of Justice and US Congress?


Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #823 on: May 22, 2020, 03:17:14 pm »
Of course they should prosecute, but surely in all their digging, they would have reason to start going in other directions. Manafort was linked to Tony Podesta, but that wasn't as vigorously pursued. I'm sure that if he got the Flynn treatment, things might have gone differently.

The scope of the investigation was to investigate foreign interference in the 2016 election and possible collusion. If it REALLY was about foreign interference they would have looked at China, Israel and the Saudis. YOU KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T DO THAT. Don't pretend not to and don't ugnore it.

The reason the scope was what it was, was because this wasn't about the truth or protecting America, it was a political hatchet job. Same as BENGHAZI!!!!!

Let's agree on some things:
1. The Mueller Report was selective about which foreign election interference it chose to investigate
2. The Mueller Report chose not to provide any context or scale to its reports of Russian interference.

Why was this the case? Does this sound like a competently run investigation? If you were independent and in charge and wanted the truth, would you be satisifed with an end product that was arbitrary with what it chose to investigate and provided zero context? No, you would fire them for being incompetent and wasting your time and money.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 03:20:49 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #824 on: May 22, 2020, 03:35:25 pm »
Quote
The scope of the investigation was to investigate foreign interference in the 2016 election and possible collusion. If it REALLY was about foreign interference they would have looked at China, Israel and the Saudis.


"The order appointing the Special Counsel authorized him to investigate 'the Russian government’s efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election,' including any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign."

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf


Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #825 on: May 22, 2020, 04:45:47 pm »

"The order appointing the Special Counsel authorized him to investigate 'the Russian government’s efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election,' including any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign."

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf
Then why dig into Flynn and Manafort which had nothing to do with Russia but with Ukraine and Turkey?

Also, would it be fair to investigate Trump for Russian interference while ignoring interference from other countries that might have benefitted his opponent? Doesn't that all seem arbitrary?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 04:47:35 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #826 on: May 22, 2020, 05:12:42 pm »
Because Manafort was working on behalf of proxy Russian interests and concealing that work from the United States government? And they uncovered evidence of far-reaching criminal activity? You just said that they should have prosecuted him. I haven't followed the Flynn situation that closely so I'm not going to comment on it.

Quote
Also, would it be fair to investigate Trump for Russian interference while ignoring interference from other countries that might have benefitted his opponent? Doesn't that all seem arbitrary?

You know very well that the FBI received specific intelligence linking members of the Trump campaign to Russian attempts to influence the election, and that's what prompted this whole thing. Now, I'm aware that the quality of that intelligence is subject to debate, but for someone who demands "more context", it's weird that you're ignoring this and pretending that it was all arbitrary. Also, Trump's campaign manager literally had a side job advancing Putin's interests. If you can't understand why that might provoke some extra suspicion, I think we can just end any discussion about context.

I'm sorry that the Mueller investigation wasn't performed to the specific post-hoc standards that you have set. Again, it was probably done in a way that was more consistent with what an FBI director, attorney general and chair of a congressional intelligence committee would demand. So there may always be a mismatch between your expectations and theirs.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 06:35:17 pm by fka »


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #827 on: May 22, 2020, 06:38:10 pm »
You know very well that the FBI received specific intelligence linking members of the Trump campaign to Russian attempts to influence the election, and that's what prompted this whole thing

By specific information I assume you are referring to the Steele Dossier?

Now, I'm aware that the quality of that intelligence is subject to debate

By subject to debate are you conceding that it was a complete fabrication?
"An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock."

-Will Rogers


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #828 on: May 22, 2020, 07:14:56 pm »
Quote
By specific information I assume you are referring to the Steele Dossier?

No, that's not what prompted the investigation.

Quote
By subject to debate are you conceding that it was a complete fabrication?

What was?


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #829 on: May 22, 2020, 07:23:55 pm »
The Steele dossier was complete fiction.

If that isn’t the intelligence that you were referring to as starting this whole collusion narrative then what specific intelligence are you referring to?
"An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock."

-Will Rogers


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #830 on: May 22, 2020, 08:09:20 pm »
Because Manafort was working on behalf of proxy Russian interests and concealing that work from the United States government? And they uncovered evidence of far-reaching criminal activity? You just said that they should have prosecuted him.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that DMT has made an inconsistent argument in a political thread.
Mr. C is not a bad person, in fact is quite a good person here. One of the best people on this forum if you really look at it
-Mr.DeMartino


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #831 on: May 22, 2020, 08:15:55 pm »
Quote
The Steele dossier was complete fiction.

If that isn’t the intelligence that you were referring to as starting this whole collusion narrative then what specific intelligence are you referring to?

I'm not going to hold anyone's hand anymore. The origins of the investigation are easy to research. I don't know where you got that Steele Dossier idea from.


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #832 on: May 22, 2020, 08:17:05 pm »
The Steele dossier was complete fiction.

Where are you getting that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #833 on: May 22, 2020, 09:21:45 pm »

Not an excuse, just an observation of fact. Good job ignoring an entire posts worth of context surrounding that observation though.
 
Not a fact, in that there are real differences.

Good job trying to couch your excuse in "context."  Liberal arts college indeed.


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #834 on: May 23, 2020, 03:03:13 am »
Quote
"Trump selling 15.000 ventilators to other countries amid US corona crisis''

 ;D ;D ;D Such a great business brain!

On Tuesday, Cuomo painted a picture that was more dire: New York would need 30,000 ventilators.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 03:19:23 am by Cohort 2019 »
incumbo studiis


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #835 on: May 23, 2020, 03:06:57 am »
"According to a new Yahoo News/YouGov poll, 44 percent of Republicans believe that Bill Gates is plotting to use a mass COVID-19 vaccination campaign as a pretext to implant microchips in billions of people and monitor their movements — a widely debunked conspiracy theory with no basis in fact."

That's the GOP, the Frightened White Man's Freedom Freedom Party, for you.


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #836 on: May 23, 2020, 03:15:41 am »
LOL

I agree that Bill Gates was being a meanie during his MS-DOS days but that?

Hilarious hillbillies!
incumbo studiis


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #837 on: May 23, 2020, 08:43:55 am »
So we've established that the scope of the Russia investigation was too wide and too narrow. It was a political hatchet job against Trump that didn't bring any charges against Trump, but did result in the conviction of someone who "should have been prosecuted." The investigators were biased but the report suffered from a lack of editorializing. Insinuations of crime are bad if performed through "lies of omission" in an official investigation, while direct false accusations are excusable if done frequently and in a stream-of-consciousness style. People who don't acknowledge the John le Carre-meets-Noam Chomsky realities of geopolitical subterfuge are hopelessly naive, while FBI agents probing Paul Manafort's Ukraine/Kremlin ties were being profoundly unfair.

Got it.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 08:50:11 am by fka »


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Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #838 on: May 24, 2020, 02:25:16 am »
The great deal maker at work again:

"The signatories of the Open Skies treaty include most of America's NATO allies—and Ukraine. Konovalov explained that the termination of the treaty wouldn’t impact Russia, while at the same time it would harm NATO, Europe, and especially those countries on Russia's borders: the Baltic States and Ukraine. “They are losing much more," he said. "Ukraine participated in these flights since 2014. In spite of all of our disagreements and confrontations, Ukrainian officers and inspectors were allowed to enter our airspace along with Americans." America's allies "are losing because of this, the Europeans are losing.”

Political scientist Vladimir Kornilov pointed out: “Trump is convinced this is a bilateral agreement, he isn’t even thinking about other countries involved. It’s funny.”
Americans are dying and trump's sightseeing and playing golf.


Re: Trump will win in 2020
« Reply #839 on: May 24, 2020, 09:53:27 am »
"According to a new Yahoo News/YouGov poll, 44 percent of Republicans believe that Bill Gates is plotting to use a mass COVID-19 vaccination campaign as a pretext to implant microchips in billions of people and monitor their movements — a widely debunked conspiracy theory with no basis in fact."

That's the GOP, the Frightened White Man's Freedom Freedom Party, for you.
Those people are idiots. They already carry a tracking device in their pocket every minute of every day.