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  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 410

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Gouda cheese Be Best cheese
I've never had the impression hakwons treated me badly.
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 435

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.



Oh...hagwons that know what they are doing, in regards to TEACHING and TRAINING?

WOW..

Training happens at every job.  Stop being thick.  Have to teach people how to use the copy machine, fill them in on the parts that are specific to the hagwon functioning.  Happens in every job, I wasn't necessarily referring to actual education training as I can't speak for all hagwons, but there is a certain amount of time invested in getting the teacher up to speed on daily operations just like any job.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2638

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.



Oh...hagwons that know what they are doing, in regards to TEACHING and TRAINING?

WOW..

Training happens at every job.  Stop being thick.  Have to teach people how to use the copy machine, fill them in on the parts that are specific to the hagwon functioning.  Happens in every job, I wasn't necessarily referring to actual education training as I can't speak for all hagwons, but there is a certain amount of time invested in getting the teacher up to speed on daily operations just like any job.
I think you have no idea what goes on at a lot of other hogwons.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 254

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.



Oh...hagwons that know what they are doing, in regards to TEACHING and TRAINING?

WOW..

Training happens at every job.  Stop being thick.  Have to teach people how to use the copy machine, fill them in on the parts that are specific to the hagwon functioning.  Happens in every job, I wasn't necessarily referring to actual education training as I can't speak for all hagwons, but there is a certain amount of time invested in getting the teacher up to speed on daily operations just like any job.

OK, OK...the copy machine ( a bane in anyone's existence).  You earned that point.


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1065

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Being in demand is a form of job security. I think if you're teaching English in Korea, you can be pretty sure that you could still teach English in Korea 10 years from now. Beyond that, however, there's not much security. There's no guarantee that you'll have a job a year from now as positions generally go from contract to contract. The pay is stagnant and often includes or is tied to housing, which means that changing your job means you have to move with no idea of where you'll be living, or potentially negotiate with your employer to take over a housing contract tied to your previous employer.

I think teaching is a great job and I know many great teachers here, even people without formal qualifications related to education. I just don't think it's a great bet in Korea, anymore. If you're in your early 20s or just here for a couple of years at any age, disregard this. If you like teaching and enjoy the flexibility it offers (flexibility is different from security), by all means continue. If you're trying to save money or possibly start a family, I don't think a typical teacher's salary on an E2 is a great option.

Working full-time at the minimum wage now yields a monthly salary of 1.7 million KRW. Many places can beat this, like working full-time at a Nike store, which pays about 2.1 million a month plus benefits like money for gym memberships, holiday and performance bonuses, as well as paying your share of your pension payments.

That doesn't mean anyone working for 2.1 or 2.2 is a failure or a loser, but like many other industries back home, ELT in Korea just isn't paying that well despite requiring a university degree, additional certifications and reams of paperwork. When you consider the likelihood of a position to get cut or eliminated, or just to be not that good in the first place, I think it's certainly worth considering other options in Korea or overseas.

That's the problem right there.  Ten years ago, minimum wage here was 880,000 a month or so 10 years ago, when many hakwans were paying 2.1 to 2.3 with return flight.  It's why you want to punch some of these idiot newbies in the face for accepting still low offers and keeping the wages low for everyone.  Though I think there is plenty of low wage work here.  The Great Recession had disastrous effects on Korea's ESL industry.  It killed the golden era.  If you came here 10 to 20 years ago, you could roll in the money.  I heard about Korea by word of mouth.  Folks came back to the Maritimes (cause it's the poorest part of North America) and said, go to Korea - you can make a lot of money.  It sure isn't that way anymore.  But it's the fault of foreigners for caving in 2019 for the lowball offers. 

Korea is only now recovering from the disaster the last recession had.  Some wages are slowly increasing if you search a lot of Facebook ads.  If everyone would stand firm and refuse to collectively take jobs below a certain wage, it would go up.  It is starting to now as the US economy is finally doing well in some places and folks realize it is worth more there than here now.  Also, many senior teachers have been exiting to China and other places more recently.  It is still good for me.  But it won't be for much longer.  The sharp spike in the minimum wage is fueling a lot of inflation.

Eh, as a hagwon owner I can say most successful, teaching driven hagwons are prepared to pay for someone with advanced experience in teaching.  Our hagwon certainly does.  But to think that wages will just go up based on cost of living to hire the next child that just graduated university and wants to "figure their life out" by teaching in Korea....nah, they aren't going to get any more money. 

My attitude has always been, this is an EFL teaching job and we need teachers who are able to do that.  We are willing to pay for those who actually have training or experience to teach, but those candidates aren't usually that easy to find because A) you have to wade through all the "poli sci I want to teach English now" candidates and B) they are already being taken care of by their current hagwon because they recognize their contribution and reward them as such.

That's my two cents anyway.


So you charge the same as the what the average hakwon is charging 10 years ago and are paying the same wages then too. 


  • Kayos
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1223

    • March 31, 2016, 07:13:57 pm
    • NZ
I was in Japan 12 years ago when NOVA collapsed. Middle management was full of guys 40-50 years old, spent a decade or 2 in Japan. NOVA was the apotheosis of groundhogs day. Cushy and undemanding (also brain deadingly boring). All these guys were content to ride it out till retirement. Then it just vanished overnight and they were thrown into the churning seas, scrambling for the lifeboats of other jobs, competing with all the rest of us. Some of the saddest shit I ever did see. It haunts me. Those middle aged, dead eyed guys, who never thought they'd ever have to interview for a job again.

NOVA is who I worked for 3 - 4 years ago, before coming to Korea.
Some of the workers, and staff were great, the highest or 2nd highest person, and the guy training us, was really horrible. And they tried to bait and switch contracts.

To stay on topic, for public school, I think we have great job security during the duration of our contracts. Renewals not so much.
For hagwons, not too much security there.


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 435

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.



Oh...hagwons that know what they are doing, in regards to TEACHING and TRAINING?

WOW..

Training happens at every job.  Stop being thick.  Have to teach people how to use the copy machine, fill them in on the parts that are specific to the hagwon functioning.  Happens in every job, I wasn't necessarily referring to actual education training as I can't speak for all hagwons, but there is a certain amount of time invested in getting the teacher up to speed on daily operations just like any job.
I think you have no idea what goes on at a lot of other hogwons.

Considering my entire circle of friends are hagwon owners and workers...perhaps you should look in the mirror.  Many recruiters have a mandatory orientation period written into the contract with the hagwon.  Keep thinking you know more than me though....


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 435

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Being in demand is a form of job security. I think if you're teaching English in Korea, you can be pretty sure that you could still teach English in Korea 10 years from now. Beyond that, however, there's not much security. There's no guarantee that you'll have a job a year from now as positions generally go from contract to contract. The pay is stagnant and often includes or is tied to housing, which means that changing your job means you have to move with no idea of where you'll be living, or potentially negotiate with your employer to take over a housing contract tied to your previous employer.

I think teaching is a great job and I know many great teachers here, even people without formal qualifications related to education. I just don't think it's a great bet in Korea, anymore. If you're in your early 20s or just here for a couple of years at any age, disregard this. If you like teaching and enjoy the flexibility it offers (flexibility is different from security), by all means continue. If you're trying to save money or possibly start a family, I don't think a typical teacher's salary on an E2 is a great option.

Working full-time at the minimum wage now yields a monthly salary of 1.7 million KRW. Many places can beat this, like working full-time at a Nike store, which pays about 2.1 million a month plus benefits like money for gym memberships, holiday and performance bonuses, as well as paying your share of your pension payments.

That doesn't mean anyone working for 2.1 or 2.2 is a failure or a loser, but like many other industries back home, ELT in Korea just isn't paying that well despite requiring a university degree, additional certifications and reams of paperwork. When you consider the likelihood of a position to get cut or eliminated, or just to be not that good in the first place, I think it's certainly worth considering other options in Korea or overseas.

That's the problem right there.  Ten years ago, minimum wage here was 880,000 a month or so 10 years ago, when many hakwans were paying 2.1 to 2.3 with return flight.  It's why you want to punch some of these idiot newbies in the face for accepting still low offers and keeping the wages low for everyone.  Though I think there is plenty of low wage work here.  The Great Recession had disastrous effects on Korea's ESL industry.  It killed the golden era.  If you came here 10 to 20 years ago, you could roll in the money.  I heard about Korea by word of mouth.  Folks came back to the Maritimes (cause it's the poorest part of North America) and said, go to Korea - you can make a lot of money.  It sure isn't that way anymore.  But it's the fault of foreigners for caving in 2019 for the lowball offers. 

Korea is only now recovering from the disaster the last recession had.  Some wages are slowly increasing if you search a lot of Facebook ads.  If everyone would stand firm and refuse to collectively take jobs below a certain wage, it would go up.  It is starting to now as the US economy is finally doing well in some places and folks realize it is worth more there than here now.  Also, many senior teachers have been exiting to China and other places more recently.  It is still good for me.  But it won't be for much longer.  The sharp spike in the minimum wage is fueling a lot of inflation.

Eh, as a hagwon owner I can say most successful, teaching driven hagwons are prepared to pay for someone with advanced experience in teaching.  Our hagwon certainly does.  But to think that wages will just go up based on cost of living to hire the next child that just graduated university and wants to "figure their life out" by teaching in Korea....nah, they aren't going to get any more money. 

My attitude has always been, this is an EFL teaching job and we need teachers who are able to do that.  We are willing to pay for those who actually have training or experience to teach, but those candidates aren't usually that easy to find because A) you have to wade through all the "poli sci I want to teach English now" candidates and B) they are already being taken care of by their current hagwon because they recognize their contribution and reward them as such.

That's my two cents anyway.


So you charge the same as the what the average hakwon is charging 10 years ago and are paying the same wages then too.

I wasn't a hagwon owner ten years ago, so I have no idea about that, nor can I be accused of doing that since I wasn't charging anyone ten years ago.  I'm rereading and rereading to see what they even has to do with what I posted.  Please elaborate.


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 435

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.



Oh...hagwons that know what they are doing, in regards to TEACHING and TRAINING?

WOW..

Training happens at every job.  Stop being thick.  Have to teach people how to use the copy machine, fill them in on the parts that are specific to the hagwon functioning.  Happens in every job, I wasn't necessarily referring to actual education training as I can't speak for all hagwons, but there is a certain amount of time invested in getting the teacher up to speed on daily operations just like any job.

OK, OK...the copy machine ( a bane in anyone's existence).  You earned that point.

Well one isn't zero!  Yay for me, haha!  Have to admit, the copy/printer is a big part of the job!


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1065

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Being in demand is a form of job security. I think if you're teaching English in Korea, you can be pretty sure that you could still teach English in Korea 10 years from now. Beyond that, however, there's not much security. There's no guarantee that you'll have a job a year from now as positions generally go from contract to contract. The pay is stagnant and often includes or is tied to housing, which means that changing your job means you have to move with no idea of where you'll be living, or potentially negotiate with your employer to take over a housing contract tied to your previous employer.

I think teaching is a great job and I know many great teachers here, even people without formal qualifications related to education. I just don't think it's a great bet in Korea, anymore. If you're in your early 20s or just here for a couple of years at any age, disregard this. If you like teaching and enjoy the flexibility it offers (flexibility is different from security), by all means continue. If you're trying to save money or possibly start a family, I don't think a typical teacher's salary on an E2 is a great option.

Working full-time at the minimum wage now yields a monthly salary of 1.7 million KRW. Many places can beat this, like working full-time at a Nike store, which pays about 2.1 million a month plus benefits like money for gym memberships, holiday and performance bonuses, as well as paying your share of your pension payments.

That doesn't mean anyone working for 2.1 or 2.2 is a failure or a loser, but like many other industries back home, ELT in Korea just isn't paying that well despite requiring a university degree, additional certifications and reams of paperwork. When you consider the likelihood of a position to get cut or eliminated, or just to be not that good in the first place, I think it's certainly worth considering other options in Korea or overseas.

That's the problem right there.  Ten years ago, minimum wage here was 880,000 a month or so 10 years ago, when many hakwans were paying 2.1 to 2.3 with return flight.  It's why you want to punch some of these idiot newbies in the face for accepting still low offers and keeping the wages low for everyone.  Though I think there is plenty of low wage work here.  The Great Recession had disastrous effects on Korea's ESL industry.  It killed the golden era.  If you came here 10 to 20 years ago, you could roll in the money.  I heard about Korea by word of mouth.  Folks came back to the Maritimes (cause it's the poorest part of North America) and said, go to Korea - you can make a lot of money.  It sure isn't that way anymore.  But it's the fault of foreigners for caving in 2019 for the lowball offers. 

Korea is only now recovering from the disaster the last recession had.  Some wages are slowly increasing if you search a lot of Facebook ads.  If everyone would stand firm and refuse to collectively take jobs below a certain wage, it would go up.  It is starting to now as the US economy is finally doing well in some places and folks realize it is worth more there than here now.  Also, many senior teachers have been exiting to China and other places more recently.  It is still good for me.  But it won't be for much longer.  The sharp spike in the minimum wage is fueling a lot of inflation.

Eh, as a hagwon owner I can say most successful, teaching driven hagwons are prepared to pay for someone with advanced experience in teaching.  Our hagwon certainly does.  But to think that wages will just go up based on cost of living to hire the next child that just graduated university and wants to "figure their life out" by teaching in Korea....nah, they aren't going to get any more money. 

My attitude has always been, this is an EFL teaching job and we need teachers who are able to do that.  We are willing to pay for those who actually have training or experience to teach, but those candidates aren't usually that easy to find because A) you have to wade through all the "poli sci I want to teach English now" candidates and B) they are already being taken care of by their current hagwon because they recognize their contribution and reward them as such.

That's my two cents anyway.


So you charge the same as the what the average hakwon is charging 10 years ago and are paying the same wages then too.

I wasn't a hagwon owner ten years ago, so I have no idea about that, nor can I be accused of doing that since I wasn't charging anyone ten years ago.  I'm rereading and rereading to see what they even has to do with what I posted.  Please elaborate.

Are you charging the parents the exact same rate now as what hakwon owners were charging 10 years ago?  You knew what I meant.  If an owner is charging more and making 15 to 20 million a month, I am sure a couple hundred thousand won won't make or break a hakwon owner.  As I recall 10 years ago, the rate was 150,000 a month plus another 30k if you did a couple of tests a month.  So, by legal standards, an English school could charge 180,000 a month.  Many found loopholes and charged more.  Six classes, 2 sets, multiply the kids.  If you had 100 kids, 18 million won a month.  If you had 120 kids, even more.  A Korean hakwon teacher was 1.6 million a month (which was too low even back then), a foreign teacher was 2.2 a month, plus apt and flight.  I believe 80k a month to rent the copy machine.  All other expenses were relative and not too much.  (Rent non existent due to large key deposit.)
Let's say expenses were 5 million a month total and you made 20 million a month total, 15 million won income isn't too shabby.  Also, haggling over 2 or 3 hundred thousand won for an employee and even paying the Korean teacher better too won't break you.   

I'm not speaking so much to you as to the hakwon industry.  I had a friend running a hakwon 10 years ago and he gave me the inside scoop at the time.  Now most try to do one way flight bullshit and to keep wages as low as a decade ago.  I am sure they have raised prices or found other things to pass onto clients.  As I said, my friend charged the legal price.  Many academies were charging more than what the local education office allowed and found loopholes.  I knew of one charging 250,000 won a month.  They also paid their employees the same pocketing 20 million won or more a month.  This was late 2000's decade prices of course.  So, even back then, an employer could have easily paid more if they wished.  But 2.1 to 2.3 or even 2.5 if my friend wanted them to stay was no big deal to him and certainly went far as a salary 10 years ago.