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  • SPQR
  • Veteran

    • 213

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
I don't know if any of you have ever met Michael Spavor, but he used to work
in Korea and then started doing tourist/cultural things in North Korea.  I met
him a few times in South Korea.

He was arrested by Chinese police in December for "spying" and hasn't been
heard of since.  We were Facebook friends, but now his Facebook page is gone.
He was visible on Facebook in December, but he has gone dark.

Did the Chinese police "obtain" his Facebook login/password and then delete
his account?

Weird stuff.  Did anybody else here know him?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 08:39:33 pm by SPQR »


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1796

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2019, 09:33:19 pm »
I don't know if any of you have ever met Michael Spavor, but he used to work
in Korea and then started doing tourist/cultural things in North Korea.  I met
him a few times in South Korea.

He was arrested by Chinese police in December for "spying" and hasn't been
heard of since.  We were Facebook friends, but now his Facebook page is gone.
He was visible on Facebook in December, but he has gone dark.

Did the Chinese police "obtain" his Facebook login/password and then delete
his account?

Weird stuff.  Did anybody else here know him?

Didn't know the guy, but this is why, IMHO, it's pretty damn silly for any westerners to be visiting China right now.
Winnie is pushing China to return to the mentality of the cultural revolution and Westerners are always at the mercy of the "spy charges" should the government require a political bargaining chip.


  • m.corless
  • Super Waygook

    • 258

    • August 30, 2011, 02:55:14 pm
    • Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 01:53:18 am »
His story has been all over Canadian news outlets lately because he and another man have been detained for months but the charges were just announced last week.
Something about "stealing state secrets" so I'm sure people close to him wanted his social media unavailable just in case it can be used against him. Though I don't know if China even cares about evidence in their judicial process.


  • T_Rex
  • Adventurer

    • 57

    • April 23, 2019, 08:10:20 am
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 07:58:19 am »
He was Dennis Rodman's tour guide in North Korea. His arrest appears to be retaliation against Canada for arresting Huawei's CFO.

Does rule of law exist in China? An Australian has been barred from leaving China. He was accused of not repaying a debt of about $40,000 in USD. He was never given a chance to defend himself in court. He was never even informed of the case against him.  The judge just believed what his Chinese accuser claimed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5070

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu Province, Taiwan
    more
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 10:18:05 am »
Sad to say things aren't going to get any better for foreigners in China. Winnie the Pooh is completely paranoid and this whole US trade war and now Google pulling the rug out under Huawei's feet does not bode well for foreigners.

I am hoping the trade war and now Huawei will mean the end of him, I have heard he has a lot of unhappy people in the CCP in that he hasn't resolved the trade war. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of that raving lunatic.

I have said before, I am no fan of Trump but he is 100% correct in taking on this mad dictator.

If I was a Canadian I would be on the first plane out.
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1796

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 11:18:34 am »
Sad to say things aren't going to get any better for foreigners in China. Winnie the Pooh is completely paranoid and this whole US trade war and now Google pulling the rug out under Huawei's feet does not bode well for foreigners.

I am hoping the trade war and now Huawei will mean the end of him, I have heard he has a lot of unhappy people in the CCP in that he hasn't resolved the trade war. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of that raving lunatic.

I have said before, I am no fan of Trump but he is 100% correct in taking on this mad dictator.

If I was a Canadian I would be on the first plane out.

I agree, no Trump fan either, but at least he's crazy/ballsy/stupid enough to not back down to that evil regime.

My only worry is the effect it's having on the Korean won.


  • thunderlips
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1536

    • June 07, 2012, 10:01:55 am
    • South Korea
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 12:07:54 pm »
Sad to say things aren't going to get any better for foreigners in China. Winnie the Pooh is completely paranoid and this whole US trade war and now Google pulling the rug out under Huawei's feet does not bode well for foreigners.

I am hoping the trade war and now Huawei will mean the end of him, I have heard he has a lot of unhappy people in the CCP in that he hasn't resolved the trade war. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of that raving lunatic.

I have said before, I am no fan of Trump but he is 100% correct in taking on this mad dictator.

If I was a Canadian I would be on the first plane out.

I agree, no Trump fan either, but at least he's crazy/ballsy/stupid enough to not back down to that evil regime.

My only worry is the effect it's having on the Korean won.

My hope is that China decides to sell the US debt at a loss thereby lowering the dollar which may create a small window in which the Korean won gets stronger against the dollar. I also realize this isn’t likely to happen.


  • Nokcha
  • Super Waygook

    • 314

    • August 22, 2012, 02:37:27 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 02:13:28 pm »
I have met him.  Some friends of his here started a Gofund Me account to help with expenses as he will have lost his business and may not have anything to fall back on when he is freed. Assuming of course.......



Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 05:58:15 pm »
There is a documentary about trumps trade war here which I enjoyed

https://youtu.be/4_xQ5JisFuo


Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 07:06:07 pm »
China has been ruled by tyrants for thousands of years, they wrote the book on this shit. It's why other Asian countries like South Korea and Japan have laws which are only suggestions and aren't enforced, but suddenly become enforced when the emperor wants to make an example of an undesirable dissident or foreigner. And it's why Asian governments act so illogically--they think they are being clever by acting erratic. But at least South Korea and Japan aren't dictatorships.

Any Westerner who goes to live in China is a fool, you might think you are living the high life being a parasite on a massive economic bubble, but you're always at the mercy of a dictatorial legal system not in your own language. Once you stop being valuable to them you will be treated like trash.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • pkjh
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1540

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 09:54:33 pm »
China has been ruled by tyrants for thousands of years, they wrote the book on this shit.
And up to about 100 years ago Europe was the same. Except they managed to colonize most of the world for their own economic exploitation.

Anyways, that Bannon guy seems like a nutbar.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3721

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 12:02:24 am »
Sad to say things aren't going to get any better for foreigners in China. Winnie the Pooh is completely paranoid and this whole US trade war and now Google pulling the rug out under Huawei's feet does not bode well for foreigners.

I am hoping the trade war and now Huawei will mean the end of him, I have heard he has a lot of unhappy people in the CCP in that he hasn't resolved the trade war. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of that raving lunatic.

I have said before, I am no fan of Trump but he is 100% correct in taking on this mad dictator.

If I was a Canadian I would be on the first plane out.
It's wishful thinking to hope a trade war with the US is going to weaken the CCP and lead to regime change, as Wilbur Ross has actually suggested.  It could lead to China playing fair(er) regarding trade, but that's what the TTP was designed to accomplish without a trade war and the resulting suffering.


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5070

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu Province, Taiwan
    more
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 06:02:55 am »
It's wishful thinking to hope a trade war with the US is going to weaken the CCP and lead to regime change, as Wilbur Ross has actually suggested.  It could lead to China playing fair(er) regarding trade, but that's what the TTP was designed to accomplish without a trade war and the resulting suffering.

I don't think it will result in a regime change, just a leadership change. Winnie the Pooh has made himself president (dictator) for life by changing the constitution and 'eliminating' many of his opponents for 'fraud'.

He needs to be replaced by a less radical person at least. Democracy for China........ well that is a long time coming, they are too indoctrinated to stand up against the CCP and until the present generation see through him and want  democracy badly enough, the CCP is not going anywhere.
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1796

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2019, 10:54:38 am »
It's wishful thinking to hope a trade war with the US is going to weaken the CCP and lead to regime change, as Wilbur Ross has actually suggested.  It could lead to China playing fair(er) regarding trade, but that's what the TTP was designed to accomplish without a trade war and the resulting suffering.

I don't think it will result in a regime change, just a leadership change. Winnie the Pooh has made himself president (dictator) for life by changing the constitution and 'eliminating' many of his opponents for 'fraud'.

He needs to be replaced by a less radical person at least. Democracy for China........ well that is a long time coming, they are too indoctrinated to stand up against the CCP and until the present generation see through him and want  democracy badly enough, the CCP is not going anywhere.

I wouldn't be so sure.

In 1989, the Chinese youth showed what they were willing to do to bring about Democracy. That anger hasn't gone anywhere, it's been masked by fear, ignorance and distractions. While Chinese citizens are ridiculously indoctrinated, there are some major warning signs which no amount of indoctrination can charm away:

The economy
Chinese citizens seem to have happily traded their freedoms as long as the economy keeps doing well. When your economy is kept afloat by artificial means and phony figures, it's definitely not sustainable.

The birth rate
It's bad and if things keep going the way they are, the near future looks catastrophic.

The housing bubble
Again, the artificial economy at work. That bubble is going to burst and boy is it going to be bad.

Taiwan and Hong Kong
Mainly Taiwan, they're showing Chinese citizens what the mainland could be like with Democracy. The CCP is terrified of this ideological threat.

The CCP's entire ideology is built on deception, deceit, hard power and extreme short-term solutions. Patching up only works for so long and once that economy comes crashing down, Chinese citizens will be a lot harder to control and oppress.
 


  • kangsheng
  • Adventurer

    • 28

    • November 26, 2017, 01:02:06 am
    • Yongin
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 11:12:32 am »
Nice analysis Aristocrat. I hope you're right.


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5070

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu Province, Taiwan
    more
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2019, 12:27:25 pm »
Aristocat we all hope for what you have said but having lived there for two years I can tell you the CCP has made massive inroads into the youth by indoctrination.

Only the ones that have been abroad are starting to not like them but the vast majority of the Chinese people haven't been abroad and can't go abroad, so they are quite happy with the status quo and won't rock the boat at all. I used to teach very liberal adults and they bitched and moaned about the CCP and when I asked them why they don't do something, they just said there is nothing we can do, so they just accept it.

Indoctrination starts at elementary school and goes into universities where all freshmen do one month of military training which is mostly CCP indoctrination.  ALL businesses owned by the state have to let their employees attend indoctrination courses once a month.

The new national credit system keeps them under constant surveillance and should they not do what the CCP likes, they are banned from travel outside their city/town or if they are  dissident enough they simply join the organ harvesting industry.

I wish the Chinese people would rise up but after having lived there, it is highly unlikely to happen.
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2019, 03:19:54 pm »
Only the ones that have been abroad are starting to not like them but the vast majority of the Chinese people haven't been abroad and can't go abroad, so they are quite happy with the status quo and won't rock the boat at all. I used to teach very liberal adults and they bitched and moaned about the CCP and when I asked them why they don't do something, they just said there is nothing we can do, so they just accept it.
When a country has both reasonable upward mobility AND extremely powerful state control, people will complain but not do anything. The gains they might enjoy are not enough to compensate for the massive risk (You and your family being "evacuated"). Not much just to gain one other choice, who they'll end up bitching and moaning about anyways, which is what democracy offers. That and the freedom to say what you want and merely lose your job rather than being evacuated.

If you want them to overthrow the system, you basically have to do one of two things- Make things so unpalatable for the globalists and industrialists that they move against the powers that be OR make things so bad for the ordinary people that they move against the powers that be.

The CCP's entire ideology is built on deception, deceit, hard power and extreme short-term solutions.
Any country where the powers that be are corporations that rely on marketing and returns to shareholders are going to be built on deceit and short-term solutions. I'm not sure how much of China is publicly traded, but if that ever reaches a critical mass, the CCP will change to reflect that.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 08:19:55 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5070

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu Province, Taiwan
    more
Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2019, 07:13:26 pm »
Only the ones that have been abroad are starting to not like them but the vast majority of the Chinese people haven't been abroad and can't go abroad, so they are quite happy with the status quo and won't rock the boat at all. I used to teach very liberal adults and they bitched and moaned about the CCP and when I asked them why they don't do something, they just said there is nothing we can do, so they just accept it.
When a country has both reasonable upward mobility AND extremely powerful state control, people will complain but not do anything. The gains they might enjoy are not enough to compensate for the massive risk (You and your family being "evacuated"). Not much just to gain one other choice, who they'll end up bitching and moaning about anyways, which is what democracy offers. That and the freedom to say what you want and merely lose your job rather than being evacuated.

If you want them to overthrow the system, you basically have to do one of two things- Make things so unpalatable for the globalists and industrialists that they move against the powers that be OR make things so bad for the ordinary people that they move against the powers that be.

The CCP's entire ideology is built on deception, deceit, hard power and extreme short-term solutions.
Any country where the powers that be are corporations that rely on marketing and returns to shareholders are going to be built on deceit and short-term solutions. I'm not sure how of China is publicly traded, but if that ever reaches a critical mass, the CCP will change to reflect that.


Yep, China is screwed for the foreseeable future .
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 05:26:29 am »
China is starting to export its nationalist BS to other countries. It cries and whines when it gets called out, yet it chooses to be hostile to Western democracies and chooses to make Chinese businesses into loyal weapons of the government.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/world/australia/australia-china.html

Quote
SYDNEY, Australia — In a gold-curtained meeting room in Sydney, the Chinese consul general appealed to a closed-door gathering of about 100 people, all of them Australian residents and citizens of Chinese ancestry.

He called on the group to help shape public opinion during a coming visit of China’s prime minister, Li Keqiang, in part by reporting critics to the consulate. Rallies in support of China should be coordinated, he suggested, and large banners should be unfurled to block images of protests against Beijing.

“We are not troops, but this task is a bit like the nature of troops,” said the diplomat, Gu Xiaojie, according to a recording of the session in the consulate obtained by The New York Times and verified by a person who was in the room. “This is a war,” he added, “with lots of battles.”

The previously unreported meeting in March 2017 is an example of how the Chinese government directly — and often secretly — engages in political activity in Australia, making the nation a laboratory for testing how far it can go to steer debate and influence policy inside a democratic trade partner.

It is a calculated campaign unlike any other Australia has faced — taking advantage of the nation’s openness, growing ethnic Chinese population and economic ties to China — and it has provoked an uncomfortable debate about how Australia should respond.

Many countries face the same challenge from China, an authoritarian power pushing its agenda inside and beyond its borders.

In Asia, China has been accused of funneling funds to the campaigns of preferred candidates in Malaysia and Sri Lanka. In the United States, there is concern about Beijing’s efforts to stifle dissent on college campuses. And in Europe, Chinese companies and organizations tied to the ruling Communist Party have held events for political leaders and donated millions of dollars to universities.

China once sought to spread Marxist revolution around the world, but its goal now is more subtle — winning support for a trade and foreign policy agenda intended to boost its geopolitical standing and maintain its monopoly on power at home.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: Ex-teacher who worked in Korea charged with spying in China
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2019, 05:31:18 am »
China has been ruled by tyrants for thousands of years, they wrote the book on this shit.
And up to about 100 years ago Europe was the same. Except they managed to colonize most of the world for their own economic exploitation.

Anyways, that Bannon guy seems like a nutbar.

Wow that is some potent Asian whataboutism. Did you just discover Marx or something? Asian legal systems were created to allow an Emperor to control his subjects, not to protect the people. It's not so harsh today in a country like Korea but you still have laws that aren't enforced until someone needs to be made an example of. British common law was created to protect the rights of the aristocracy from the King, and these rights were eventually given to the entire population. Laws are enforced to a fault but at least they're usually consistent, except when someone like Trump controls the legal system and fucks everything up to protect himself.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit