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  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 3778

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
I imagine most korean havwon teachers, especially the unmarried ones under the age of 35, already have housing assistance (a.k.a mum and dad).

And these days, it’s not uncommon for businesses (even hagwons) to offer housing assistance to their korean employees.

Regarding Filipino teachers, there are plenty of well qualified teachers from the country with qualifications and experience that would put most E-2s to shame, and they would be willing to do the job for the same pay or cheaper in many cases. A lot of them have made inroads into China, Thailand and the Middle East. We’re just lucky here that the Korean government still has this superficial (and discriminatory) view of what a competent speaker/teacher’s passport should look like.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 06:14:33 am by waygo0k »


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 433

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea

As far as the Korean side of it, makes me nauseous that being in a smaller city we can't find good candidates.  We got a phone call just 30 minutes ago where the woman said she wanted to apply for the position.  My wife asked her if she had any experience and the all too familiar sentence came through the phone, "no, I just like English".  Korean's impression of teaching English is so bad that those even with a tiny bit of speaking ability think they can get a job at an English Hagwon and get paid to learn English.    It's annoying.  The good candidates only want to work part-time because they are perpetually studying for a civil service exam.  I can see them answering "I'm a civil service test studying student" when asked what they do for a living.  If only Moms and Dads would kick their kids out of the house here we might have some competent full-time teachers.

Then the other end of the spectrum we get a candidate in her late twenties that has been teaching since she graduated university and just quit a countryside hagwon where she was teaching 9 hours a day and getting 3 hours of sleep a night.  Our hagwon is nothing like that, we only have max 5 hours teaching because we want teachers to have well prepared material for their class.  Her salary demand, 3.6 million.   I'm so desperate if it was just me I might have said okay, but my wife just couldn't rationalize paying her money that a teacher who has been teaching for 20 years would be making.

From what Koreans have told me, Korean hagwon teachers make like 1.8m a month and get zero housing assistance, and they work similar hours to foreigners making a "paltry" 2.1m and getting a free apartment. If you pay that of course you aren't going to get the best applicants. Even if *you* wanted to pay more there isn't really a great field of candidates because it's mostly young women who want to get married (and stop working to raise a kid) or get a job as a real teacher.

That's correct.  1.8m is the general starting amount, but we've had some good teachers we've tried to woo with much more than that (not 3.6m lol).  I could see if they are 24 or 25, but I just don't get the 28 or 29 year-olds and their attitude about it.  I'm just going to keep taking this test where they only hire 20 people a year and hope i'm in the 1 percentile that gets hired eventually....please, start your career already.

As far as the difference between the foreign and Korean teachers, there are some benefits for Koreans that are more important to them that matter.  For example there are several insurances they can get and the pension is important for them to.   The foreigners who don't plan to stay don't care as much about that.  Still, I do agree it's lower than it should be for what they have to do, but on the flip side we've had teachers that don't even deserve that.  I just wish there were more skilled applicants to choose from in my area.  Probably there would be if pay started to rise for hagwon teachers.


  • KoreaBoo
  • Expert Waygook

    • 565

    • May 25, 2014, 04:00:42 pm
    • Korealand
VanIslander sounds like the grasshopper in the timeless cautionary tale...

https://www.dltk-teach.com/fables/grasshopper/mstory.htm

He's probably in his twenties. Cut him some slack. He'll hopefully grow up to be more cautious and conscious of the future. It's no joke having absolutely nothing to fall back on when disaster strikes (which, inevitably, it does in some form or another).
[/quote

He is in his late forties or early fifties I believe. 


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2635

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
I was in Japan 12 years ago when NOVA collapsed. Middle management was full of guys 40-50 years old, spent a decade or 2 in Japan. NOVA was the apotheosis of groundhogs day. Cushy and undemanding (also brain deadingly boring). All these guys were content to ride it out till retirement. Then it just vanished overnight and they were thrown into the churning seas, scrambling for the lifeboats of other jobs, competing with all the rest of us. Some of the saddest shit I ever did see. It haunts me. Those middle aged, dead eyed guys, who never thought they'd ever have to interview for a job again.

Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 409

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Gouda cheese Be Best cheese
Honestly, i don't think I'd go teach for anything less than 3 million, so job security? very little, for me 10 others no dpubt!
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
No sense of job security whatsoever. 

Once one realizes that, things can be a bit easier.  There is no need to play "hagwon hero" or pretend you are THAT important. 

I found it useful to keep one foot in the door and one foot at the ready.  There is very little actual loyalty...therefore, I treat the situation with equal opportunity.


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1269

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • Seogwipo, Jeju Island
    more
Hagwon hero? Lol, that's a new one.
Grasshopper ... indeed.

The world is full of people who don't enjoy what they do, and in 1st world USA half of workers live from paycheck to paycheck.

I feel fortunate to have gotten up eagerly on Mondays to teach for the last 15 years. I also feel SECURE because 3 years, 3 years, 7 years and almost 2 years now depicts my tenure at satisfying hagwons, and each and every time I chose where I wanted to live and went and got a job there. It's not hard to find a teaching gig here, but just be careful to get one that fits your needs.

Job security is not an issue (the subject of this thread). It is practically assured if you wanna work in hagwons. If you want salary increases or management role, that's a different thing altogether.

Hope you had a good weekend and share your enthusiasm with your students on Monday. Cheers!


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Hagwon hero? Lol, that's a new one.
Grasshopper ... indeed.

The world is full of people who don't enjoy what they do, and in 1st world USA half of workers live from paycheck to paycheck.

I feel fortunate to have gotten up eagerly on Mondays to teach for the last 15 years. I also feel SECURE because 3 years, 3 years, 7 years and almost 2 years now depicts my tenure at satisfying hagwons, and each and every time I chose where I wanted to live and went and got a job there. It's not hard to find a teaching gig here, but just be careful to get one that fits your needs.

Job security is not an issue (the subject of this thread). It is practically assured if you wanna work in hagwons. If you want salary increases or management role, that's a different thing altogether.

Hope you had a good weekend and share your enthusiasm with your students on Monday. Cheers!

"Grasshopper"?...if you are referring to yourself, in the context of never having hear the term before, OK.  But,  if you are referring to me,  well then I will say, while your reputation on Dave's ESL Cafe is worth noting, you are wrong in this case.

Knowing and understand the truth can ADD enthusiasm.  KNOWING hagwons for what they are adds a simplicity to the situation that can baffle most. 

While you are ruminating on your hagwon glory, in which case I do commend you on, (clap, clap), I'm thinking of the chaps that gave their all for the school they were with, for multiple years...only to get chucked to the curb for no good reason. Then to be replaced by someone who who could not differentiate between a rock and turd.  YOU, sir...do not constitute an objective majority. 

Hence, "job security"...an oxymoron in this country, in this industry. 

However, you can find peace the fact I will go into my classroom with enthusiasm.  But I know the reality...and I give it, its due equal opportunity...

..(like many of you here, do).


Job security isn't about being able to get another job easily, it's about keeping the one you currently have without worrying about getting fired at a moment's notice, knowing that if you do lose your job that you have an unemployment insurance fund of some sort waiting, knowing that your job pays into pension and other such things for when you hit retirement age/get sick/etc, and getting appropriately rewarded for your time spent at the place/work put in.

You can't honestly expect to keep getting new jobs for the rest of your life, or expect to be perfectly healthy for the rest of your life either. Sure you're happy now, and apparently have been the last 15 years (I'd expect your Korean to be absolutely fluent at this stage), but think about what lies ahead as you get older in the next 15 years.


  • fishead
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1139

    • April 23, 2010, 07:58:05 am
    • Yangju Korea
Do you get some type of unemployment fund if you lose your job? Are you part of a union? Can you receive pension in Korea once you retire from your job? There are your answers. You're better off working in the West.

Yes you can get Unemployment insurance if you are on an F visa. You have no chance of ever forming or surviving in a union. The odds of Wall mart in the west getting a Union is way more likely. Unemploment insurence is 50 % of your salary for 5 months. Unless you own your own housing and are on a wait list for a really good job this is not great.

The only way you can have good job security is to be self employed and do something like an Afterschool job or part time hogwan on the side. The employement packages for low level hogwans and public schools don't offer much stability when you consider you lose your home and medical insurence when your contract is discontinued. Owning your own hogwan or running a study room is another good option. Another problem is that finding a good job after turning 45 becomes very challenging and you have to take pretty much anything you can get.


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 409

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Gouda cheese Be Best cheese
The world is full of people who don't enjoy what they do, and in 1st world USA half of workers live from paycheck to paycheck.

78%

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/01/11/live-paycheck-to-paycheck-government-shutdown/#104c99e84f10
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 433

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Hagwon hero? Lol, that's a new one.
Grasshopper ... indeed.

The world is full of people who don't enjoy what they do, and in 1st world USA half of workers live from paycheck to paycheck.

I feel fortunate to have gotten up eagerly on Mondays to teach for the last 15 years. I also feel SECURE because 3 years, 3 years, 7 years and almost 2 years now depicts my tenure at satisfying hagwons, and each and every time I chose where I wanted to live and went and got a job there. It's not hard to find a teaching gig here, but just be careful to get one that fits your needs.

Job security is not an issue (the subject of this thread). It is practically assured if you wanna work in hagwons. If you want salary increases or management role, that's a different thing altogether.

Hope you had a good weekend and share your enthusiasm with your students on Monday. Cheers!

"Grasshopper"?...if you are referring to yourself, in the context of never having hear the term before, OK.  But,  if you are referring to me,  well then I will say, while your reputation on Dave's ESL Cafe is worth noting, you are wrong in this case.

Knowing and understand the truth can ADD enthusiasm.  KNOWING hagwons for what they are adds a simplicity to the situation that can baffle most. 

While you are ruminating on your hagwon glory, in which case I do commend you on, (clap, clap), I'm thinking of the chaps that gave their all for the school they were with, for multiple years...only to get chucked to the curb for no good reason. Then to be replaced by someone who who could not differentiate between a rock and turd.  YOU, sir...do not constitute an objective majority.

Hence, "job security"...an oxymoron in this country, in this industry. 

However, you can find peace the fact I will go into my classroom with enthusiasm.  But I know the reality...and I give it, its due equal opportunity...

..(like many of you here, do).

So basically, you are saying that the half a dozen people you know that lost their jobs after "giving their all" are substantially more relevant than the half a dozen people that VanIslander knows that have thrived in long lasting hagwon relationships?  Please....neither one of you constitute a majority, but i'm going to use logic to side with VanIslander. 

It's incredibly annoying to change Western teachers.  You've got contracts to sign, a ton of leg work to get criminal background history done and trips to the Education department to fill out paperwork.  Then there are orientations, growing pains all of that stuff.  Not to mention the extra possible costs incurred.  Any hagwon owner who has a teacher worth their salt is mostly likely going to hold on to them barring the other random reasons they would get rid of them.  Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining, and I've yet to meet a teacher who lost their job say, "Well, I was being lazy and didn't care, so this was due."  Of course they say they gave it their all.  And just giving your all doesn't = good teacher anyway.  Just really surprised you are shooting down VanIslander with your own mumbo jumbo full of holes.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2635

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Who knows the proportions of good, bad or neutral employers? But shady, illegal, unethical shit does on in the private education industry here at a level far above anything I've experienced working in the West. Is it 50/50 good and bad? 90/10? No one here knows and everything we say is anecdotal. But going by posts here, reddit, facebook employment law advice pages etc, it is common enough that only a fool would bank theirs or their families future on it being here tomorrow.

And this goes for public schools and universities too. See: Incheon cutting all NETs with a few days notice because they bankrupted themselves by hosting the Asian Games.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Quote
So basically, you are saying that the half a dozen people you know that lost their jobs after "giving their all" are substantially more relevant than the half a dozen people that VanIslander knows that have thrived in long lasting hagwon relationships?  Please....neither one of you constitute a majority, but i'm going to use logic to side with VanIslander.

It's incredibly annoying to change Western teachers.  You've got contracts to sign, a ton of leg work to get criminal background history done and trips to the Education department to fill out paperwork.  Then there are orientations, growing pains all of that stuff.  Not to mention the extra possible costs incurred.  Any hagwon owner who has a teacher worth their salt is mostly likely going to hold on to them barring the other random reasons they would get rid of them. Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining, and I've yet to meet a teacher who lost their job say, "Well, I was being lazy and didn't care, so this was due."  Of course they say they gave it their all.  And just giving your all doesn't = good teacher anyway.  Just really surprised you are shooting down VanIslander with your own mumbo jumbo full of holes

So...how is life on your flat earth?   

Anyway, ONE problem is, there are not too many hagwon owners worth THEIR salt...admit it, backslapper. 

Quote
Eh, as a hagwon owner I can say most successful, teaching driven hagwons are prepared to pay for someone with advanced experience in teaching.  Our hagwon certainly does.  But to think that wages will just go up based on cost of living to hire the next child that just graduated university and wants to "figure their life out" by teaching in Korea....nah, they aren't going to get any more money.

My attitude has always been, this is an EFL teaching job and we need teachers who are able to do that.  We are willing to pay for those who actually have training or experience to teach, but those candidates aren't usually that easy to find because A) you have to wade through all the "poli sci I want to teach English now" candidates and B) they are already being taken care of by their current hagwon because they recognize their contribution and reward them as such.

That's my two cents anyway

Now, this post, I can see some validity.  However, depending on the hours and workload, 2.1 is rather low, even for a new sprout.  However, the way the OP characterized this sort of person is not exactly fair to all...though, there are some truths to stereotypes.  But again, the fact of the matter is, teachers are actually being taken care of by their hogwan...as WE know it, are in a clear minority.  If it were NOT the  case, Korea would not have the reputation it has.  If that were not enough, even hagwons are now only doing reimbursed, one way flights..at the end of the contract. 

Korea is not that great and folks figure it out...when they realize the fact of the matter is, there IS no security in this industry, in this country.  Folks can deflect, twist and shout about, and back-slap all they want...but the song remains the same.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 02:21:34 pm by NorthStar »


Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 


Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 433

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Of course.  If I tell teacher A that 3 moms called from your class and said it's too noisy and their student couldn't focus because you have bad classroom management, it still doesn't mean teacher A is going to tell his friends and family that's why he didn't get renewed.  Even less of a chance the classroom management will be fixed in one day as well.

Not to mention these are 1 year contracts and in some cases....there isn't a whole lot of time to get your classes back on track if you are clueless in the classroom management department.  I'm imagining some hagwons just figure they will hope for better luck on the next applicant and don't want to spend what little time they have teaching teachers.  They want them to come with those skills already intact, and with many they are learning on the job. 

Hagwon owners aren't oblivious to moms and their craziness.  Some of them expect miracles.  Can't ever please them all.


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 433

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Quote
Teacher's rarely have any idea of what mom's are saying about them and whether they are complaining,

Isn't it a good idea to let them know? I mean, if it's something important, obviously.

Boss:  "Teacher"
Teacher:  "Yes?"

Boss:  "Minsu's mom called...she angry at you. She complain".

Teacher:  "Really?  Why is that?".

Boss:  "You made Minsu do her homework.  You no give Minsu a pencil.  You make students speak.  Students scared to speak Engish because you make them practice.  You no give Minsu a cookie from your own lunch.  Minsu only get 90% on test..Jiyung get 100%.   Minsu mom think you are bad teacher because you no love Minsu". 

Teacher:  "Chow?".



 

I think leaponover would be a bit more articulate than that.  :wink:

Maybe only a tiny bit, haha.  Anyway this is an obvious example of what Western teachers think mom's complain about and not what actually happens.  Probably the teacher gave a worksheet made by Domingo in El Salvador because he didn't feel like making his own and Minsu didn't understand it because it was riddled with errors and mixed with things Minsu hadn't learned yet.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and forth with it.  There isn't one blanket statement to describe every teacher and every hagwon in Korea.  I just know from a time and money standpoint that hagwons would love to hang on to those hardworking and talented teachers rather than lose them to someone they have to train and start from scratch with.  Is that statement really that hard to believe?  Having a Western teacher that Moms trust is like gold in this industry.



Oh...hagwons that know what they are doing, in regards to TEACHING and TRAINING?

WOW..