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  • kyndo
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    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2019, 11:59:24 am »
Sorry eggie, it was an aside, meant to explain *why* we're not all talking about the States. I apologize for the offtopicness.  :smiley:

Although I guess I'll go offtopic again to answer your comment: they aren't against reparations. They're against giving away money, jobs, and privileges as specified by one proposal or another. Non-raging racists and even some raging-racists can agree that something bad has happened in the past and that something should be done to make things better. They can also disagree about what should be done.

     Obama et all are concerned about the impracticality of allocating a significant portion of American resources to fix past sins without even the assurance that it would satisfy everyone. But there are way to make reparations that doesn't involve handing out envelopes stuffed with cash. Germany is a case in point. The country as a whole has made done it in such a way that most modern Jews generally feel very little resentment towards the German people.

Parts of this interview might explain what I mean better than I can.
     
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 12:06:49 pm by kyndo »


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2019, 12:07:45 pm »
So, can a Jewish person born today get reparations from Germany? Will a Jewish person alive 150 years after the end of WW2 be able to? 

Not saying they're the same thing, just curious about the principle.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 12:13:26 pm by eggieguffer »


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2019, 12:14:25 pm »
if i read the last page(ish) right, then i think we can all agree with the following:

reparations would be just, but may be impractical.

except, i don't think all of us are on board with saying "reparations would be the right thing to do, if we could". in other words, i think there are people here that would say "even if we could figure out a fair reparations policy, we shouldn't implement it." am i wrong?


  • kyndo
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    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2019, 12:36:02 pm »
So, can a Jewish person born today get reparations from Germany? Will a Jewish person alive 150 years after the end of WW2 be able to? 

Not saying they're the same thing, just curious about the principle.

Interesting question. Depends on how you define reparations, I suppose.
As of last year (73 years after the end of the war) Germany has earmarked an additional 88 million USD for supporting Jewish holocaust survivors, bringing total funding up to 560 million USD (this is seperate from what Germany still pays former Soviet countries, forced slave labour victims, medical experiment victims, and concentration camp survivors) .
   I assume that the program will eventually shut down, probably when the last survivor passes away. The remainder of the fund will probably end up going to scholarships etc, which might last for quite some time in the future.
   The other aspects of reparations such as holocaust museums, education programmes, and changes in the legal system (anti-discrimination laws, criminalization of hate symbols etc) will probably extend for perpetuity.

   There's actually a decent wiki article about German reparations, if that interests you.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 12:40:20 pm by kyndo »


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2019, 02:09:53 pm »
I can't even get behind the idea of it without a plan. The plan IS the idea. It defines the issue. Until there's a plan laid forth one might as well say "Everyone should have food" or some such. Who is everyone? What constitutes food? How do we pay for it?

Since this appears to be impracticable on its surface, barring some horribly blunt policy that would be a bureaucratic and political nightmare, or something already existing like affirmative action, I say the idea is pretty much a non-starter.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2019, 02:11:10 pm »
I can't even get behind the idea of it without a plan. The plan IS the idea. It defines the issue. Until there's a plan laid forth one might as well say "Everyone should have food" or some such. Who is everyone? What constitutes food? How do we pay for it?

Since this appears to be impracticable on its surface, barring some horribly blunt policy that would be a bureaucratic and political nightmare, or something already existing like affirmative action, I say the idea is pretty much a non-starter.

Yes, that's the way i feel about it too.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2019, 02:30:05 pm »
I can't even get behind the idea of it without a plan. The plan IS the idea. It defines the issue. Until there's a plan laid forth one might as well say "Everyone should have food" or some such. Who is everyone? What constitutes food? How do we pay for it?

Since this appears to be impracticable on its surface, barring some horribly blunt policy that would be a bureaucratic and political nightmare, or something already existing like affirmative action, I say the idea is pretty much a non-starter.

Yes, that's the way i feel about it too.

can you really not get behind the idea that everyone should have food? surely there are many ideas you can get behind despite sticky practical implications. can you not get behind the idea that everyone should have freedom of speech? or does it also become hard to define "everyone" or "freedom" or "speech"? there are tons of practical issues we run into when trying to figure that one out... it just seems like a cop-out to say that you can't support it because it would be hard to implement.

for what it's worth, the abolition of slavery was also a political nightmare. i'm sure it seemed "impracticable on it's surface" to most people.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2019, 02:54:34 pm »
I can't even get behind the idea of it without a plan. The plan IS the idea. It defines the issue. Until there's a plan laid forth one might as well say "Everyone should have food" or some such. Who is everyone? What constitutes food? How do we pay for it?

Since this appears to be impracticable on its surface, barring some horribly blunt policy that would be a bureaucratic and political nightmare, or something already existing like affirmative action, I say the idea is pretty much a non-starter.

Yes, that's the way i feel about it too.

can you really not get behind the idea that everyone should have food? surely there are many ideas you can get behind despite sticky practical implications. can you not get behind the idea that everyone should have freedom of speech? or does it also become hard to define "everyone" or "freedom" or "speech"? there are tons of practical issues we run into when trying to figure that one out... it just seems like a cop-out to say that you can't support it because it would be hard to implement.

for what it's worth, the abolition of slavery was also a political nightmare. i'm sure it seemed "impracticable on it's surface" to most people.

All those examples you gave were about people who are alive, that's why they are/were easier to solve.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2019, 03:26:38 pm »
All those examples you gave were about people who are alive, that's why they are/were easier to solve.

i think we could implement some form of reparations without starting a civil war. in fact, we have (if you consider AA a form of reparations)!

i'm holding to other my point, too. the fact that it would be hard does not prevent us from making the claim that it would be the right thing to do (if it were possible). if you want to say "yes, it would be the right thing to do, but it's impossible," then that's fine with me. we can stop the discussion there. but neither you nor 'tino will admit that it is right, even in principal.


  • gideonvasquez
  • Super Waygook

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    • August 27, 2015, 08:42:34 am
    • Uisung - Gyeongbuk-do
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2019, 03:29:30 pm »
I can't even get behind the idea of it without a plan. The plan IS the idea. It defines the issue. Until there's a plan laid forth one might as well say "Everyone should have food" or some such. Who is everyone? What constitutes food? How do we pay for it?

Since this appears to be impracticable on its surface, barring some horribly blunt policy that would be a bureaucratic and political nightmare, or something already existing like affirmative action, I say the idea is pretty much a non-starter.
I watched a debate on some news program or another about the realities of reparations for slavery. Both the supporting and opposing sides admitted that reparations for slavery itself would be difficult or impossible, politically, to administer and fund. Which was why they recommended reparations begin with simple and fairly indisputable examples of discrimination by the modern US government on a racial basis. This focused on the practice of "red-lining" and differential treatment of claims for benefits from black-GI's and white-GI's following WWII. The first method they mentioned to remedy the damages were access to preferential-rate, federally-backed loans (like those originally denied to non-whites in the mid-30's to late-70's). These loans can be granted to people who are alive today and were directly damaged by the discrimination. The second method of reparations was a simple matter of re-branding the payments to something more palatable. I think "freedom dividends" polled highest, even when the payment itself was described the same way as "reparations" was.

The issue I have mostly for slavery-based reparations (regardless of the name) is the difficulty of identifying 1. victims, 2. perpetrators, and 3. damages. These are the 3 core principles of reparations. But with issues like denied benefits for GI's and denied loans for non-whites it is much easier to identify who the first two groups are. The value of damages would be the most difficult part, in my opinion.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2019, 04:20:50 pm »
All those examples you gave were about people who are alive, that's why they are/were easier to solve.

i think we could implement some form of reparations without starting a civil war. in fact, we have (if you consider AA a form of reparations)!

i'm holding to other my point, too. the fact that it would be hard does not prevent us from making the claim that it would be the right thing to do (if it were possible). if you want to say "yes, it would be the right thing to do, but it's impossible," then that's fine with me. we can stop the discussion there. but neither you nor 'tino will admit that it is right, even in principal.

I don't think I do to be honest. I don't think Germany should still be making things up to Jewish people born in the second half of the 21st century so I can't really justify the US doing something similar for black people. Of course if life now is unfair for blacks in the US they should rectify it.


  • kyndo
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    • 5112

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2019, 04:32:42 pm »
i think we could implement some form of reparations without starting a civil war. in fact, we have (if you consider AA a form of reparations)!
It took me longer than I'm willing to admit that "AA" stood for "affirmative Action" and not "Alcoholics Anonymous".  :-[


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 441

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Burning Oil Be Best
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2019, 06:43:06 pm »
It reminded me of the automobile association at first glance. Dunno why. :smiley:

To add to the topic:
The Dutch and later the British have benefited greatly from the slave trade. But we are loathe to admit it, instead claiming some white ethnic ingenuity or our Calvinistic (read: white- not like them lazy Africans) work ethics as the traditional source of our prosperity.  The meager amount of aid we do send out to these wretched African nations is usually in the form of Dutch high-value capital goods like machinery which require high-tech maintenance increasing that nation's reliance on our economy.

These African nations have been robbed blind by us and will continue to be so by the Chinese because none of this would be possible weren't it for the fact that a great deal of people must live horrid lives just to support our lifestyles. Reparations?  Not if my veggies are 0,50 cents more expensive!

Shell's been ruining entire ecosystems and nations there but if you visit their corporate headoffices everyone's just beaming with excitement talking about new ''clean'' opportunities at the North Pole. Luckily there won't be any of these horrid brown people to deal with there, so I guess that's why everyone's cheering Shell on. Myself included, looking at all those sad images of Africans living in blackened waste lands gets so dreary sometimes. Gosh, I so abhor people that are too lazy to clean up after themselves and recycle properly.  :angel:

« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 08:07:30 pm by SanderB »
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2019, 10:57:01 pm »
It reminded me of the automobile association at first glance. Dunno why. :smiley:

To add to the topic:
The Dutch and later the British have benefited greatly from the slave trade. But we are loathe to admit it, instead claiming some white ethnic ingenuity or our Calvinistic (read: white- not like them lazy Africans) work ethics as the traditional source of our prosperity.  The meager amount of aid we do send out to these wretched African nations is usually in the form of Dutch high-value capital goods like machinery which require high-tech maintenance increasing that nation's reliance on our economy.

These African nations have been robbed blind by us and will continue to be so by the Chinese because none of this would be possible weren't it for the fact that a great deal of people must live horrid lives just to support our lifestyles. Reparations?  Not if my veggies are 0,50 cents more expensive!

Shell's been ruining entire ecosystems and nations there but if you visit their corporate headoffices everyone's just beaming with excitement talking about new ''clean'' opportunities at the North Pole. Luckily there won't be any of these horrid brown people to deal with there, so I guess that's why everyone's cheering Shell on. Myself included, looking at all those sad images of Africans living in blackened waste lands gets so dreary sometimes. Gosh, I so abhor people that are too lazy to clean up after themselves and recycle properly.  :angel:



Yes, 'black man good, white man bad',  throughout the whole of history. Except now when you can start saying 'yellow man bad.'  Africans have always had exactly zero agency for their own fate, and probably still have.


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 441

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Burning Oil Be Best
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2019, 11:12:38 pm »
Why quote an entire text if you are posting right after it?
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2019, 08:30:23 am »
can you really not get behind the idea that everyone should have food?
What does that mean? Do I want everyone to have "food?" Sure. I want everyone to have a full course buffet available to them at all waking hours for free. But as you can see, that's a meaningless notion. When we say everyone to have food who do define as everyone? Everyone who is poor? Everyone around the globe? Everyone regardless of income? What is food? A piece of bread and a bowl of gruel? Balanced and Healthy meals? Fresh? Quality? Vegan and Gluten-free? How do we pay for it? Order people to work in the fields to provide this food? Soak the rich? Use money that would have gone to health care or infrastructure? Who produces this food? Family farms? Big Agra? How is this food distributed? From farm to government agency to people? Seize it at the grocery store? Mass printing of food stamps? Any rules on what can and cannot be purchased?

Until you answer this, "Food for everyone" is a meaningless idea, just like reparations. I'm a supporter of flying cars and warp speed space exploration, but without any details, that's just as meaningless.

Quote
for what it's worth, the abolition of slavery was also a political nightmare. i'm sure it seemed "impracticable on it's surface" to most people.
It WAS a political nightmare. I guess you could say it was solved politically if you mean in the Clausewitzian sense. 600,000 dead. 600,000 dead and a divided country simply to give who knows what form of reparations to people? No thanks.

Which was why they recommended reparations begin with simple and fairly indisputable examples of discrimination by the modern US government on a racial basis.
That sounds like a good proposal. I'd support it. Specific examples and complaints brought by injured parties against a specific agency responsible for damages that can be identified.


  • SanderB
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    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Burning Oil Be Best
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2019, 06:38:59 pm »
No reparations, I like my ill-gotten VOC wealth too much for that.  Instead we'll offer anyone who manages to get here life-long guaranteed wellfare. And because we xenophobes dislike immigrants I also want a big wall around the EU, my country, city and my head.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 06:49:38 pm by SanderB »
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3631

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2019, 03:39:57 am »
I've read that pre-Japanese annexation, 75% of Koreans were slaves. Seems a bit high.

Probably a few serfs and what not in my family. A few peasants. A long line of serfs and peasants. It's a good thing that they cut out all that carry on. Imagine being a serf in 2019. 
I've heard 80% as in 80% had no family name.


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2019, 10:29:25 am »
When are the north African countries going to pay reparations for white slavery?  When will the Muslim states of North Africa and the Middle East pay for frequent invasions (raping and killing) of southern Europe?  Will the city of Rome pay reparations for invading many countries centuries ago?  How much will Mongolia now have to pay for the exploits of Genghis Khan?


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

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    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2019, 10:36:51 am »
When are the north African countries going to pay reparations for white slavery?  When will the Muslim states of North Africa and the Middle East pay for frequent invasions (raping and killing) of southern Europe?  Will the city of Rome pay reparations for invading many countries centuries ago?  How much will Mongolia now have to pay for the exploits of Genghis Khan?

When will Spain be held accountable for the former Spanish Empire? 

Anyway...if it comes to this, the Democrat Party should be the ones paying...