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  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3824

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Why is “, however” wrong.
« on: April 10, 2019, 12:18:59 am »
MS Word tells me to use a semicolon before “however”, but a comma is fine ahead of “but”.

Bristol tells me this is true , ; however they don’t tell me why it is so.

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_27.htm
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:35:25 am by JNM »


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 312

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 03:17:39 am »
I had to read your question a few times but I think you mean to ask whether you should use a comma or semicolon in front of the adverb however functioning as a coordinating/subordinate conjunction?

however is a conjunctive adverb  and Word is probably telling you to avoid a comma splice because you are trying to use it as a coordinating conjunction, which it is not. But nobody's aware of this and I'm pretty sure I'm a weirdo for remembering splices from my Error Analysis Course of many yesteryears.

Quote
And, but, for, nor, or, so, and yet—these are the seven coordinating conjunctions

Archaic Rule 1


You can use a semicolon between two independent clauses linked by a conjunctive adverb or transitional phrase.Conjunctive adverbs include: however, finally, consequently, indeed, etc. Transitional phrases include: as a result, for example, on the contrary, in addition, etc.
 


Don't read that rule, instead, just use a full-stop.

Quote
She went into the store; however, she didn’t find anything she wanted to buy.
She went into the store.However, she didn’t find anything she wanted to buy.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 03:42:06 am by SanderB »
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  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3824

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 03:33:23 am »
I had to read your question a few times but I think you mean to ask whether you should use a comma or semicolon in front of the adverb however functioning as a coordinating/subordinate conjunction?

however is a conjunctive adverb  and Word is probably telling you to avoid a comma splice because you are trying to use it as a subordinate conjunction, which it is not. But nobody's aware of this and I'm pretty sure I'm a weirdo for remembering splices from my Error Analysis Course of many yesteryears.

Quote
List of Subordinate Conjunctions
After   Once   Until
Before   So that   Whereas
Even if   Than   Wherever
Even though   That   Whether
If   Though   While

Archaic Rule 1


Always use a period or semicolon before the conjunctive adverb when separating two independent clauses.

Quote
She went into the store; however, she didn’t find anything she wanted to buy.
I like you a lot; in fact, I think we should be best friends.

Don't read that rule, instead, just use a full-stop.
I had to read your question a few times but I think you mean to ask whether you should use a comma or semicolon in front of the adverb however functioning as a coordinating/subordinate conjunction?

however is a conjunctive adverb  and Word is probably telling you to avoid a comma splice because you are trying to use it as a subordinate conjunction, which it is not. But nobody's aware of this and I'm pretty sure I'm a weirdo for remembering splices from my Error Analysis Course of many yesteryears.

Quote
And, but, for, nor, or, so, and yet—these are the seven coordinating conjunctions

List of Subordinate Conjunctions
After   Once   Until
Before   So that   Whereas
Even if   Than   Wherever
Even though   That   Whether
If   Though   While

Archaic Rule 1


Always use a period or semicolon before the conjunctive adverb when separating two independent clauses.

Quote
She went into the store; however, she didn’t find anything she wanted to buy.
I like you a lot; in fact, I think we should be best friends.

Don't read that rule, instead, just use a full-stop.
Thank you.

I think my mistake is that I am treating “however” as a synonym of “but”.


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 312

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2019, 03:45:54 am »
Yes,  but we all do. I had to think and rethink myself, too. I mean, seriously, who uses semis in normal writing?
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  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3824

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2019, 04:30:17 am »
Yes,  but we all do. I had to think and rethink myself, too. I mean, seriously, who uses semis in normal writing?

I do quite a bit, however but I mostly write procedures and lists.


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 312

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2019, 05:27:58 am »
 ;D

That is, however, the only reason I know of which would require using these confused commas.
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  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1246

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • Seogwipo, Jeju Island
    more
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2019, 07:00:50 am »
However, however long the sentence is, "however" as a conjunction is anything but used correctly by most students - no ifs, ands or buts; but, then again, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 07:02:32 am by VanIslander »


  • Piggydee
  • The Legend

    • 2522

    • October 15, 2013, 07:32:43 am
    • South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 07:08:01 am »
And yet some of us wag English teachers are over here like....."Oh yeah, that."  :laugh:  Sorry but the way my E-2 Visa is set up I'm not suppose to teach grammar points like that  :laugh:  And I'm glad I don't have to.  It's bad enough I have days where it feels like I'm talking to a wall.  To teach comma splices  :huh: :huh:  No thank you!!



« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 09:35:35 am by Piggydee »


Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2019, 07:21:39 am »
And yet some of us wag English teachers are over here like....."Oh yeah, that."  :laugh:  Sorry but the way my E-2 Visa is set up I'm not suppose to teach grammar points like that  :laugh:  And I'm glad I don't have to.  It's bad enough I have days where it feels like I'm talking to a wall.  To teach comma slices  :huh: :huh:  No thank you!!

i'm Ralph...



  • Piggydee
  • The Legend

    • 2522

    • October 15, 2013, 07:32:43 am
    • South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2019, 07:26:52 am »
Btw the way OP, why are you asking about this?  Is it because you teach a literary writing class or are you just writing a paper for yourself? 

Imagine teaching this in public school.  There's no rap song, bomb game, or ppt visuals that would make this grammar point fun and exciting to the elementary school kids.  I can just see my class of 28 6th graders tearing up the room from boredom if I opened up the class talking about this. 

I do however, at my smaller, second main school, teach about when to use articles to modify a noun.  My 3rd graders are learning the topic "It's a ball,"  so I draw a vowel face on the board  a, e (as eyes) i (as the nose) o (as the mouth) and u (as the face)  my kids seem to latch on to that idea of what a vowel is (because I also wrote 모음 on the board) but I'm not sure if they understand when to use a/an.  I have tested them by writing words like cake and umbrella on the board with little blank spots beside them and quiz the students "okay which one goes next to this word."  I would say 5/8 or 4/8 kids understand why we say an apple and not a apple.   :lipsrsealed:

Otherwise, I under no circumstances teaching grammar trees.  Ugh I hated those as a kid growing up, not going to torture my kids with that either. 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 07:36:49 am by Piggydee »


  • Mister Tim
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1474

    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
    • SK
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2019, 07:28:13 am »
Imagine teaching this in public school.  There's no rap song, bomb game, or ppt visuals that would make this grammar point fun and exciting to the elementary school kids.   

We don't all teach elementary school.


  • Piggydee
  • The Legend

    • 2522

    • October 15, 2013, 07:32:43 am
    • South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2019, 07:31:35 am »
And yet some of us wag English teachers are over here like....."Oh yeah, that."  :laugh:  Sorry but the way my E-2 Visa is set up I'm not suppose to teach grammar points like that  :laugh:  And I'm glad I don't have to.  It's bad enough I have days where it feels like I'm talking to a wall.  To teach comma slices  :huh: :huh:  No thank you!!

i'm Ralph...



Yep I've definitely been Principal Skinner on moments when my principal at my main school ask my lower level students to translate the word 나무 (tree) and they can't produce the answer.  I get a very polite look of "why don't they know this."  :/  Ugh I have taught them that word but it's in one ear out the other with some of these kids. :-(


  • Piggydee
  • The Legend

    • 2522

    • October 15, 2013, 07:32:43 am
    • South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2019, 07:34:13 am »
Imagine teaching this in public school.  There's no rap song, bomb game, or ppt visuals that would make this grammar point fun and exciting to the elementary school kids.   

We don't all teach elementary school.

UGH YEAH!  That's why I asked OP why they wanted to know about this.  I've known people to get the lucky job of college professor here.  Or other friends of mine who teach rich kids here who go to prestigious private schools in North America and England.  So yeah not all of us work at rural elementary school.  GOTCHA!


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3824

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2019, 07:40:05 am »
Btw the way OP, why are you asking about this?  Is it because you teach a literary writing class or are you just writing a paper for yourself? 
It is for my own writing.
I am an engineer, so I write a lot. I bet it is more than the average English major does after graduation!


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 4939

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Why is “, however” wrong.
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2019, 12:08:29 pm »
Btw the way OP, why are you asking about this?  Is it because you teach a literary writing class or are you just writing a paper for yourself? 
It is for my own writing.
I am an engineer, so I write a lot. I bet it is more than the average English major does after graduation!
I dunno 'bout that: look at some of the post counts of us Waygookers!
However, I guess I'm gonna agree with you in that most of what people write here barely counts as English.  :P