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Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #120 on: May 18, 2019, 11:37:38 am »
If he had any hair he wouldn't be blond and what's that got to do with the price of fish anyway? Frankly sanderb 50% of what you say goes right over my head. Is it me or you? And why do you keep going on about dutch stuff. Is anyone else on here interested?


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

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Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #121 on: May 18, 2019, 12:38:59 pm »
Fine.  Eggie, cu.
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


  • Kanali
  • Waygookin

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    • May 18, 2018, 09:41:55 pm
    • Dajeon
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2019, 06:41:42 pm »
Quote
   
I agree on this one. Let anyone, no matter their skin colour, culture or Religion, who has the skills, motivation and lack of criminal history come work. Europe owes them that much after a few centuries of pillaging and slavery. 

More people who weren't alive when it happened owing stuff to other people who weren't alive when it happened? Also LOL at muslims being the victims in the slavery issue.
Given that Muslim slave trade into the African continent was quite prolific.

And the reasons that there are so few African descendants surviving the Middle Eastern slave markets are quite barbaric. Unlike the Europeans, the Middle East slave traders knew they could always go back for more slaves, in close proximity, and they didn't care for the long-term survival of African slaves.

@8:30 minutes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E1gHowYcA


  • kyndo
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Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #123 on: May 18, 2019, 08:16:20 pm »
And why do you keep going on about dutch stuff. Is anyone else on here interested?
Psssh. Dutch stuff is awesome. Keep it rollin' Sanders.  :smiley:


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1659

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2019, 09:43:49 pm »
This is like someone saying 'if you draw the death card in the tarot set, it means someone's going to die', and the other person saying 'well I studied tarot cards for 6 years under a world renowned fortune teller and it actually signifies spiritual transformation'. 

Yeah, OK you're right, whatever.

I love how you use the simile of tarot cards and superstition for Islam as if I'm supposed to be outraged and offended. Reminds me of that annoying little nephew at large family gatherings who recently learned to blow a raspberry and desperately tries, in vain, to get that same shocked reaction he used to get from adults, who now barely possess the motivation to feign acknowledgment.

When getting into discussions, you refuse to read people's posts if they're too long, so yeah, you're a waste of keystrokes.
 

A lot of people, in Korea for example, believe in tarot cards and fortune telling.  I had a university student the other day tell me they were thinking of changing majors as a result of something a fortune teller told her. Don't be so arrogant to assume your faith is in any way superior to theirs. 

You kind of fell into a trap. If you think all religions or beliefs are equally valid you should have said 'yes, your analogy is right.' Instead, you assumed I was trying to make you angry  by the comparison.

I don't have to assume, I know mine is superior. Why on Earth would somebody follow a Faith if they thought a different Faith was superior??? Do you go to restaurants to order your 2nd choice off the menu?
There's a difference between respecting somebody else's Faith and believing it, though I wouldn't expect someone like you who criticises that which they're completely ignorant about to have the first clue.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 09:45:20 pm by Aristocrat »


  • SanderB
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Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2019, 10:15:12 pm »
And why do you keep going on about dutch stuff. Is anyone else on here interested?
Psssh. Dutch stuff is awesome. Keep it rollin' Sanders.  :smiley:

He's right Kyndo, you guys deserve your own special echo chamber without any other dissenting voices or other cultural viewpoints. I just came by thinking I could share some educational theoretical knowledge but yeah.... here I am fighting off right .
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #126 on: May 19, 2019, 07:03:13 am »
This is like someone saying 'if you draw the death card in the tarot set, it means someone's going to die', and the other person saying 'well I studied tarot cards for 6 years under a world renowned fortune teller and it actually signifies spiritual transformation'. 

Yeah, OK you're right, whatever.

I love how you use the simile of tarot cards and superstition for Islam as if I'm supposed to be outraged and offended. Reminds me of that annoying little nephew at large family gatherings who recently learned to blow a raspberry and desperately tries, in vain, to get that same shocked reaction he used to get from adults, who now barely possess the motivation to feign acknowledgment.

When getting into discussions, you refuse to read people's posts if they're too long, so yeah, you're a waste of keystrokes.
 

A lot of people, in Korea for example, believe in tarot cards and fortune telling.  I had a university student the other day tell me they were thinking of changing majors as a result of something a fortune teller told her. Don't be so arrogant to assume your faith is in any way superior to theirs. 

You kind of fell into a trap. If you think all religions or beliefs are equally valid you should have said 'yes, your analogy is right.' Instead, you assumed I was trying to make you angry  by the comparison.

I don't have to assume, I know mine is superior. Why on Earth would somebody follow a Faith if they thought a different Faith was superior??? Do you go to restaurants to order your 2nd choice off the menu?
There's a difference between respecting somebody else's Faith and believing it, though I wouldn't expect someone like you who criticises that which they're completely ignorant about to have the first clue.



So I criticize things I'm completely ignorant about, but you know your religion is superior to all the others. Are you going to claim you're an expert on all world religions now, you've studied them all and are convinced by comparison yours is the best? If not, you're also criticising things you're ignorant of. Come on, Isn't the reason you think your religion is superior just due to the fact you were brought up that way?

Also if Islam is so great, why are the countries that everyone in the world, including Muslims, want to emigrate to have a Judeo-Christian background? Are you going to tell me it's only because they got rich off the slave trade?

As for reading long posts about Islam, I'm an atheist. Reading a long passage about in exactly what way and in what books God spoke to someone on earth isn't going to change that. Just like reading a long passage about Tarot cards isn't going to convince me you can see into the future. If you posted a passage with a title like 'proof that God exists', I'd give it a go.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:22:38 am by eggieguffer »


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #127 on: May 19, 2019, 07:06:50 am »
And why do you keep going on about dutch stuff. Is anyone else on here interested?
Psssh. Dutch stuff is awesome. Keep it rollin' Sanders.  :smiley:

He's right Kyndo, you guys deserve your own special echo chamber without any other dissenting voices or other cultural viewpoints. I just came by thinking I could share some educational theoretical knowledge but yeah.... here I am fighting off right .

An echo chamber, that's a good one.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #128 on: May 19, 2019, 07:57:26 pm »
Why is it that Muslims in Europe are calling for Sharia while we never did? Could it be the issue is culture and not Religion?

Because they have the numbers for it in Europe.

This verse was revealed in a time and place

God did not qualify his orders by saying "this only applies in a certain time and place". How are you qualified to do so? Do you speak for god? If god says "punish gay people, but ONLY in Arabia in the time period following Mohamed's birth", that's what he means. If god says ""If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both", then that's what he means. I can't imagine that a god who orders the punishing of two consenting adults for acting on their innate desires is gonna be shy about telling us what he really means.

Why don't you see Muslims placarding outside bars or red light districts?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sharia-police-germany-supreme-court-judge-verdict-wuppertal-street-patrol-sven-lau-verdict-a8154196.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/670888/Sharia-patrol-Vienna-beat-dad-protecting-daughter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Muslim_patrols%22_in_London_(2013-2014)

https://www.mrctv.org/blog/sharia-patrols-harassing-citizens-london-belgium-sweden

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-18/aceh-on-the-streets-of-indonesias-most-conservative-province/9558054

The Qu'ran is not a legal system and we are ordered to obey the laws of the country we live in, as long as it doesn't instruct us to contradict our Faith i.e. drink alcohol prohibit woman from covering their head.

Tolerance of homosexuality literally contradicts your faith because you god literally ordered the faithful to literally punish homosexuals.

I really didn't want to go here, but I have to say I find it fantastically absurd that the possibility doesn't even occurs to you that you're arguing from a position of ignorance.
Aside from growing up in a Muslim neighbourhood, and as Muslim, I studied the Qu'ran for 6yrs, under tutelage from teachers, one whom is internationally renowned.
Even then, I still have things to learn. You have your opinion and that's fine, but honestly, can you say with full confidence that there's no possibility that you perhaps don't understand
the teachings of the Faith of another?

The Muslim neighbourhood I grew up in were made up of nearly 60% Muslims and the reminder Christians (mainly Protestant)... Never did the Muslims try to get the shebeens closed, unless
they operated illegally and posed a safety concern (the churchgoers usually pushed harder to get rid of the shebeens).

How am I qualified? How are you qualified to tell me that your understanding is correct? I understand my own Faith better than you do not because I'm Muslim, but because I've spent more time studying it.
The reason one doesn't read it in as straightforward a fashion as one is conditioned to is because it's a completely different book to Tom Sawyer, a cookbook or even the Bible. As I said previously, not a single letter of the Qu'ran has changed. So, understanding it requires a very thorough perspective; this is where the Hadiths come in. The Hadiths are used to help establish perspective, they are accounts of what Prophet Muhhamed did, during his life. There are over 60 000 Hadiths and while most are authentic some aren't . Scholars have, over hundreds of years, made efforts to distinguish between the authentic and false Hadiths.

To further answer, the Qu'ran didn't descend from heaven in the form of a book, you'd have an argument that it makes no sense the God wouldn't specify certain time periods if this was the case. It was revealed in the form of revelations to Muhhamed, in the same way it was revealed to all the prophets before Muhhamed i.e. Jesus Christ (PBUH), Abraham (PBUH), Moses (PBUH) etc. Muhhamed was illiterate, this is why, when reading the Qu'ran it's written in the tense "Say unto ..... " , it is as verbatim as you can get as Muhhamed didn't write it and risk putting words into reported speech thus altering the meaning.
The Revelations came in reaction to certain situations the Prophet found himself in i.e. the overwhelming Quraish army is charging towards the Muslims forces and The Prophet receives a revelation to not fear and "Kill all unbelievers (Polytheists) where they stand". Muhhamed (PBUH) didn't travel to the future and thus didn't receive revelations on the correct method to parallel park. These revelations were written and there you go, context. The Qu'ran is a long book, but not so long that one couldn't finish it in a weekend, so why do people take years and years to study it? There's more to it than "Align part A over Part C2".

It's obvious you aren't aware of these things and that's perfectly fine, it's not your Religion, don't research it if you don't want to, don't follow it, do your own thing... But don't assume that you know better after Googling a few quotes.

This is just a long winded ad hominem. You did not address any of my points. Your argument amounts to "I know more about this than you, because I know more about this than you, so I'm right".

That's not how any of this works. Play the ball, not the man. I can argue that 2+2=4 with John Tate. He can maintain that 2+2=5. It doesn't matter that he's studied mathematics for longer than I have. He can still be wrong.

I'm totally fine with arguing from a position of ignorance, and maybe I am ( I don't see how quoting the primary source is arguing from a position of ignorance, but that's, like, your opinion, man). I'm not fine with your logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty.

You don't know my faith, you don't know what I've studied. Lose your assumptions and prejudices.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 09:15:41 pm by kyndo »


  • JNM
  • The Legend

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    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2019, 02:49:19 am »
You cannot argue about beliefs the same way you argue about knowledge.

As long as you keep these two areas separate in your brain, you can have logical discourse about either.

Confusing belief (a supernatural being communicated with ancient people and told them not to eat pork) with knowledge (undercooked pork can carry pathogens; eating fatty meat increases risk heart disease) will only frustrate people.



  • kyndo
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Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2019, 07:42:06 am »
You cannot argue about beliefs the same way you argue about knowledge.

As long as you keep these two areas separate in your brain, you can have logical discourse about either.

Confusing belief (a supernatural being communicated with ancient people and told them not to eat pork) with knowledge (undercooked pork can carry pathogens; eating fatty meat increases risk heart disease) will only frustrate people.
     I'll admit that my knowledge of Islamic theology and law is pretty shaky, but insofar as I know the Jewish prohibitions on pork etc (which several Christian creeds observe as well) aren't thought to be derived from supernatural reasons, but from secular ones (mostly economic and hygienic) that have been included in holy texts. Over time the reasons became less important than the fact that the prohibitions were in the religious texts, and therefor remained part of religious law. Here's a very brief summary of the origins of certain religious dietary restrictions.

     Interestingly (maybe?) is that the Scottish used to have a tabboo against eating pork as well. That disappeared a long time ago, though..


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2019, 11:57:19 am »

This is just a long winded ad hominem. You did not address any of my points. Your argument amounts to "I know more about this than you, because I know more about this than you, so I'm right".

That's not how any of this works. Play the ball, not the man. I can argue that 2+2=4 with John Tate. He can maintain that 2+2=5. It doesn't matter that he's studied mathematics for longer than I have. He can still be wrong.

I'm totally fine with arguing from a position of ignorance, and maybe I am ( I don't see how quoting the primary source is arguing from a position of ignorance, but that's, like, your opinion, man). I'm not fine with your logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty.

You don't know my faith, you don't know what I've studied. Lose your assumptions and prejudices.

- You mentioned quite a few criticisms, all of which I'm happy to discuss, but each requires a thorough explanation and I'm
  simply not prepared to write pages and pages with no guarantee that you'll actually read it. The alternative is to simply
  tell you that I've spent more time studying the subject in question. Address one issue at a time and I'll tackle it.

- If you're playing football/soccer and you see a midfielder pick up the ball and throw it towards the goals (unless it's a
  throw in), would you be making a blind assumption or would you be prejudiced by believing the midfielder doesn't
  understand the rules of football/soccer? Let's say you're a skilled cook, it's pretty easy for you to spot someone, in the
  kitchen who doesn't know what they're doing, yes?
  Same thing, here. Based on what you've criticised and the reasons you've given, it's pretty quick for me to see that
  you arrive at your conclusions because you don't understand. Everything in Islam has a reason, nothing is arbitrary.   

- You don't have to believe in something to understand it, you accepting any of my beliefs is not a prerequisite to
  possessing sufficient understanding to criticise.

- Objective History is that Muhhamed (PBUH) existed, Muslims believe him to be the final prophet of God and the
  pedagogy of how Muslims came to follow, believe and understand the message he relayed. Opinion simply comes down
  to whether you believe it what Muhhamed (PBUH) relayed is true or not.

- If you're not willing to understand a bit of the History and context of Islam, you're arguing from a position of ignorance
  and you'll never be able to formulate anything resembling an educated rhetoric to criticize Islam, you'll simply be
  ranting.


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2019, 12:24:12 pm »
You cannot argue about beliefs the same way you argue about knowledge.

As long as you keep these two areas separate in your brain, you can have logical discourse about either.

Confusing belief (a supernatural being communicated with ancient people and told them not to eat pork) with knowledge (undercooked pork can carry pathogens; eating fatty meat increases risk heart disease) will only frustrate people.



That's an excellent point and I'm trying to focus on the latter. Context, History, Arabian society and culture circa. 570AD etc. falls under knowledge.

As Kyndo said:
Among other animals (mainly carnivorous), the prohibition of pork consumption is purely for hygienic and safety reasons.

Alcohol is prohibited as it robs you of your wits and risks you doing something stupid to yourself or others.
Fasting during Ramadan (Now) is mandatory (for all healthy adults) as it teaches empathy, discipline and has health benefits.
Taking interest (financial) is prohibited as we're taught that it leads to exploitative business practices.
Men aren't permitted to wear silk or gold as it leads to haughtiness and vanity when a man should be focusing on his character.
 
Nothing I've listed and nothing we're taught is arbitrary or has some unexplainable "magical" reason (that's superstition). Whether you agree with it or not, you can at least agree that the rationale is sound and logical.



Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #133 on: May 20, 2019, 12:28:03 pm »
One of the drawbacks (along with many many benefits) to the secular nature of modern education, is that people these days have more trouble understanding religious texts, how they are written, why they are written the way they are, and in what context they are to be taken. To be fair, this is a problem amongst the faithful as well.

Religious texts cannot be read in terms of selecting individual parts from individual chapters or books and then used to project onto the entire religion as a whole. You have to read the entire text from beginning to end before you can do that. Also, remember that religious texts are not just codes of rules, but they are also chronicles of history and struggle, as well as allegories and tales meant to relate to life for all time.

Interestingly, I read an article somewhere, and for the life of me I can't find it again, but it was from a mainstream academic (possibly Haidt?) which showed that religious people were better skilled and understanding allegory, metaphor and other literary devices compared to the non-religious. Meaning they could tell when something was meant to be taken literally and when it was meant as a lesson.