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  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 612

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« on: May 19, 2019, 01:18:23 pm »
...still hoping the U.S. wakes up one day  and tells S.K. to handle its own business. 


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/korea-watch/south-korea-probably-doesn%E2%80%99t-us-too-much-%E2%80%99s-just-not-correct-57917

Quote
South Korea 'Probably Doesn’t Like Us Too Much'? That’s Just Not Correct.

Trump is wrong about the value of the Washington-Seoul alliance.
by Thomas Byrne

At a political rally in Florida on May 8, President Donald Trump went on a riff about an unnamed country—clearly South Korea—that he believes does not adequately share in the costs of its military alliance with the United States.

The quote: “[We] lose $4.5 billion to defend a country that’s rich as hell, and probably doesn’t like us too much. Can you believe it?”

Leaving aside a debate on the merits of the $4.5 billion figure—which s expansive, imputing expenditures for offshore military assets not based on Korean soil—the notion that South Korea is somehow a free rider on the U.S. military presence on the Korean peninsula, where 28,500 American soldiers are stationed, dates back to Trump’s 2016 campaign. South Korea now pays about half the cost of hosting U.S. troops on its soil and it does not charge the U.S. Army rent.

This arrangement is mutually agreed upon and has been renegotiated on a multi-year basis—until this year’s which lasts for only one year. Renewal will be contentious because of the Trump’s administration’s expansive view of burden sharing, but it should take into account South Korea’s contribution of more than 90 percent of the nearly $11 billion cost to expand Camp Humphreys—the largest overseas U.S. military base. It should also be mentioned that the U.S.-South Korean alliance plays an indispensable role in maintaining peace in Northeast Asia. That peace accrues enormous economic and security benefits to the United States itself.

What is more surprising than the reemergence of this free-rider theme (it never really went away) is the statement that South Korea “probably doesn’t like us very much.” This is not just incorrect; it is ahistorical.

Since the armistice that halted hostilities in the Korean War nearly sixty-six years ago in July 1953, the two allies have developed a deep and enduring partnership. It is one of the closest and most strategically important of any that the United States maintains. There is a strong sense in both countries of shared values and appreciation for their mutual prosperity.

In particular, support from the Korean people for the U.S. military presence remains high. The Asan Institute and the Council on Foreign Relations conducted a joint survey of Korean attitudes in January 2019 that showed continued strong backing across every cohort within Korean society for U.S. Forces Korea (USFK) as “a reliable partner in assuring South Korea’s security.” Three out of five surveyed said the continued USFK presence on the peninsula does not threaten peace negotiations with North Korea. A majority of South Koreans even think that current USFK levels should be maintained for the time being.

More generally, polls have shown that the populations of the two countries are among the most mutually-admiring in the world. In 2017 the Pew Research Center found that 86 percent of South Koreans had a favorable view of the American people, tied with Vietnam for the foreign populace with the highest opinion of Americans. Interestingly, that is the same percentage of U.S. responders who viewed their own fellow citizens favorably.

On the economic front, South Korea’s extraordinary postwar renaissance has seen it develop into the world’s eleventh largest economy and America’s sixth-largest goods trading partner, although its per capita income is only about half that of America, so not quite “as rich as hell.”
 

Nonetheless, South Korea’s globally competitive companies pay dividends for the United States in a multitude of ways. For example, according to the U.S. State Department, South Korean foreign direct investment in the United States has nearly doubled since 2011 from $19.7 billion to $38.8 billion in 2016, making the Republic of Korea the second largest Asian source of FDI into the United States. And just last week Lotte Chemicals opened a $3.1 billion complex in Louisiana, which that state’s Economic Development office estimates will result in more than 2,500 local jobs.

Similarly, people-to-people ties between the United States and South Korea are strong. One clear indicator is the esteem with which South Koreans view the U.S. system of higher education, whose tuition supports the finances of U.S. colleges and universities. According to State, South Korea is a top three origin country in absolute terms for international students attending U.S. colleges and universities.
 

There is no question as to whether South Koreans “like us.” They do.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:46:52 pm by NorthStar »


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4118

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 09:48:27 pm »
Politicians these says are looking to build their base by dividing rather than uniting.

Putting “others” in a negative light is part of the process used by both ends of the spectrum.

The “big tent” idea isn’t resonating these days.


Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2019, 09:26:32 am »
There is a very deep anti-American sentiment in Korea that has been around since the Korean War, because a lot of South Koreans would apparently rather have been killed/jailed/zombified by North Korea and China than saved by America and helped to become a wealthy and successful nation. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes living in South Korea knows the depths of Korean xenophobia, and the fact that Moon Jae-in's party is based on xenophobic nationalism.

A lot of it is just posturing to make Koreans feel better about being a small country, but it's still there. It's nowhere as bad as anti-Japanese sentiment though. There's a lot of sneaky anti-Chinese sentiment too, and every once in a while you get weird anti-European sentiment when Korean businesses feel afraid about European businesses moving in on their turf. Sometimes you even get weird antisemitism.

https://observer.com/2015/07/spat-between-samsung-and-nyc-hedge-fund-takes-nasty-detour-into-jew-baiting/
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • pkjh
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1548

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2019, 10:20:20 am »
There is a very deep anti-American sentiment in Korea that has been around since the Korean War, because a lot of South Koreans would apparently rather have been killed/jailed/zombified by North Korea and China than saved by America and helped to become a wealthy and successful nation. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes living in South Korea knows the depths of Korean xenophobia, and the fact that Moon Jae-in's party is based on xenophobic nationalism.

A lot of it is just posturing to make Koreans feel better about being a small country, but it's still there. It's nowhere as bad as anti-Japanese sentiment though. There's a lot of sneaky anti-Chinese sentiment too, and every once in a while you get weird anti-European sentiment when Korean businesses feel afraid about European businesses moving in on their turf. Sometimes you even get weird antisemitism.

https://observer.com/2015/07/spat-between-samsung-and-nyc-hedge-fund-takes-nasty-detour-into-jew-baiting/
It's a survival mechanism. If it weren't for xenophobia, Korea would have been swallowed up by China  a long, long, long time ago. Waves of Chinese have immigrated into the Korean peninsula for the last few thousands of years, yet somehow they've been assimilated by the local population, despite having the Chinese military make their way onto the peninsula numerous amount of times.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2786

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2019, 10:45:54 am »
There is a very deep anti-American sentiment in Korea that has been around since the Korean War, because a lot of South Koreans would apparently rather have been killed/jailed/zombified by North Korea and China than saved by America and helped to become a wealthy and successful nation. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes living in South Korea knows the depths of Korean xenophobia, and the fact that Moon Jae-in's party is based on xenophobic nationalism.

A lot of it is just posturing to make Koreans feel better about being a small country, but it's still there. It's nowhere as bad as anti-Japanese sentiment though. There's a lot of sneaky anti-Chinese sentiment too, and every once in a while you get weird anti-European sentiment when Korean businesses feel afraid about European businesses moving in on their turf. Sometimes you even get weird antisemitism.

https://observer.com/2015/07/spat-between-samsung-and-nyc-hedge-fund-takes-nasty-detour-into-jew-baiting/
It's a survival mechanism. If it weren't for xenophobia, Korea would have been swallowed up by China  a long, long, long time ago. Waves of Chinese have immigrated into the Korean peninsula for the last few thousands of years, yet somehow they've been assimilated by the local population, despite having the Chinese military make their way onto the peninsula numerous amount of times.
You know who else went through the same thing? Almost every place else.

But I like your near memorization of the party line.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • pkjh
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1548

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2019, 12:13:19 pm »
There is a very deep anti-American sentiment in Korea that has been around since the Korean War, because a lot of South Koreans would apparently rather have been killed/jailed/zombified by North Korea and China than saved by America and helped to become a wealthy and successful nation. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes living in South Korea knows the depths of Korean xenophobia, and the fact that Moon Jae-in's party is based on xenophobic nationalism.

A lot of it is just posturing to make Koreans feel better about being a small country, but it's still there. It's nowhere as bad as anti-Japanese sentiment though. There's a lot of sneaky anti-Chinese sentiment too, and every once in a while you get weird anti-European sentiment when Korean businesses feel afraid about European businesses moving in on their turf. Sometimes you even get weird antisemitism.

https://observer.com/2015/07/spat-between-samsung-and-nyc-hedge-fund-takes-nasty-detour-into-jew-baiting/
It's a survival mechanism. If it weren't for xenophobia, Korea would have been swallowed up by China  a long, long, long time ago. Waves of Chinese have immigrated into the Korean peninsula for the last few thousands of years, yet somehow they've been assimilated by the local population, despite having the Chinese military make their way onto the peninsula numerous amount of times.
You know who else went through the same thing? Almost every place else.

But I like your near memorization of the party line.
Really? Can you say that about the vast Russian territories east of the Ural mountains they used to be only populated by nomadic mongolioid type of people. Or the Okinawans? The Manchurians? The Basque? American natives? All have had their language, and cultures greatly affected.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2786

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2019, 12:50:46 pm »
There is a very deep anti-American sentiment in Korea that has been around since the Korean War, because a lot of South Koreans would apparently rather have been killed/jailed/zombified by North Korea and China than saved by America and helped to become a wealthy and successful nation. Anyone who has spent 5 minutes living in South Korea knows the depths of Korean xenophobia, and the fact that Moon Jae-in's party is based on xenophobic nationalism.

A lot of it is just posturing to make Koreans feel better about being a small country, but it's still there. It's nowhere as bad as anti-Japanese sentiment though. There's a lot of sneaky anti-Chinese sentiment too, and every once in a while you get weird anti-European sentiment when Korean businesses feel afraid about European businesses moving in on their turf. Sometimes you even get weird antisemitism.

https://observer.com/2015/07/spat-between-samsung-and-nyc-hedge-fund-takes-nasty-detour-into-jew-baiting/
It's a survival mechanism. If it weren't for xenophobia, Korea would have been swallowed up by China  a long, long, long time ago. Waves of Chinese have immigrated into the Korean peninsula for the last few thousands of years, yet somehow they've been assimilated by the local population, despite having the Chinese military make their way onto the peninsula numerous amount of times.
You know who else went through the same thing? Almost every place else.

But I like your near memorization of the party line.
Really? Can you say that about the vast Russian territories east of the Ural mountains they used to be only populated by nomadic mongolioid type of people. Or the Okinawans? The Manchurians? The Basque? American natives? All have had their language, and cultures greatly affected.
I'm talking about trying explain away their xenophobia with "oh that's just because of....history". Plenty of places have had similar histories without feeling the need to cling to xenophobia. Also Korean culture as it stands is not some static entity that survived 4000 untouched. It has absorbed, adapted and changed with each subsequent historical era. Look out the window and see how many English language signs you see. You don't think Korea wasn't "greatly affected" by China in all of it's forms. It used it's writing system for the majority of Korean history, adopted it's philosophical theories wholesale (Confucianism)  as well as Buddhism via China. and countless numbers of other things. Just because they Chinese isn't spoken doesn't mean that Korea was unaffected.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1232

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2019, 01:08:11 pm »
A big change from 10 years ago.  Many Koreans hated foreigners and white people 10 years ago.  The media ran fake news stories about us quite often. 


Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2019, 02:51:16 pm »
I'm talking about trying explain away their xenophobia with "oh that's just because of....history". Plenty of places have had similar histories without feeling the need to cling to xenophobia. Also Korean culture as it stands is not some static entity that survived 4000 untouched. It has absorbed, adapted and changed with each subsequent historical era. Look out the window and see how many English language signs you see. You don't think Korea wasn't "greatly affected" by China in all of it's forms. It used it's writing system for the majority of Korean history, adopted it's philosophical theories wholesale (Confucianism)  as well as Buddhism via China. and countless numbers of other things. Just because they Chinese isn't spoken doesn't mean that Korea was unaffected.

There's definitely some truth in what you're saying. Most of what you've written is spot on.

However, in many of these places around the world where we wonder "Why don't they just move on?" People seem to forget that long after we're gone, the assholes nextdoor they've been dealing with for 2000 years will still be there, and that's something we have to recognize. Do you really think the Japanese are going to be some lovy-dovy peaceniks for all eternity and that they embrace global equality? That leaves the Chinese and the Russians, countries with inconsistent at best histories.

We also have to not get caught up in "Change now instantly to make me happy". Korea isn't a monolith and neither are its people. Change takes time. Look at the rest of the world, they still are dealing with all of these issues as well.

A big change from 10 years ago.  Many Koreans hated foreigners and white people 10 years ago.  The media ran fake news stories about us quite often. 
Yes there were sensationalist stories about foreigners. How many positive ones were there? Plenty. I think even back then, the number of positive ones far outweighed the negative. We just have a negativity bias, same as they do at times.

Also, we aren't owed love and a constant stream of positive stories and no negative ones.


  • pkjh
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1548

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2019, 02:59:25 pm »
Plenty of places have had similar histories without feeling the need to cling to xenophobia.
Outside, of essentially, the Americas (and perhaps Australia, and New Zealand), tell me a place that doesn't cling to xenophobia? You may think that western Europe doesn't, but that's just their governments forcing immigration down their throats. There is a significant part of western Europe's populations that are xenophobic, and would love to see a purge in their respective countries, even though most of their non-native populations is well under 10%.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2786

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2019, 03:52:19 pm »
Plenty of places have had similar histories without feeling the need to cling to xenophobia.
Outside, of essentially, the Americas (and perhaps Australia, and New Zealand), tell me a place that doesn't cling to xenophobia? You may think that western Europe doesn't, but that's just their governments forcing immigration down their throats. There is a significant part of western Europe's populations that are xenophobic, and would love to see a purge in their respective countries, even though most of their non-native populations is well under 10%.
Actually, you are right. I won't argue that. It was more the talking point that I hear from Koreans that they have a right to be xenophobic due to their history. When countless other nations experienced just as many invasions, occupations etc. yet you don't hear people trying to explain away Polish xenophobia with the same rationale/
Also I'll add to that, that Korea's foreign population is somewhere between 2-4% of the population, of which a large proportion are Chinese ethnic Koreans or assorted gyopos. If Korea was to suddenly have foreign proportion similar to some places in Europe, it would be very interesting to see how much the xenophobia would ramp up.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2786

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Apparently, South Koreans REALLY like Americans...
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 03:58:27 pm »
I'm talking about trying explain away their xenophobia with "oh that's just because of....history". Plenty of places have had similar histories without feeling the need to cling to xenophobia. Also Korean culture as it stands is not some static entity that survived 4000 untouched. It has absorbed, adapted and changed with each subsequent historical era. Look out the window and see how many English language signs you see. You don't think Korea wasn't "greatly affected" by China in all of it's forms. It used it's writing system for the majority of Korean history, adopted it's philosophical theories wholesale (Confucianism)  as well as Buddhism via China. and countless numbers of other things. Just because they Chinese isn't spoken doesn't mean that Korea was unaffected.

There's definitely some truth in what you're saying. Most of what you've written is spot on.

However, in many of these places around the world where we wonder "Why don't they just move on?" People seem to forget that long after we're gone, the assholes nextdoor they've been dealing with for 2000 years will still be there, and that's something we have to recognize. Do you really think the Japanese are going to be some lovy-dovy peaceniks for all eternity and that they embrace global equality? That leaves the Chinese and the Russians, countries with inconsistent at best histories.

We also have to not get caught up in "Change now instantly to make me happy". Korea isn't a monolith and neither are its people. Change takes time. Look at the rest of the world, they still are dealing with all of these issues as well.
To be honest, in my limited personal experience I have never really found Korea to be that xenophobic. Most things that do seem anti-foreigner are often the result of a bureaucratic system that is completely ill equipped to deal with non-Koreans eg some people trying to register non Korean baby names and being told them cant because the computer system cant input more than a certain amount of characters.

Or trying to accommodate foreigners but doing it in an insensitive manner eg the "foreigner only" section that they advertised with much fanfare at Haeundae beach a few years ago.

But the "Our history was so bad, we had it worst so it's OK if we are xenophobic" thing annoys the shit out of me. Because it's just bad history.
Kpip! - Martin 2018