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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2019, 07:35:58 am »
northstar and debbie y'all gotta ****** CHILL with the long ass quotes. i'm not trying to scroll three times just to see your one line responses to each other.


  • NorthStar
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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2019, 07:38:34 am »
I'm appalled.
Suppose this was said in class by a 17-year-old boy to a girl, would you not step in and lecture the boy on manners and ethics? All she is saying is to stop acting like an obnoxious young boy and you start shooting off in some unscientific #saveallthebabies talking point that only backwarded people believe in.

It reminds me of the Kavanaugh debate I had in class and to my surprise, the boys sided with Kavanaugh! Stating those exact silly talking points as spewed by Fox news.

And the fact that you are a teacher! :huh:

-----------
Yeah, that cat gif is spot on. Trying to lead us linguists on! lol.  :wink:

Proof, the newer generation is dumb as sh*t.

In regards to your conveniently painted context, I probably would let them hash it out...equal opportunity, right? 


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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2019, 07:39:34 am »
northstar and debbie y'all gotta ****** CHILL with the long ass quotes. i'm not trying to scroll three times just to see your one line responses to each other.
My parents know how to trim quotes.

Man, this generation is dumb.
The joys of fauxtherhood


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2019, 07:43:07 am »
And yes, if two teenage students are debating abortion, even if it gets heated and personal, educators should stay out of it and let them resolve it and not inject their own personal politics and take sides. Kids need to learn how to debate things and resolve them themselves. It's okay for kids to be rude to each other and learn the consequences of that behavior themselves, without adult interference. They're 17. Teacher, mommy, and daddy aren't always going to be there.

yeah, i mostly agree (i love "active" students, as you know). to be fair, if a kid called another kid a "mental midget" i'd probably segway that into a little discussion about effective and ineffective debate (and human communication) tactics. specifically, calling someone a mental midge is both ineffective in a debate and in general communication situations. i think that's a fair, teachable moment.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2019, 07:52:55 am »
My parents know how to trim quotes.

is that a euphemism?


  • Mister Tim
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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2019, 07:56:13 am »


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2019, 08:14:11 am »
I threw up a little just now.
Nice rebuttal. Can't debate the facts or the issues.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2019, 08:20:08 am »
I threw up a little just now.

it's okay he gets most of his information from Fox. also, I think demartian is making the title of this thread obsolete with the six gagillion bazillion posts he's made.


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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2019, 08:21:13 am »
The joys of fauxtherhood


  • debbiem89
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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2019, 08:44:24 am »
northstar and debbie y'all gotta ****** CHILL with the long ass quotes. i'm not trying to scroll three times just to see your one line responses to each other.
My parents know how to trim quotes.

Man, this generation is dumb.

D'oh! I didn't realise how ridiculous that was until I looked back haha. Sorry guys.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2019, 09:18:40 am »
Yes. Old people have been alive longer than young people. This has been and always will be true. I'm not sure what your point is here.
Just pointing out how the most impulsive, least experienced, least developed, and least productive demographic tends to lean strongly to the left.  :wink:

Although again, if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart.

Quote
I'm also not too sure what your point is with this clip, other than it being an example of a smart older guy. Anyway, I never said that you shouldn't know the basics.

You can learn the basics without rote memorization. You mentioned the Bill of Rights earlier. It's probably more useful to learn about the Third Amendment through class discussion than rote memorization. On top of that, I'm not sure how important it is to even have the Third Amendment memorized (in 2019, when you can Google the original text and anything else about it). If you're in a constitutional law class or it's related to your job, then it might be something that you should know for a class discussion (or a TV appearance). However, I don't see why your average American needs that information. I've never had to invoke my Third Amendment rights, nor have I had many casual conversations about it (nor has it even been in the news in the last few decades). As "basic" as that knowledge is, it isn't really useful for the vast majority of people. So, why have them rote memorize some practically useless information when you can instead teach it while also teaching valuable communication or debate skills?

I do think it is useful when you need to recall something or react or form an opinion and you don't have two hours to research things. Retention of that information allows you to recall it when inquiring about certain subjects. It's also helpful in understanding a lot of stuff in the news or related to higher education.

I think we may have overcompensated in de-emphasizing rote. It certainly needed to be done, but perhaps we went too far. If you don't have a base of knowledge, all the critical thinking or emotional maturity in the world won't help you. I also get the strong impression that a lot of the resistance to rote is not so much in its effectiveness, but rather personal experience and discomfort with having to memorize stuff and being judged on it. Is rote bad? Or are people just taking out their frustrations for all those hours of study and the fact that they got a mediocre score on the SAT and thus went to a so-so university?


  • debbiem89
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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2019, 09:26:31 am »
Yes. Old people have been alive longer than young people. This has been and always will be true. I'm not sure what your point is here.
Just pointing out how the most impulsive, least experienced, least developed, and least productive demographic tends to lean strongly to the left.  :wink:

Although again, if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart.

Quote
I'm also not too sure what your point is with this clip, other than it being an example of a smart older guy. Anyway, I never said that you shouldn't know the basics.

You can learn the basics without rote memorization. You mentioned the Bill of Rights earlier. It's probably more useful to learn about the Third Amendment through class discussion than rote memorization. On top of that, I'm not sure how important it is to even have the Third Amendment memorized (in 2019, when you can Google the original text and anything else about it). If you're in a constitutional law class or it's related to your job, then it might be something that you should know for a class discussion (or a TV appearance). However, I don't see why your average American needs that information. I've never had to invoke my Third Amendment rights, nor have I had many casual conversations about it (nor has it even been in the news in the last few decades). As "basic" as that knowledge is, it isn't really useful for the vast majority of people. So, why have them rote memorize some practically useless information when you can instead teach it while also teaching valuable communication or debate skills?

I do think it is useful when you need to recall something or react or form an opinion and you don't have two hours to research things. Retention of that information allows you to recall it when inquiring about certain subjects. It's also helpful in understanding a lot of stuff in the news or related to higher education.

I think we may have overcompensated in de-emphasizing rote. It certainly needed to be done, but perhaps we went too far. If you don't have a base of knowledge, all the critical thinking or emotional maturity in the world won't help you. I also get the strong impression that a lot of the resistance to rote is not so much in its effectiveness, but rather personal experience and discomfort with having to memorize stuff and being judged on it. Is rote bad? Or are people just taking out their frustrations for all those hours of study and the fact that they got a mediocre score on the SAT and thus went to a so-so university?

Doesn't that prove that rote is bad? If you don't align with this method of learning you get a mediocre score and are therefore stupid..?

It's not an effective learning method. The fact that we place so much importance on SATs (or equivalent) and what university someone went to is ludicrous when it's based off this kind of rigid system. It's pure memorisation, like my students...they can memorise plenty of English sentences, but can they use them in any real way? Does that give them a connect to the culture or the language even? No.

Some of the most intelligent people I know, didn't go to university.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 10:01:42 am by debbiem89 »


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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2019, 09:40:36 am »
northstar and debbie y'all gotta ****** CHILL with the long ass quotes. i'm not trying to scroll three times just to see your one line responses to each other.
My parents know how to trim quotes.

Man, this generation is dumb.
Luckily, I *do* know how to trim quotes.  :smiley:
Talking about parents and quotes, here's a decent one from their epoch:

"People try to put us down
Just because we get around
Things they do look awful cold
I hope I die before I get old
This is my generation, baby

Why don't you all fade away
And don't try to dig what we all say
I'm not trying to cause a big sensation
I'm just talkin' 'bout my generation
This is my generation, baby"


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2019, 09:56:29 am »
Yes. Old people have been alive longer than young people. This has been and always will be true. I'm not sure what your point is here.
Just pointing out how the most impulsive, least experienced, least developed, and least productive demographic tends to lean strongly to the left.  :wink:

Although again, if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart.

I guess so? But, I could also point out that the least capable of separating fact from fiction (older people) tend to lean conservative. So the impulsive lean left and the delusional lean right. It doesn't seem like this line of thinking gets us anywhere, never mind the fact that there are tons of young conservative and old liberals.

Quote
Quote
You can learn the basics without rote memorization.

I do think it is useful when you need to recall something or react or form an opinion and you don't have two hours to research things. Retention of that information allows you to recall it when inquiring about certain subjects. It's also helpful in understanding a lot of stuff in the news or related to higher education.

I think we may have overcompensated in de-emphasizing rote. It certainly needed to be done, but perhaps we went too far. If you don't have a base of knowledge, all the critical thinking or emotional maturity in the world won't help you. I also get the strong impression that a lot of the resistance to rote is not so much in its effectiveness, but rather personal experience and discomfort with having to memorize stuff and being judged on it. Is rote bad? Or are people just taking out their frustrations for all those hours of study and the fact that they got a mediocre score on the SAT and thus went to a so-so university?

Again, I'm not questioning the importance of being able to recall (useful) information. I just think that, in 2019, we have better methods of learning. I'm not saying rote memorization of facts is useless, but a "return to rote" definitely doesn't seem like what we need.

For example, American students (in general) do not like history and do not find history as useful as other subjects. Unsurprisingly, a large part of American history classes (and tests) require recalling content (names and dates). I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say far more people enjoy debating the main causes of the Civil War as opposed to remembering the main causes as prescribed by a textbook. Not to beat a dead horse (sorry PETA... "feed a fed horse"  :rolleyes:) but, in my opinion, the methods are both more interesting and useful. You don't learn methods by rote memorization.


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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2019, 10:04:06 am »
Luckily, I *do* know how to trim quotes.  :smiley:
Talking about parents and quotes, here's a decent one from their epoch:

"People try to put us down
Just because we get around
Things they do look awful cold
I hope I die before I get old
This is my generation, baby

Why don't you all fade away
And don't try to dig what we all say
I'm not trying to cause a big sensation
I'm just talkin' 'bout my generation
This is my generation, baby"


Who?
The joys of fauxtherhood


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2019, 12:03:18 pm »
Luckily, I *do* know how to trim quotes.  :smiley:
Talking about parents and quotes, here's a decent one from their epoch:

"People try to put us down
Just because we get around
Things they do look awful cold
I hope I die before I get old
This is my generation, baby

Why don't you all fade away
And don't try to dig what we all say
I'm not trying to cause a big sensation
I'm just talkin' 'bout my generation
This is my generation, baby"


Who?

that's The Who to you, mister.  show some respect to the older generation. you lot, and your happy-slapping and mingers n'shit.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2019, 12:25:26 pm »
Doesn't that prove that rote is bad? If you don't align with this method of learning you get a mediocre score and are therefore stupid..?
No. Like I said, rote is part. It's an important part. It's not the core. What people are suggesting is that it is "bad". It is not bad, it is just not enough to stand on it's own and is best in a complimentary role. The fact that something is not good on its own, does not make it "bad".

Quote
It's not an effective learning method. The fact that we place so much importance on SATs (or equivalent) and what university someone went to is ludicrous when it's based off this kind of rigid system.

There's generally a correlation between being able to do well on standardized testing, intelligence, and academic aptitude. Are there plenty of exceptions? Sure. Should it be the only criteria? Absolutely not. Does that mean that people who are bad at these tests aren't smart? Of course not. There are many kinds of intelligence.

It's been my experience that the people who complain about those tests tend to be people who are not as smart as they think they are or have some sort of emotional temperament problem with them.

As for language, rote is certainly useful for vocabulary and grammar. For speaking skills, less so. Again, it is a compliment, not the core. But it should not be discounted.

I'll use a sports analogy- Rote is your fundamentals. Your basic footwork, proper technique for fielding a ball or shooting a free throw, or knowing plays and reading an offense/defense. Is it everything? No. Can you be a star player with bad free throw technique? Sure, look at Shaq. But that rote is in most cases, a base from which you add everything else. And in a fast-moving, competitive environment, that rote often takes over and helps you make quick decisions and recognize things.

It's like a lot of teaching nowadays would be the equivalent of a basketball coach telling everyone to just freestyle and do what they feel like and everyone is a streetballer. None of those boring dribbling or footwork drills. Sure you might turn out an Iverson or even just a Rafer Alston, but you can also see the limitations that a lack of fundamentals can sometimes cause. Don't dismiss rote and don't dismiss your fundamentals in training.


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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2019, 12:34:49 pm »
Who?

that's The Who to you, mister.  show some respect to the older generation. you lot, and your happy-slapping and mingers n'shit.

Who?
Pete VillageStop
Dodger Adultery
John Bellwhistle
Keef De Lune

In all seriousness, they were my first concert. They were awesome.
The joys of fauxtherhood


  • debbiem89
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Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2019, 12:53:21 pm »

Quote

It's been my experience that the people who complain about those tests tend to be people who are not as smart as they think they are or have some sort of emotional temperament problem with them.

As for language, rote is certainly useful for vocabulary and grammar. For speaking skills, less so. Again, it is a compliment, not the core. But it should not be discounted.

I'll use a sports analogy- Rote is your fundamentals. Your basic footwork, proper technique for fielding a ball or shooting a free throw, or knowing plays and reading an offense/defense. Is it everything? No. Can you be a star player with bad free throw technique? Sure, look at Shaq. But that rote is in most cases, a base from which you add everything else. And in a fast-moving, competitive environment, that rote often takes over and helps you make quick decisions and recognize things.

It's like a lot of teaching nowadays would be the equivalent of a basketball coach telling everyone to just freestyle and do what they feel like and everyone is a streetballer. None of those boring dribbling or footwork drills. Sure you might turn out an Iverson or even just a Rafer Alston, but you can also see the limitations that a lack of fundamentals can sometimes cause. Don't dismiss rote and don't dismiss your fundamentals in training.

Firstly, I'd bet it's not your experience. It's your assumption. Testing is controversial for a reason. Tests not only exclude many people, but they induce stress and rely on a great "on the day" performance, rather than measuring general knowledge or intelligence as a whole.

I disagree that rote is your fundamentals in your sports analogy. I think you are massively reaching there to be honest.


Re: Is this the first generation that's dumber than the previous?
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2019, 01:54:32 pm »
Firstly, I'd bet it's not your experience.
No, it is. Smart people generally don't complain about them because they either A) Know the material, so it isn't a problem. or B) Don't externalize blame and assign any failures to their own lack of preparation. That being said, there are times in which indeed it is dumb and there ARE dumb standardized tests out there that do little to prepare and don't pertain to relevant things and are a poor judge of competency.

But we have to remember why standardized tests are done- You have lots of people and limited time. You need a way to evaluate these things in an expedient AND impartial manner. And while there are exceptions and many kinds of intelligence, these tests generally do sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Quote
they induce stress and rely on a great "on the day" performance, rather than measuring general knowledge or intelligence as a whole.
That's another good thing. They can help evaluate who can bring it and how they react to stress and challenge. Now of course there are variances and that's why these things should NEVER be one-shot deals.

But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

Quote
I disagree that rote is your fundamentals in your sports analogy. I think you are massively reaching there to be honest.
Why?

Rote and knowledge are akin to fundamentals. They are a base from which you can add the other elements that make you a complete learner/athlete.