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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2019, 11:15:34 am »
Maybe the reality that Trump did not mock a reporter for being disabled?

you're too far gone down the 'hey trump was just kidding' road if you think this is acceptable for someone in his position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNXgjnBpxGI

i pity you, if you think this is ok.

That just looks like someone doing a generic thick person impression to me. However if the reporter in question talks and acts like that and Trump knew he was disabled, fair enough he's bang to rights.


  • waygo0k
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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2019, 12:07:29 pm »
It doesn't matter DM. But at least you're now admitting THERE WERE TWO SIDES. Only took a week  :laugh:

You  and Trump can try to spin it, twist it into a bow, flip it, reverse it, dunk it in tea...it doesn't matter...those "fine people" are Nazis given they knowingly marhced with Nazis to further a white supremacist agenda.

And now you're saying is...all white supremacists are racists, but not all white racists are white supremacists?

So...that lone guy, who's not part of any organisation, but nonetheless still believes in the hierarchy of races, the bell curve, mein kampf etc and lives his life according to those beliefs...is not a white nationalist?  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

And I'm the one not focusing on the core issue??? Even as you continue to twist and turn despite getting caught out over and over again?  :laugh: :laugh:


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2019, 12:27:00 pm »
you're too far gone down the 'hey trump was just kidding' road if you think this is acceptable for someone in his position.

What if I told you that Trump has used the same voice and affect when not talking about disabled reporters?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgaC0leEb68

The media never told you that, but there's a bunch of video evidence of it. Why did they leave that out? Because it added context and killed the story.

Is Trump an asshole? Yes. Did he mock a reporter for being disabled? Doesn't look like it.


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2019, 12:30:13 pm »
Quote
So...that lone guy, who's not part of any organisation, but nonetheless still believes in the hierarchy of races, the bell curve, mein kampf etc and lives his life according to those beliefs...is not a white nationalist?  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's a pretty narrow definition of a racist, in this day and age.


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2019, 12:39:07 pm »
It doesn't matter DM. But at least you're now admitting THERE WERE TWO SIDES. Only took a week  :laugh:
No I didn't say that. Your reading comprehension sucks.

There are seldom only two sides to an issue. Even WWII was not "two sides". Only a dimwit would dumb it down to the point of "Axis & Allies".

In reality the Soviets and the Western allies were fundamentally different and were NOT "On the same side" in a true sense of the word. One could even argue a split between the United States and the Western colonial powers. You had the Finns who switched sides and seemed to have little concern beyond their own independence. You had Soviet states like the Baltics who would join the Germans because they believed they represented liberation from a repressive Soviet government. You had the Quit India Movement led by Gandhi which opposed the Axis but refused to fight along the British until they gained independence.

You're doing the same thing as dumbing it down to "Axis and Allies" by saying there were only two sides and "You were either with the Nazis or against the Nazis." Just as the issue was more complicated back then, it's more complicated now.

Quote
And now you're saying is...all white supremacists are racists, but not all white racists are white supremacists?
Yes, and most academics, law enforcement and behavioral scientists would agree. White racism can be an individual organized act. It can be committed unconsciously or subconsciously. It can be committed overtly but the person, when engaged in political activity, may support measures for racial equality, even racial progress.

It's the difference between someone who says something religiously intolerant vs. a religious terrorist. It's the difference between someone who says "I believe in angels" and never goes to church vs. someone who regularly attends and is part of the religious community and structure.

I assume that if you weren't invested in winning an internet argument, but instead in an academic setting, you'd probably agree with what I wrote. However, this is the internet and you have to win, so you'll say this is wrong. Somehow.


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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2019, 03:05:53 pm »
Ooooh YOU didn't say there were two sides, you simply said Trump said there were two sides

Definition of "racism":

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles


Definition of "white supremacy":

the belief, theory, or doctrine that white people are inherently superior to people from all other racial groups, especially black people, and are therefore rightfully the dominant group in any society.

I previously said you'd spin anything to fit whatever narrative you've chosen...and here you are, spinning away. So much so that you've decided to invent your own definition of words, and boldly claimed "most academics, law enforcement and behavioral scientists would agree" without a single source...ay caramba!

There is no difference between a white supremacist/nazi or a white racist. They all believe the SAME THING, whether they are loners or part of a group - their ideology follows the same set of pathways and beliefs.


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #126 on: May 14, 2019, 03:10:55 pm »
Ooooh YOU didn't say there were two sides, you simply said Trump said there were two sides

Definition of "racism":

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles


Definition of "white supremacy":

the belief, theory, or doctrine that white people are inherently superior to people from all other racial groups, especially black people, and are therefore rightfully the dominant group in any society.

I previously said you'd spin anything to fit whatever narrative you've chosen...and here you are, spinning away. So much so that you've decided to invent your own definition of words, and boldly claimed "most academics, law enforcement and behavioral scientists would agree" without a single source...ay caramba!

There is no difference between a white supremacist/nazi or a white racist. They all believe the SAME THING, whether they are loners or part of a group - their ideology follows the same set of pathways and beliefs.

You're cherry picking definitions. The definition of racism most people go by is

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.



Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #127 on: May 14, 2019, 04:44:07 pm »
I previously said you'd spin anything to fit whatever narrative you've chosen...and here you are, spinning away. So much so that you've decided to invent your own definition of words, and boldly claimed "most academics, law enforcement and behavioral scientists would agree" without a single source...ay caramba!

There is no difference between a white supremacist/nazi or a white racist. They all believe the SAME THING, whether they are loners or part of a group - their ideology follows the same set of pathways and beliefs.
You edited out and ignored the definitions that did not apply to your interpretation.

Your own definition includes

3 :  racial prejudice or discrimination

However, racial prejudice can take place without being part of any doctrine or theory or belief structure. It can be unconscious in nature. A racist may not support a racist power structure or be concerned with their race's dominance in society. They might even believe themselves to be liberal and tolerant.

A white supremacist and a Nazi are both racists. However a white racist is not necessarily a white supremacist or a Nazi. For example, A white racist can say horrible things about say, Hispanics, and then say "One day the Chinese will rule us all." That would be white racism, but not white supremacy. It's the same principle as a rectangle and a square. A square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is not always a square.

Also, white supremacists are not Nazis and white racists can differ from both. This is as clumsy as lumping in Moqtada Al-Sadr's followers with global Jihadism. "Well they're both violent and Muslim, so they must be terrorists. Derp."

This article goes into it, though I disagree with some of its points.
http://time.com/4584161/white-supremacy/

Anyways, I don't really know why you're making such a stink over this. Yes, there are white racists who ARE white supremacists and there are white racists who ARE NOT white supremacists. Big fricking deal. Both groups suck. The only motive someone would have for not wanting to get things right is to make a political point by stretching the definition until it can encompass certain targets that they wish to classify.

There's a reason we have specific terms for specific things. It's because while one word may sort of describe something, another term describes much more precisely. Don't ignore the more precise term just for the sake of winning an argument.


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2019, 04:53:27 pm »
I know some people might think I'm being pedantic, but in cases like this it's really important to get things right. I've gotten into arguments with right-wingers when they just lumped Sadrists in with Al-Qaeda and couldn't be arsed to devote any brain cells to the differences and complexities and motivations.

I also got into this with someone who lumped white prison gangs and white gangs in general in with organized white supremacist political movements. In most cases those gangs are not motivated by any great political ideology and are instead using "White" or "Nazi" for little more than identification and shock power. They are far more concerned with their relationship with Latino gangs that supply them methamphetamine and heroin than the finer points Nazi ideology.

Why is this important? Because in order to deal with such people and rehabilitate them and debate them and so on, you first have to understand their motivation. Someone who joins an Aryan biker gang for no reason other than to avoid being gang-raped in prison and then to get drugs outside of prison IS NOT someone who is responsible for hate crimes and should not be treated as such. Someone who joins Sadr's militia to oppose the presence of American troops because their cousin was arrested by Americans is NOT the same as a global jihadist who wants to restore the Caliphate.

But if you just lump these people all together and dismiss them as scumbags, you're making the same mistake as the Bush Administration did with Iraq, only on a smaller scale and with a different group of people. You're refusing to look at the complexities of a situation and people's motives because you're more concerned with narrative and ideology rather than actually trying to make the situation better.


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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2019, 04:59:09 pm »
What do you mean I edited out or ignored the definitions that don't agree with my definition  :laugh: :laugh:

How do “racial prejudice or discrimination” disagree with FACT that white supremacists and white racists are the same thing? Do they not both believe in and practice racial prejudice/discrimination”?

Is your article supposed to be a definition from the “behavioural experts, law enforcement and academics” that supposedly agree with you?  :laugh: :laugh:

This particularly pathetic excuse of an article article that starts off by erroneously claiming Ta-Nehisi Coates called Bernie a white supremacist??  :laugh: :laugh:

This is your source?? This????  :laugh:

It’s almost as if you googled the difference between white supremacy and racism and quickly posted the first article you saw.

And you’re here lecturing us about the importance of not erroneously lumping shit together!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 05:24:05 pm by waygo0k »


  • SanderB
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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #130 on: May 15, 2019, 12:33:18 am »
Marty! Please, we want to like you!
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 03:00:02 am by SanderB »
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #131 on: May 15, 2019, 01:45:30 pm »
Make America Great Again

that means, the assumption is that America was great BEFORE 2016
like Trump talks about...in the past...

Well, in America, in the past...there was....slavery. genocide. land theft. denying of basic rights to persons of color and women.
denying of civil and voting rights to persons of color and women. A lot of presidents, politicians and other authority figures who
owned slaves.

So the "Make America Great Again"...implying that America was GREAT while all those horrific things were happening...is inherently racist.
And anyone who wants to wear that slogan on their head proudly...must be okay with that.

all there is to it

Fabulous. University education, you can't beat it.


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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2019, 02:05:18 pm »
MAGA=1800s and 1950s.

What if they wanted the economic boom of the 80s?

What if they saw America in the tech boom age and want that again?

"America isn't all it could be, like it was in TIME PERIOD X"

Oh, so you like slavery??

I SMELL A STRAWMAN
The joys of fauxtherhood


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #133 on: May 15, 2019, 02:09:29 pm »
MAGA=1800s and 1950s.

What if they wanted the economic boom of the 80s?

What if they saw America in the tech boom age and want that again?

"America isn't all it could be, like it was in TIME PERIOD X"

Oh, so you like slavery??



I SMELL A STRAWMAN

I just got a nasty, racist PM off this guy so i wouldn't hold out for an intelligent response.


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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2019, 04:47:34 am »
you're too far gone down the 'hey trump was just kidding' road if you think this is acceptable for someone in his position.

What if I told you that Trump has used the same voice and affect when not talking about disabled reporters?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgaC0leEb68

The media never told you that, but there's a bunch of video evidence of it. Why did they leave that out? Because it added context and killed the story.

Is Trump an asshole? Yes. Did he mock a reporter for being disabled? Doesn't look like it.
So because he mocks others it's OK to mock someone who is disabled? 


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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2019, 04:51:26 am »
I know some people might think I'm being pedantic, but in cases like this it's really important to get things right. I've gotten into arguments with right-wingers when they just lumped Sadrists in with Al-Qaeda and couldn't be arsed to devote any brain cells to the differences and complexities and motivations.

I also got into this with someone who lumped white prison gangs and white gangs in general in with organized white supremacist political movements. In most cases those gangs are not motivated by any great political ideology and are instead using "White" or "Nazi" for little more than identification and shock power. They are far more concerned with their relationship with Latino gangs that supply them methamphetamine and heroin than the finer points Nazi ideology.

Why is this important? Because in order to deal with such people and rehabilitate them and debate them and so on, you first have to understand their motivation. Someone who joins an Aryan biker gang for no reason other than to avoid being gang-raped in prison and then to get drugs outside of prison IS NOT someone who is responsible for hate crimes and should not be treated as such. Someone who joins Sadr's militia to oppose the presence of American troops because their cousin was arrested by Americans is NOT the same as a global jihadist who wants to restore the Caliphate.

But if you just lump these people all together and dismiss them as scumbags, you're making the same mistake as the Bush Administration did with Iraq, only on a smaller scale and with a different group of people. You're refusing to look at the complexities of a situation and people's motives because you're more concerned with narrative and ideology rather than actually trying to make the situation better.
You're singing the same old apologist song:
You're singing the same old apologist song:


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2019, 09:30:29 am »
What do you mean I edited out or ignored the definitions that don't agree with my definition  :laugh: :laugh:
You didn't post the third definition of racism, which incidentally happens to be the most commonly accepted use of it.

Quote
How do “racial prejudice or discrimination” disagree with FACT that white supremacists and white racists are the same thing? Do they not both believe in and practice racial prejudice/discrimination”?
Again, white supremacists are all racists, not all racists are white supremacists. Perhaps you are incapable of grasping the concept that a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.

White racists do not engage in certain activities that white supremacists therefore they cannot be white supremacists. Many do not actively pursue white supremacists policies politically. Some, get this, even vote Democratic, even for Obama in spite of some bigoted beliefs they hold. As someone who came from the Rust Belt, I can tell you there's a decent chunk of people who say pretty racist stuff and then walk in and vote blue (and plenty who vote GOP as well). These people are racists, but not supremacists. And even though they say racist stuff, they do not support discriminatory laws.

Contrast that with white supremacists who support any law that discriminates and vote based on racial issues above all. A racist cares more about health care, taxes, and social security. A white supremacist only looks at a candidate's race.


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Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2019, 10:08:13 am »

Again, white supremacists are all racists, not all racists are white supremacists. Perhaps you are incapable of grasping the concept that a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.

White racists do not engage in certain activities that white supremacists therefore they cannot be white supremacists. Many do not actively pursue white supremacists policies politically. Some, get this, even vote Democratic, even for Obama in spite of some bigoted beliefs they hold.

What a bizarre statement.

White racists and white supremacists have the same core beliefs, and the same end goal. But somehow through DM logic, they are different. Even though they have the same core beliefs and the same end goal, and often act to try to achieve that end mutually common goal...but they're different.

As someone who came from the Rust Belt, I can tell you there's a decent chunk of people who say pretty racist stuff and then walk in and vote blue (and plenty who vote GOP as well). These people are racists, but not supremacists. And even though they say racist stuff, they do not support discriminatory laws.

Voting blue isn't some sort of cleansing agent that stops someone from being a white supremacist. And there is no such thing as a benign racist. How many of those blue-voting, racist people where you grew up were managers, government officials, business owners, supervisors, teachers and decision makers in their workplaces/local politics? Can you prove these people only kept their racist thoughts in their heads and didn't act out these thoughts?

This is at least the second time you're claiming something as irrefutable fact even though it clearly is not.

Contrast that with white supremacists who support any law that discriminates and vote based on racial issues above all. A racist cares more about health care, taxes, and social security. A white supremacist only looks at a candidate's race.

A white racist cares about " health care, taxes, and social security" FOR WHITE PEOPLE...it's literally there in the definition. A white racist furthers the agenda for white people and white people alone. End of. White racists voted for Obama for whatever reasons the had. It didn't mean they gave a shit about black Americans or their well-being.

Nazis fought alongside the Japanese during WW2...does that suddenly mean Nazis weren't white supremacists because they aligned themselves with non-whites, and even went further by awarding those non-whites "honorary white" status?


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2019, 10:11:11 am »
So because he mocks others it's OK to mock someone who is disabled?
He treats everyone the same. Trump is an asshole, but he did not mock someone for being disabled. It doesn't matter what your color is, if you kiss his ass he is overflowing with praise. If you criticize him, he'll mock you incessantly.

You do realize the media is trying to deliberately rile you up, just so they get ratings and can satisfy their shareholders, right? Why do you think they helped create Trump in the first place


Re: North Koreans Harassed on Street for Wearing MAGA Hats
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2019, 10:13:05 am »
White racists and white supremacists have the same core beliefs, and the same end goal. But somehow through DM logic, they are different. Even though they have the same core beliefs and the same end goal, and often act to try to achieve that end mutually common goal...but they're different.
Do you seriously think that every white person who has said or acted in some way racist, wants to establish a white nationalist state leading to mass deportation and possible ethnic cleansing and overthrowing the government to establish a new one based on the principle of the superiority of the white race?