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Slavery and reparations
« on: April 30, 2019, 11:02:50 am »
Quote
   
I agree on this one. Let anyone, no matter their skin colour, culture or Religion, who has the skills, motivation and lack of criminal history come work. Europe owes them that much after a few centuries of pillaging and slavery. 

More people who weren't alive when it happened owing stuff to other people who weren't alive when it happened? Also LOL at muslims being the victims in the slavery issue.


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 11:34:37 am »
Quote
   
I agree on this one. Let anyone, no matter their skin colour, culture or Religion, who has the skills, motivation and lack of criminal history come work. Europe owes them that much after a few centuries of pillaging and slavery. 

More people who weren't alive when it happened owing stuff to other people who weren't alive when it happened? Also LOL at muslims being the victims in the slavery issue.

It's not a matter of retribution, it's a matter of arrogance. People tend to think that Europe became prosperous as a result of nothing but some European elbow grease and European brilliance. The platform of Europe's success was built on conquest and pillaging and I will admit, it's simply the way the world worked and Europe deserves it's success... but with that success comes a responsibility to help fix the mess they caused.

Finally, my Muslim ancestors were victims of slavery, thank you. They were bought and shipped from Malaysia and Indonesia to build the Dutch East India company port city known as Cape Town, where my family still resides.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 11:36:53 am by Aristocrat »


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 12:00:48 pm »
Having grown up around tons of Muslim immigrants, my main complaints are the decision to feature Little Debbie above Hostess at the corner store and constantly being hard-sold on the Gold-level car wash at the gas station.  It's an invasion!!!!!!


  • Mister Tim
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    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
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Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 12:13:41 pm »
Having grown up around tons of Muslim immigrants, my main complaints are the decision to feature Little Debbie above Hostess at the corner store

MONSTERS.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 12:28:36 pm »
Quote
Finally, my Muslim ancestors were victims of slavery, thank you. They were bought and shipped from Malaysia and Indonesia to build the Dutch East India company port city known as Cape Town, where my family still resides.

And I'm sure there are Europeans who recount a similar tale of woe. However, the idea that Europeans as a group are responsible for slavery and Muslims aren't, is ludicrous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1693

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 01:09:10 pm »
Quote
Finally, my Muslim ancestors were victims of slavery, thank you. They were bought and shipped from Malaysia and Indonesia to build the Dutch East India company port city known as Cape Town, where my family still resides.

And I'm sure there are Europeans who recount a similar tale of woe. However, the idea that Europeans as a group are responsible for slavery and Muslims aren't, is ludicrous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

Human nature is what's responsible for slavery and you're STILL illustrating what happens when you don't understand
the difference between a Muslim, an Arab, Islam, Sharia and culture.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2019, 01:16:09 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery

Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another


  • kyndo
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    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2019, 01:28:12 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2019, 01:35:52 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.

And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1693

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2019, 01:47:59 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.

And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,

4 times you've made the same mistake now. Should I get some crayons and draw you a picture?


  • Savant
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    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2019, 01:51:11 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.

And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,

4 times you've made the same mistake now. Should I get some crayons and draw you a picture?

Best to remove the black and brown crayons first before making your point to eggie.


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2019, 02:03:42 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.

And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,

4 times you've made the same mistake now. Should I get some crayons and draw you a picture?

Well if you refer to Europe as a collective group sharing the same responsibilities for slavery,  I'll do the same with the Muslims.


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

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    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2019, 06:13:23 pm »
And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,
Why, is there a contest with prizes?  :smiley:

The point is that if an individual, a group, or a society has done bad things, they should do what they can to correct it. This should happen regardless of who else did the same thing, and whether or not they are are doing anything about it.


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1693

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2019, 07:06:43 pm »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.

And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,

4 times you've made the same mistake now. Should I get some crayons and draw you a picture?

Well if you refer to Europe as a collective group sharing the same responsibilities for slavery,  I'll do the same with the Muslims.

Muslim - person who follows Islam
Islam - Faith which follows the teachings of the Qu'ran, a scripture which teaches the PERSON how to live as a Muslim. A lifestyle, not a legal or political system.
Sharia - Legal system created 1500yrs ago, after the death of prophet Muhhamed (PBUH), to unify tribal Arabian society into a Kingdom, using select Qu'ranic extracts and contemporary
               Arabic culture, customs and norms. Has since become a political tool of the House of Saud, to maintain rule.
Slavery - A common practice in the entire world, including Arabia, long before Islam came along.

Your gross fallacy is to use terms like Arab and Muslim synonymous terms.

Did I benefit from Saladin's captured slaves? Do I benefit from Dubai's modern day slaves?
No, because there's no such thing as a "Muslim World" as you call it, they're not Islamic issues, they're political ones. 
The closest word that is used is "Umma", which refers to  the world's community Muslims bound by ties of Faith, nothing more.

Europe, on the other hand. Does Mr Jones, in the UK, benefit from all the amenities of a first world country that he inherited from his ancestors?
Does Frua Muller, in Germany? Does Monsieur Martin? They most certainly do and their ancestors owe no small part of that to Colonialism. 

As Kyndo said, it's not a contest, but I fully agree that Europe and places like Dubai have a responsibility to help countries and people less fortunate than them, particularly
countries they owe much of their wealth to.

Criticise to your heart's content, but be fully aware of who, what and why you are criticising.





  • Cyanea
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    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2019, 10:46:50 pm »
...and you don't seem to understand it.

I understand it more than you obviously  :undecided:.

Quote
By that logic we should learn from history and be weary of Mongolian immigrants, they might just decide to take another crack at it and raise another horde to conquer all of Europe.

Mongolians are not poisoned with a hateful ideology that is passed from generation to generation.

Mongols had a brief window of military conquest that soon ended.  Islam however has subverted, terrorised, enslaved and butchered its way around the world since its inception non stop for centuries and is ongoing.

Quote
Wow! I didn't realize how opressed and terrified I was. My wife and I get to go to work, travel the world, take up hobbies, study etc. but that oppression is hiding there somewhere.
#

That's because you live(d) in South Africa which is a Christian-based country. Living in Cape town all your life hardly bears any resemblance to Riyadh.

Quote
Europe owes them that much after a few centuries of pillaging and slavery.

You're hilarious. Islam was behind the slave trade in Africa and elsewhere because they regard non-muslims as not deserving of rights.

 It was a European Christian who ended the historical slave trade. Muslims however still have slave markets in e.g. Libya and other islamic countries.

Muslims known as corsairs from the barbary coast were famous for raiding Europe, kidnapping and enslaving Europeans for centuries.

You don't seem to know much.

Thats par for the course though because islam deliberately suppresses the truth and deceives its adherents. Go ahead and get the thread locked. Hide yourself from facts even further.

Quote from: DeMartino
Having grown up around tons of Muslim immigrants, my main complaints are the decision to feature Little Debbie above Hostess at the corner store and constantly being hard-sold on the Gold-level car wash at the gas station.  It's an invasion!!!!!!

A tiny minority of muslims enjoying the benefits of Judaeo-Christian civilization in a western country where they were born and raised hardly bears any resemblance to what happens in a country with a muslim majority.

But given that you're only an american whose tiny comfortable life experience amounts to LA and Korea, I do realize its too much to expect anything of perspective from you.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 10:55:10 pm by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 12:33:36 am »
But given that you're only an american whose tiny comfortable life experience amounts to LA and Korea, I do realize its too much to expect anything of perspective from you.
The community I grew up in had a sizable Muslim population to the degree that Ramadan was an unofficial holiday and there were Muslim subcultures based on their country of origin. We even had, gasp!, Black American Muslims. Also, I'm not from LA.

Do I think you should just let in mass refugees (of any persuasion) with little to no verification? No. Do I think people should shit their pants in fear like a bunch of weak-ass bitches over regular Muslim immigrants? No. It's Saeed's Party Store! Run!!!!!! His son might accidentally run me over because he's too distracted adjusting the levels on his Alpine car stereo. The horrors!!!!

Speaking of "tiny world", how come everything I'm talking about is first person experience with Muslim immigrants and everything you're talking about is shit spewed out on the internet?

Quote
Living in Cape town all your life hardly bears any resemblance to Riyadh.
Uh, are you really comparing Muslims in South Africa to the general domestic population in a discussion of crime and well-being and militant movements? Does the name Julius Malema mean anything to you? Are you really comparing Riyadh to SA?


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2019, 12:50:58 am »
Quote
Human nature is what's responsible for slavery
Agreed, so stop saying one group of people owes something to another
     Just because human nature is responsible for something doesn't absolve individuals or groups for their actions.
While I agree that the West doesn't necessarily owe automatic citizenship to groups whose ancestors were the victims of the slave trade, I don't think it's right to wash one's hands of it completely because it's in the past. Recognizing the wrongs one committed as a society and seeking to redress them can be very beneficial to everyone involved.

     A decent example of this would be Germany and Japan: Germany owned up to it's wrongs and sought to correct them -- and is still doing so today. Japan has not put in nearly as much effort. Look at their respective relations with the rest of the world (especially with their victims) and you can immediately see what it has done for Germany.

And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,

4 times you've made the same mistake now. Should I get some crayons and draw you a picture?

Well if you refer to Europe as a collective group sharing the same responsibilities for slavery,  I'll do the same with the Muslims.

Muslim - person who follows Islam
Islam - Faith which follows the teachings of the Qu'ran, a scripture which teaches the PERSON how to live as a Muslim. A lifestyle, not a legal or political system.
Sharia - Legal system created 1500yrs ago, after the death of prophet Muhhamed (PBUH), to unify tribal Arabian society into a Kingdom, using select Qu'ranic extracts and contemporary
               Arabic culture, customs and norms. Has since become a political tool of the House of Saud, to maintain rule.
Slavery - A common practice in the entire world, including Arabia, long before Islam came along.

Your gross fallacy is to use terms like Arab and Muslim synonymous terms.

Did I benefit from Saladin's captured slaves? Do I benefit from Dubai's modern day slaves?
No, because there's no such thing as a "Muslim World" as you call it, they're not Islamic issues, they're political ones. 
The closest word that is used is "Umma", which refers to  the world's community Muslims bound by ties of Faith, nothing more.

Europe, on the other hand. Does Mr Jones, in the UK, benefit from all the amenities of a first world country that he inherited from his ancestors?
Does Frua Muller, in Germany? Does Monsieur Martin? They most certainly do and their ancestors owe no small part of that to Colonialism. 

As Kyndo said, it's not a contest, but I fully agree that Europe and places like Dubai have a responsibility to help countries and people less fortunate than them, particularly
countries they owe much of their wealth to.

Criticise to your heart's content, but be fully aware of who, what and why you are criticising.





The fact is, without even looking it up on wikipedia, I know there are several Muslim countries in Europe, and I also know the difference between Muslims, Arabs and Muslims who believe in Sharia law.  Obviously you are completely unaware of the former otherwise you wouldn't have tried to patronise me in the way you did. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

Quote
Europe, on the other hand. Does Mr Jones, in the UK, benefit from all the amenities of a first world country that he inherited from his ancestors?
Does Frua Muller, in Germany? Does Monsieur Martin? They most certainly do and their ancestors owe no small part of that to Colonialism. 

You mean Mr Jones, whose ancestors were Welsh and who were colonised by the English in the fifteenth century, or maybe Mr Murphy in the UK who benefits from all the amenities of a first world country he inherited from his ancestors who came over to the UK from Ireland during the potato famine in the 1850s? Or maybe the grandson of Mr Patel who came over from Pakistan in the 1960s? They all consider themselves British, should they all feel guilty for slavery?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:12:26 am by eggieguffer »


  • SanderB
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    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Burning Oil Be Best
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2019, 12:55:14 am »
With that it is perhaps an opportune moment to point out that remarkably on that EU map, the only countries with a 2+ birthrate/couple were Muslim countries.

So arguably, if Korea were to become muslim, the problem would be solved? :azn:

But seriously now, we had had that huge muslim refugee influx during the Yugoslavian war and they were also supposed to go back but not many actually did. And none of those Serbian muslims have caused any trouble so again I do not see the problem here. Birthrates are dropping, open up those borders to any migrants. :angel:
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:02:20 am by SanderB »
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1089

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2019, 01:44:03 am »
The community I grew up in had a sizable Muslim population to the degree that Ramadan was an unofficial holiday and there were Muslim subcultures based on their country of origin. We even had, gasp!, Black American Muslims.

Refer to point A once more. "The behaviour of a tiny minority of muslims born and raised in a western democracy and living under US law is in no way comparable to the reality of islamic life in most muslim majority countries".

Quote
Do I think you should just let in mass refugees (of any persuasion) with little to no verification? No.

Really? I'm quite happy for people of any race to immigrate into Europe or Korea.

Quote
Do I think people should shit their pants in fear like a bunch of weak-ass bitches over regular Muslim immigrants? No. It's Saeed's Party Store! Run!!!!!! His son might accidentally run me over because he's too distracted adjusting the levels on his Alpine car stereo. The horrors!!!!

Now you're just being silly in your usual juvenile pampered westerner way. Are you twelve years old? you sound it.

No nation in their right mind allows themselves to become a religious or cultural minority in their own country overnight, or ever, to be swamped by a proven hostile incomer. Thats not fear, its just common sense.

Do you get out of the way of oncoming traffic? Wow you must be a real pansy.

Quote
Speaking of "tiny world", how come everything I'm talking about is first person experience with Muslim immigrants and everything you're talking about is shit spewed out on the internet?

Do you really think your fleeting impressions of a few muslims having a barbecue in modern suburban USA trumps the recorded and fully documented history of islam re massive and widespread slavery, religious and ethnic cleansing, brutality, subjugation of women and minorities that has been the hallmark of islam since the 6th century?

 None of recorded history matters because you once saw an american muslim shopping in walmart and he looked ok so islam must be fine and dandy?   Your thought processes are infantile.

Catch my drift?


Re: Slavery and reparations
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2019, 01:50:58 am »
And who do you think has done more to say they're sorry for slavery? Western countries or the Muslim world? ,
Why, is there a contest with prizes?  :smiley:

The point is that if an individual, a group, or a society has done bad things, they should do what they can to correct it. This should happen regardless of who else did the same thing, and whether or not they are are doing anything about it.

True and as opposed to Western nations who have built museums and monuments, made innumerable TV shows and movies on the subject, dedicated days to remembering it and taught it in schools, Arab nations have made no apology for perpetrating the worst examples of slavery in the world.  Do you have anything to say about that? I'm guessing as POCs they get a pass.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 02:02:34 am by eggieguffer »