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  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 482

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2019, 02:01:40 pm »
 
Firstly, I'd bet it's not your experience.
No, it is. Smart people generally don't complain about them because they either A) Know the material, so it isn't a problem. or B) Don't externalize blame and assign any failures to their own lack of preparation. That being said, there are times in which indeed it is dumb and there ARE dumb standardized tests out there that do little to prepare and don't pertain to relevant things and are a poor judge of competency.

But we have to remember why standardized tests are done- You have lots of people and limited time. You need a way to evaluate these things in an expedient AND impartial manner. And while there are exceptions and many kinds of intelligence, these tests generally do sort out the wheat from the chaff.

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they induce stress and rely on a great "on the day" performance, rather than measuring general knowledge or intelligence as a whole.
That's another good thing. They can help evaluate who can bring it and how they react to stress and challenge. Now of course there are variances and that's why these things should NEVER be one-shot deals.

But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

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I disagree that rote is your fundamentals in your sports analogy. I think you are massively reaching there to be honest.
Why?

Rote and knowledge are akin to fundamentals. They are a base from which you can add the other elements that make you a complete learner/athlete.

The thing about stress is an absolutely idiotic thing to say. Just because you aren't stressed by tests, doesn't mean it's "pathetic" to be. You are not superior to anyone. There are many kinds of intelligence and people have different strengths and weaknesses. I know a lot of idiots who can fluke a test. Again I'll use language as an example...the amount of Koreans I've met who brag about a great TOEIC score....but their English ability is whack.

Your analogy is irrelevant. You're comparing apples and oranges just to make a point and it just doesn't work.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 02:04:29 pm by debbiem89 »


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2019, 02:08:03 pm »
But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

my mum went back to university in her 50s to study Philosophy and Politics and got a first for her dissertation but because she finds sitting tests difficult, her final score dropped to a 2.2.  is that pathetic?  maybe you think she's stupid because she can't sit a teeny weeny test.  you would have to have a truly warped view of the world to think that people who are not good at tests are pathetic.  but as we are all well aware of your views on these things (your views on depression are also equally small-minded and ridiculous) , it's always about inferiority with you and trying to get one up on someone else.  i hope you'll change one day, but i wouldn't hold my breath.   :rolleyes:


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2019, 02:10:30 pm »
Rote and knowledge are akin to fundamentals. They are a base from which you can add the other elements that make you a complete learner/athlete.

I don't think this is a good analogy. Muscle memory and long-term memory are different. You would never, ever drill anything into your memory as much as you would drill something into your muscle memory. Let's take baseball and learning Korean to further this analogy. You can practice throwing a curve ball 1,000 times and get it nowhere near perfect. If you don't know that 점신 is "lunch" after the first dozen reviews, there's something wrong. What "fundamentals" could you rote memorize? I'm not convinced it holds up. The same goes if we're talking about history or any other subject. You can drill throwing a ball in the same exact way, in the same exact situation, for years (and always learn something or perfect it more). There's nothing that compares to that in any educational learning situation.


  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 482

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2019, 02:17:07 pm »
Quote
my mum went back to university in her 50s to study Philosophy and Politics and got a first for her dissertation but because she finds sitting tests difficult, her final score dropped to a 2.2.  is that pathetic?  maybe you think she's stupid because she can't sit a teeny weeny test.  you would have to have a truly warped view of the world to think that people who are not good at tests are pathetic.  but as we are all well aware of your views on these things (your views on depression are also equally small-minded and ridiculous) , it's always about inferiority with you and trying to get one up on someone else.  i hope you'll change one day, but i wouldn't hold my breath.   :rolleyes:

Your mum is a hero.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2019, 02:20:28 pm »
Again, I'm not questioning the importance of being able to recall (useful) information. I just think that, in 2019, we have better methods of learning. I'm not saying rote memorization of facts is useless, but a "return to rote" definitely doesn't seem like what we need.

For example, American students (in general) do not like history and do not find history as useful as other subjects. Unsurprisingly, a large part of American history classes (and tests) require recalling content (names and dates). I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say far more people enjoy debating the main causes of the Civil War as opposed to remembering the main causes as prescribed by a textbook. Not to beat a dead horse (sorry PETA... "feed a fed horse"  :rolleyes:) but, in my opinion, the methods are both more interesting and useful. You don't learn methods by rote memorization.
Red alert! Red alert! Tyler opened the military history can of worms! 8 paragraph DeMartino treatise inbound!

All joking aside, I do agree that there is a problem with attention getting that rote certainly wouldn't solve. As I've consistently said, it has to be a part of things.

To use the Civil War example, yes people would enjoy debating the causes. Unfortunately, without a base of knowledge and the recall of certain events, one would be ill-equipped to do so. If one were to discuss the causes of the Civil War with people who had the requisite knowledge, the discussion would differ greatly from those who have little to no knowledge.

These days I see a lot of people saying "We should have killed all the Confederates" or "Sherman was right". However some rote memorization might have led to the recall of Lincoln's meeting with Grant, Sherman, and David Dixon Porter, immortalized in Healy's painting The Peacemakers, in which they discussed the war and what to do with the defeated Confederates. In it Lincoln emphasized that emancipation must be the law of the land, the need for reconciliation, that rebel soldiers should be free to return to their farms, and that there should be no "bloodletting" and the Confederates were to be welcomed in.

This sentiment was mirrored in a meeting that Robert E. Lee had with his commanders with the Union armies closing in at Appomattox. It was suggested that the rebels could disperse, in particular the cavalry, and continue fighting as partisans/guerrillas. Lee quashed such a notion, viewing such a state of affairs only prolonging bloodshed and ruining the country even further. The respect he carried among his commanders and men made the surrender a relatively painless one.

Facts such as these used to be common knowledge. They aren't any longer. Is it any surprise that we see people saying that "We should have hanged them all"?

Of note, most classes have probably watched the film Gettysburg with Jeff Daniels as Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. While he is remembered for his role in that battle as shown in that film, perhaps the most significant moment of his military career came during the surrender at Appomattox. The Confederates were marching to stack arms, led by Maj. Gen. John B. Gordon on horseback. As they neared Chamberlain, who had been given the honor of receiving their surrender, Chamberlain called his men to attention and gave the order to shoulder arms, as a salute to the defeated Confederates. Gen. Gordon responded in kind and the surrender proceeded. Afterwards Union and Confederate soldiers intermingled as the Union soldiers shared food and everyone commiserated over the war. Shows of respect like this helped to heal the nation.

Similarly, people cite Sherman as the "man who got it right in dealing with the South". However, Sherman was liberal with his terms to Joseph E. Johnston when he surrendered the other major Confederate army in the East. Johnston never forgot Sherman's magnanimity and was later a pall-bearer at Sherman's funeral, standing in the pouring rain without his hat, refusing to put it on because Sherman would have done the same for him. Johnston died shortly thereafter from pneumonia.

When people talk about wanting to tear down statues and "We should have hanged them all", as someone with KNOWLEDGE of that event, I am appalled by this. The fact that the very people who fought in that war were able to show greater mercy and forgiveness than people who NEVER fought in it and were born 100 years after its conclusion is mind-boggling. And the only way I can think of them wanting to do things like "hang everyone" is that they clearly haven't learned about why Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman did what they did, and what people like Lee did to make sure that the situation did not devolve into a 30 year occupation and guerrilla war.

This is the difference between knowledge and being able to recall events vs. a few videos, making your own hardtack and singing a Civil War song and sitting in a circle and talking about why the war started because white men are bad.

You get this by sitting down. Reading the material. Remembering it and recalling it when prompted. From this base of knowledge you can engage in much better analysis of the event.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2019, 02:22:18 pm »
my mum went back to university in her 50s to study Philosophy and Politics and got a first for her dissertation but because she finds sitting tests difficult, her final score dropped to a 2.2.  is that pathetic?  maybe you think she's stupid because she can't sit a teeny weeny test.  you would have to have a truly warped view of the world to think that people who are not good at tests are pathetic.  but as we are all well aware of your views on these things (your views on depression are also equally small-minded and ridiculous) , it's always about inferiority with you and trying to get one up on someone else.  i hope you'll change one day, but i wouldn't hold my breath.   :rolleyes:
It's one thing to find a test stressful. It's another to declare tests so stressful that they should be eliminated. I've taken stressful tests before and bombed a few. I didn't say the test was the problem. I said I need to learn how to calm down and think clearly in this situation so that won't happen again. The test is a neutral object. I was the variable. I can control myself.

Your mom is NOT pathetic. She handled it and did the best she could. She never said tests shouldn't be given.


  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 482

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2019, 02:26:49 pm »
my mum went back to university in her 50s to study Philosophy and Politics and got a first for her dissertation but because she finds sitting tests difficult, her final score dropped to a 2.2.  is that pathetic?  maybe you think she's stupid because she can't sit a teeny weeny test.  you would have to have a truly warped view of the world to think that people who are not good at tests are pathetic.  but as we are all well aware of your views on these things (your views on depression are also equally small-minded and ridiculous) , it's always about inferiority with you and trying to get one up on someone else.  i hope you'll change one day, but i wouldn't hold my breath.   :rolleyes:
It's one thing to find a test stressful. It's another to declare tests so stressful that they should be eliminated. I've taken stressful tests before and bombed a few. I didn't say the test was the problem. I said I need to learn how to calm down and think clearly in this situation so that won't happen again. The test is a neutral object. I was the variable. I can control myself.

Your mom is NOT pathetic. She handled it and did the best she could. She never said tests shouldn't be given.

In all fairness no one said that.

What I said is that we shouldn't base someone's intelligence on tests.

We were talking about the problems with tests and why they cannot be relied upon.

Don't backtrack what you said. You said if you find tests stressful it was pathetic.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2019, 02:30:21 pm »
What "fundamentals" could you rote memorize? I'm not convinced it holds up. The same goes if we're talking about history or any other subject.
Okay, if you want to go into the mental realm of sports- game tape.

In American football you can memorize the other team's offensive and defensive sets and adjust accordingly.

In baseball you can memorize pitcher's tendencies. Some of the great hitters have PHENOMENAL memory of at-bats. They can recite what pitch was thrown in what count by what pitcher. I think it was either David Ortiz or Victor Martinez who was tested on this and was incredible at it. That certainly is an asset as pitchers tend to throw certain pitches in certain situations.

And even if you don't have that memory yourself and have to rely on data, the player who can remember those tendencies for the other team's pitchers will have an edge.

There's a reason coaches say time and time again "We need to go look at that tape." "We forgot what we studied in the film room."

Or in the world of mechanical repair or medicine or military operations...How many times has someone remembered some obscure factoid that was the critical answer?


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2019, 02:32:57 pm »
We were talking about the problems with tests and why they cannot be relied upon.
As opposed to what other system to impartially evaluate large numbers of people and be able to generate data from which to evaluate methods and outcomes?


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2019, 02:43:38 pm »
What "fundamentals" could you rote memorize? I'm not convinced it holds up. The same goes if we're talking about history or any other subject.
Okay, if you want to go into the mental realm of sports- game tape.

In American football you can memorize the other team's offensive and defensive sets and adjust accordingly.

In baseball you can memorize pitcher's tendencies. Some of the great hitters have PHENOMENAL memory of at-bats. They can recite what pitch was thrown in what count by what pitcher. I think it was either David Ortiz or Victor Martinez who was tested on this and was incredible at it. That certainly is an asset as pitchers tend to throw certain pitches in certain situations.

And even if you don't have that memory yourself and have to rely on data, the player who can remember those tendencies for the other team's pitchers will have an edge.

There's a reason coaches say time and time again "We need to go look at that tape." "We forgot what we studied in the film room."

Or in the world of mechanical repair or medicine or military operations...How many times has someone remembered some obscure factoid that was the critical answer?

I think you're still arguing with the assumption that I think memory or "knowing things" is bad. I don't think David Ortiz is watching 1000s of hours of tapes or looking at flashcards that say "3-2 count, Johnson throws low fastballs" before he goes to sleep (correct me, if I'm wrong). That's rote memorization. Ortiz knows these things because of his thousands of at-bats and personal experience with different pitchers in different situations. I'm sure he probably reviews statistics and looks at the data available to him. But looking at data and considering your own experience is different than what a student does to rote drill a 50 word vocabulary list. To really make the analogy weird... if rote memorization is vocabulary flashcards, David Ortiz is learning the words by taking a look at the vocab list and then encountering the words in the world.

edit: i took out the watching tapes part because imo analyzing tapes isn't rote learning. necessarily, it requires analysis
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 02:50:18 pm by tylerthegloob »


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 407

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Gouda cheese Be Best cheese
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2019, 03:07:38 pm »
Okay, I'm calling it: Martino is autistic af and should not be a teacher.

I teach the highest IQ students (120-165) and each class has 1-2 people like you in it. Also 6-8 students with performance anxiety. Your claim about rote/ testing is beyond ridiculous, it's autistic.

You just make weird claims with 0 experience or 0 empathy again!
You don't read anything but merely dictate weird unscientific truths to us like a bitter old man.
Some of your posts are seemingly okay but then... you always give yourself away in the end by projecting your hurt and pain onto us even though we show you all the science, instead you disregard it (backtrack) and shoot off into another segue about God knows what! I had thought you sincerely lost and bewildered but you are just lifeless and mean, unintentionally, such as only an autist can be.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 03:19:21 pm by SanderB »
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2019, 03:08:52 pm »

I think you're still arguing with the assumption that I think memory or "knowing things" is bad. I don't think David Ortiz is watching 1000s of hours of tapes or looking at flashcards that say "3-2 count, Johnson throws low fastballs" before he goes to sleep (correct me, if I'm wrong). That's rote memorization.
Well I don't know Ortiz's method, but it would stand to reason that at least SOME players do that.

What do you think they do? Stroll up to the plate and NOT have those tendencies memorized?


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2019, 03:15:36 pm »

I think you're still arguing with the assumption that I think memory or "knowing things" is bad. I don't think David Ortiz is watching 1000s of hours of tapes or looking at flashcards that say "3-2 count, Johnson throws low fastballs" before he goes to sleep (correct me, if I'm wrong). That's rote memorization.
Well I don't know Ortiz's method, but it would stand to reason that at least SOME players do that.

What do you think they do? Stroll up to the plate and NOT have those tendencies memorized?

Again, I'm not saying they didn't learn it, just that they probably didn't learn it via rote methods (flashcards, writing it down 100 times, etc.). No one is gonna say memorizing things is bad. I think 1000s of at-bats are gonna teach you much more than 1000s of hours trying to remember specific facts about specific pitchers.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2019, 03:17:11 pm »
Okay, I'm calling it: Martino is autistic af and should not be a teacher.

I teach the highest IQ students (120-165) and each class has 1-2 people like you in it. Also 6-8 students with performance anxiety. Your claim about rote/ testing is beyond ridiculous, it's autistic.

You just make weird claims with 0 experience or 0 empathy again!
You don't read anything but merely dictate weird unscientific truths to us like a bitter old man.
Some of your posts are seemingly okay but then... you always give yourself away in the end.
Calls me unscientific. Diagnoses autism on Waygook.org

Nothing says autistic like bantering over Big Papi!


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2019, 03:22:22 pm »

I think you're still arguing with the assumption that I think memory or "knowing things" is bad. I don't think David Ortiz is watching 1000s of hours of tapes or looking at flashcards that say "3-2 count, Johnson throws low fastballs" before he goes to sleep (correct me, if I'm wrong). That's rote memorization.
Well I don't know Ortiz's method, but it would stand to reason that at least SOME players do that.

What do you think they do? Stroll up to the plate and NOT have those tendencies memorized?

Again, I'm not saying they didn't learn it, just that they probably didn't learn it via rote methods (flashcards, writing it down 100 times, etc.). No one is gonna say memorizing things is bad. I think 1000s of at-bats are gonna teach you much more than 1000s of hours trying to remember specific facts about specific pitchers.
Oh I think we're probably closer on this than we appear. Both of us have mentioned the limitations of our respective positions and the fact that other methods have value.

But it wouldnt surprise me if on the team bus or something, guys will be like "Pettitte 1-2, last pitch was a slider low and away" and try and remember his tendencies, just to stay sharp and focused.

Like there are hardcore fans that can do that, so it wouldn't surprise me if scouts, before the advent of big data, could do that.


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 407

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Gouda cheese Be Best cheese
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2019, 03:23:33 pm »
You make me want to take a shower.

Each tear in the eyes of my students scream in my memory at how autistic you are to even think such a foul thing.
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


  • jasonr
  • Newgookin

    • 1

    • February 25, 2019, 06:58:44 pm
    • Australia
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2019, 10:02:25 pm »
Whatever your opinion and inference of someone's character from this fleeting forum interaction, let's not use "autism" as a derogatory label on these forums (or anywhere else). Not only is it childish and something people simply shouldn't do, it's especially worrying that a teacher would do it. Settle down.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2019, 07:17:36 am »
But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

He says this while living in a country where young people are killing themselves because of "that test".  What a classy man.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2019, 08:17:43 am »
But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

He says this while living in a country where young people are killing themselves because of "that test".  What a classy man.

I imagine it's the pressure they're put under to do well in the test (probably by parents) rather than the test itself that's causing suicides.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3894

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2019, 09:43:45 am »
But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

He says this while living in a country where young people are killing themselves because of "that test".  What a classy man.

I imagine it's the pressure they're put under to do well in the test (probably by parents) rather than the test itself that's causing suicides.

If university applications were more wholistic, then there would not be that acute pressure that drives students to the brink.

Also, parents need to realize that not everyone gets to be an astronaut and manage expectations.