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  • Kyndo
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Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2022, 12:35:16 pm »
no *rational person* thinks that there's anything to gain from platforming neo-nazi ideas.
ftfy.  :smiley:
Too bad there are so many crazies out there.  :sad:

The banning of modern extremist movements has all the signs of a 1920s industrial age solution to a 2022 digital age problem.
To reiterate, I don't think the point is to *ban* extremist movements. I agree that that's pretty much impossible. The point is to make it more difficult for the propagation and normalization of hate speech -- and make it easier to prosecute after the event of a crime.

Also, in Canada, the Charter of Rights limits freedom of expression of things like child pornography, fraudulent medical advertisements, and incitement to violence. Most of these things are restricted in the US as well, but by laws other than those directly regarding freedom of expression (ie the 14th amendment). It might be helpful to understand that the term "free speech" differs slightly from place to place.
So while freedom of expression *is* technically not unrestricted in Canada, many (although not all) of those same restrictions exist in the US as well.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6326

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2022, 08:01:10 pm »
I think there's plenty to be gained. For one, it will greatly curtail their recruiting efforts. Two, it will help delegitimize these groups. By giving them a voice, it makes their ideas to be part of regular political discourse.

A good example is Car's defense of trump and, just above, extremism. People respond to him because this forum gives him a voice, one that judging by the length and frequency of his posts he can't get elsewhere.


  • Spliced
  • Super Waygook

    • 313

    • August 05, 2022, 12:15:38 am
    • Jeolla
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2022, 10:01:05 pm »
The banning of modern extremist movements has all the signs of a 1920s industrial age solution to a 2022 digital age problem.

I often wonder why the Democratic Party was never banned.  It's history speaks for itself, but, people in the U.S. (thanks to horrid public schooling and a merger between the two parties) don't know any better.  The Democratic Party panders to THE lowest common denominator, has allowed the trashing and deconstruction of once-great cities, yet, projects what IT does and what THEY do, over to the other side.  White Supremacy?  That twas the Democratic Party (and as long as minorities are under its thumb, too stupid to understand or know the history, all is well for them). 



  • Spliced
  • Super Waygook

    • 313

    • August 05, 2022, 12:15:38 am
    • Jeolla
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2022, 10:18:19 pm »
Spliced, feel free to reply however you want, but please keep in mind that profanity, racism, and ad hominems are against the TOS.  :smiley:

Show me where the "racism" is.  I'm sure we can back and check out gohomgaator's racists rants....(yet, somehow, she/he is still here..hmmmm). 

Profanity?  Go find a safe-space.  I'm sure you can seek out instructions for that on TikTok.

ad hominems?  Others, especially minions here, do it all the time.  Perhaps, in stead of taking an obvious towards those minions, you should most likely give them the same warnings. 


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6326

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2022, 10:35:28 pm »
Let's face it--in the current political climate, well exemplified by the cable guy, immigration reform is a non-starter.

Texas can squander its tax dollars on busing (remember when conservatives opposed busing?) and the immigrants they ship out will become productive employees, who pay a fair amount of taxes, in other parts of the country. I think that's a lose-win.


Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2022, 12:27:45 pm »
ftfy.  :smiley:
The point is to make it more difficult for the propagation and normalization of hate speech
The problem is that such laws tend to affect the propagation of non-hate speech. Either at the onset of their coming into effect or through additional expansion. Now the slippery slope IS a logical fallacy in that it cannot be proven, however that doesn't mean it isn't above 50% predictive.

Quote
and make it easier to prosecute after the event of a crime
That can be accomplished without speech laws. Any kind of "hate" crime gets stronger sentences.

I see the effort to ban hate speech/political parties a bit similar to the effort to ban abortion. Ultimately we're talking "moral" issues here. And I think that if one can make their case in the open space of public discourse, the morality will follow and such practices as abortion or racism will become increasingly rare and outside the norm. If you have to resort to making laws to get your way, it likely suggests that you've done a poor job making your case, which should cause you to re-examine what you're doing and what issues people are dealing with.

Banning speech and political parties is a sign of weakness, not strength, at least in an open society.


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  • The Legend

    • 2353

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2022, 02:22:55 pm »
I think there's plenty to be gained. For one, it will greatly curtail their recruiting efforts.

on the contrary, anything that gets them news coverage (including attempts to ban them) ramps up their recruitment drive. modern extremist movements recruit pretty much exclusively online. this is true of old terrorist orgs like ISIS (theres a reason the fbi wants to get their hands on peoples digital footprint and phone convos so much) and doubly true of any of the myriad of alt-right cells that popped up over the last few years.

of course this isnt true for the particular brand of wackos that form private militias out in the bayou, but those guys are, well, out in the bayou.


Two, it will help delegitimize these groups. By giving them a voice, it makes their ideas to be part of regular political discourse.

it may help to delegitimize them in the eyes of the general public, but despite what certain pundits would have you think, the general public doesn't really need any help when it comes to hating terrorists and nazis. in the meantime, that sort of reaction actively plays into the narrative that the leadership of these movements tends to push.

not to say they should be given a spot on the actual debate stage of course, but might as well let them run around screaming into the void. lack of reaction (unless they're actually breaking laws ofc) is the best sort of reaction to these sorts, it kills their rhetoric entirely


A good example is Car's defense of trump and, just above, extremism. People respond to him because this forum gives him a voice, one that judging by the length and frequency of his posts he can't get elsewhere.

i sincerely doubt that anything that anyone posts here will have any notable impact on political discourse or society as a whole. and even if car had a platform somewhere else, i doubt it would end in anything more than the same sort of bickering we do on here


  • Kyndo
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Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2022, 03:06:27 pm »
The problem is that such laws tend to affect the propagation of non-hate speech. Either at the onset of their coming into effect or through additional expansion. Now the slippery slope IS a logical fallacy in that it cannot be proven, however that doesn't mean it isn't above 50% predictive.
I don't feel that this has been the case in Canada, and its Charter of Freedoms has been around in its modern form since 1982.
Just because a slippery slope argument *could* be true doesn't mean that you can claim that it is without any kind of evidence in support of it.
Do you feel that hate-speech laws in Canada have become increasingly harsh, or have expanded in scope? Honest question.

I see the effort to ban hate speech/political parties a bit similar to the effort to ban abortion. Ultimately we're talking "moral" issues here. And I think that if one can make their case in the open space of public discourse, the morality will follow and such practices as abortion or racism will become increasingly rare and outside the norm. If you have to resort to making laws to get your way, it likely suggests that you've done a poor job making your case, which should cause you to re-examine what you're doing and what issues people are dealing with.

Banning speech and political parties is a sign of weakness, not strength, at least in an open society.
I don't see how the analogy to anti-abortion laws is applicable.
I also don't feel that having a legally recognized ban on the dissemination of child pornography, selling snake-oil, and deplatforming Nazis is any of what you suggest above.

Please keep in mind that "freedom of speech" isn't just about being able to say what you want in a public space. Many countries that place restrictions of freedom of speech (such as Canada) are targeting those wider ramifications such as those mentioned above.  :smiley:

Also, just a small aside, the legal right to engage in political dissent and disobedience is explicitly protected in the Canadian Charter of Rights of Freedoms.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7956

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2022, 03:44:42 pm »
From Wiki:

The economic literature supports the idea that greater freedom of expression fosters greater economic growth, because the free exchange of ideas stimulates innovation. The opposite (i.e., censorship) hampers academic freedom and research. According to an econometric analysis of the relationship between freedom of expression and economic growth, Canadians would be $2,522 richer every year on average if Canada's public policies encouraged freedom of expression as much as Norway's.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7956

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2022, 04:02:19 pm »
The Montreal Economic Institute says a “climate of censorship seems to be taking hold on our university campuses, within our cultural institutions, and even among the general public.

The statement says “this new puritanism hurts the economy and makes Quebecers poorer... we would be richer if we had even more freedom of expression.”

https://www.thesuburban.com/news/city_news/montreal-economic-institute-says-puritanism-and-censorship-hurts-economy/article_221e5d87-bca9-5d2c-aebb-0ea3716bc23c.html

“Around the world, we can see that freedom of expression and the increasing wealth of the population are intimately connected,” stated Miguel Ouellette, Director of Operations and Economist at the MEI. “There is every reason to believe that a climate of censorship reduces the sharing of information and innovation, which are essential to economic growth.”

The MEI says its researchers used an econometric model to “evaluate the cost of Canada’s obstacles to free speech.

“If Canada were as good as Norway in terms of freedom of expression, Canadians would be $2,552 richer every year,” stated Maria Lily Shaw, Economist at the MEI and co-author of the publication. “It’s unfortunate that freedom of expression is less and less valued on our university campuses. These are normally fertile ground for the exchange of ideas, which is a necessary condition for innovation.”


Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2022, 04:11:29 pm »
Two, it will help delegitimize these groups. By giving them a voice, it makes their ideas to be part of regular political discourse.

A good example is Car's defense of trump and, just above, extremism. People respond to him because this forum gives him a voice, one that judging by the length and frequency of his posts he can't get elsewhere.
This comment right here shows the problem behind the push

1) It assumes that Nazis and Terrorists are currently legitimized. If you think that's the case, you need to put the internet down.
2) It assumes that them being able to speak makes them part of regular political discourse, again see #1
3) It assumes that I or someone like me have some kind of influential voice and this is causing societal upheaval.

So you could
A) Think that Nazis and terrorists are part of legitimate, regular political discourse at the moment and that ol' DeMart is somehow influencing people to become NAZIS/TERRORISTS.
B) Put down the social media, twitter, and news fear porn and get some fresh air

The fact that these laws are being promoted by people who have lost all sense of reality as to think something akin to choice A is what the world currently is, should be disturbing as it is indicative of a complete break with reality and unhealthy paranoia. Basically, a step away from witch-hunt territory.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6326

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2022, 06:36:34 pm »
on the contrary, anything that gets them news coverage (including attempts to ban them) ramps up their recruitment drive. modern extremist movements recruit pretty much exclusively online. this is true of old terrorist orgs like ISIS (theres a reason the fbi wants to get their hands on peoples digital footprint and phone convos so much) and doubly true of any of the myriad of alt-right cells that popped up over the last few years.

of course this isnt true for the particular brand of wackos that form private militias out in the bayou, but those guys are, well, out in the bayou.


it may help to delegitimize them in the eyes of the general public, but despite what certain pundits would have you think, the general public doesn't really need any help when it comes to hating terrorists and nazis. in the meantime, that sort of reaction actively plays into the narrative that the leadership of these movements tends to push.

not to say they should be given a spot on the actual debate stage of course, but might as well let them run around screaming into the void. lack of reaction (unless they're actually breaking laws ofc) is the best sort of reaction to these sorts, it kills their rhetoric entirely


i sincerely doubt that anything that anyone posts here will have any notable impact on political discourse or society as a whole. and even if car had a platform somewhere else, i doubt it would end in anything more than the same sort of bickering we do on here
Your arguments here are similar to car's. Everything's OK; there's a just a few wingnuts out in the countryside. Turns out it's pretty easy for them to get to Washington, D.C. Or to a nearby FBI building.

There's a good deal of research showing how they recruit using the internet and how effective it is.


  • Kyndo
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Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2022, 07:08:29 pm »
The Montreal Economic Institute says...
LI, this is *completely* irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

I'm talking about government and law-making decisions regarding issues like child pornography, adverts for fake medicine, and hate-speech.
You're talking about the economic impact of private institutions (like universities) adhering to a culture of increasing censorship.

These are 2 *very* different things.

Also, while I agree that this trend towards censorship in society is worrisome, I don't think that economic impact is the best way of measuring it's effect.


Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2022, 07:43:53 pm »
Turns out it's pretty easy for them to get to Washington, D.C. Or to a nearby FBI building.
Yes, gogators! As long as you aren't on an electronic tether, you can travel from state to state. You don't have to stop at any internal checkpoints and present your papers to the security services. Also, the nation's capitol is free and open for anyone to travel to and visit. Additionally, there are almost always no roadblocks and gendarmes around Federal law enforcement buildings and random pedestrians are not searched and accosted when they walk by them.

This is part of living in a free, open and democratic society.

However, if you think that this is a problem, you are free to recommend some places where there might be rules against such activities.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6326

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2022, 01:44:07 am »
Yes, gogators! As long as you aren't on an electronic tether, you can travel from state to state. You don't have to stop at any internal checkpoints and present your papers to the security services. Also, the nation's capitol is free and open for anyone to travel to and visit. Additionally, there are almost always no roadblocks and gendarmes around Federal law enforcement buildings and random pedestrians are not searched and accosted when they walk by them.

This is part of living in a free, open and democratic society.

However, if you think that this is a problem, you are free to recommend some places where there might be rules against such activities.
There were rules in place in Washington, D.C. against their activities. They ignored them and are facing the consequences.

As for "recommending" somewhere that the right to peacefully protest and freedom of speech are being restricted, look no further than Ron Desantis's Florida.


Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2022, 08:10:39 am »
There were rules in place in Washington, D.C. against their activities. They ignored them and are facing the consequences.

As for "recommending" somewhere that the right to peacefully protest and freedom of speech are being restricted, look no further than Ron Desantis's Florida.
Dude, you thought you were making a clever point, except it totally wasn't. "OMG it's easy for Nazis to travel to D.C.!!!!"

And yes, if someone tries to improperly enter a building they can face laws ranging from simple trespass up to whatever insurrection laws there are, all without banning speech and no, this doesn't result in them being legitimized.

Just because you think America is filled with Nazis because millions voted for Trump, doesn't mean that's true. Like I said, put down the social media and news and go talk to people. No one, even Trump rally attendees, think the Nazis and KKK are legitimate (and yes you might find a few single randoms who do, just like a few random Dems who think Bin Laden had a legitimate grievance or whatever). "I support Nazis" has as much support amongst the right as "I support Hamas" has amongst the left. Probably less.


  • Kyndo
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Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #96 on: September 07, 2022, 11:07:30 am »
C'mon. JVC isn't *that* bad!


Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #97 on: September 07, 2022, 11:22:36 am »
^ WHY DOES THIS OBNOXIOUS FCKING KUNT STILL HAVE AN ACTIVE ACCOUNT?


On the positive side, at least mblga is saying it in more of an aristocratic-dismissive tone than one of ranting and frustrating. I mean, I can't get too upset.

Also, it's a query, not a statement, so I think its okay.

Oh it was probably meant for Spliced...woops


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

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    • March 02, 2027, 11:00:00 pm
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Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #98 on: September 07, 2022, 11:44:56 am »
Oh it was probably meant for Spliced...woops
My (deliberate) bad.   :smiley:


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6326

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: What are your thoughts on the current US migration issue?
« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2022, 07:11:27 pm »
Dude, you thought you were making a clever point, except it totally wasn't. "OMG it's easy for Nazis to travel to D.C.!!!!"

And yes, if someone tries to improperly enter a building they can face laws ranging from simple trespass up to whatever insurrection laws there are, all without banning speech and no, this doesn't result in them being legitimized.

Just because you think America is filled with Nazis because millions voted for Trump, doesn't mean that's true. Like I said, put down the social media and news and go talk to people. No one, even Trump rally attendees, think the Nazis and KKK are legitimate (and yes you might find a few single randoms who do, just like a few random Dems who think Bin Laden had a legitimate grievance or whatever). "I support Nazis" has as much support amongst the right as "I support Hamas" has amongst the left. Probably less.
I just stated facts. dude.

You contradict yourself--first there are no Nazi and kkk supporters at trump's rallies and then there are some. Since you're having a hard time keeping your story straight, why not take the 5th? It's all the rage with trump and his lawyers.