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  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3907

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2018, 12:11:10 pm »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2018, 02:05:15 pm »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.

But they do the same for dangerous sports.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2018, 08:05:44 am »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.

But they do the same for dangerous sports.

What's amazing is all these banning people seem incapable of spending 2 seconds to think of a situation in which their own rationale can be turned on something they like. A clear sign of emotional-disgust based thinking and retroactive justification vs. rational analysis.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3907

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2018, 08:14:50 am »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.

But they do the same for dangerous sports.
Many insurance policies (including Korean national insurance) exclude dangerous sports. Sport federations (I can attest to Korean Equestrian and Canadian Rugby, Soccer, and Baseball) have thier own policies, often included with club membership.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2018, 08:20:41 am »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.

But they do the same for dangerous sports.
Many insurance policies (including Korean national insurance) exclude dangerous sports. Sport federations (I can attest to Korean Equestrian and Canadian Rugby, Soccer, and Baseball) have thier own policies, often included with club membership.

So I guess it's just the tax payer that pays to scrape your face off the ground then.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3480

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2018, 10:36:42 pm »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

It's not only about saving lives, they could do that by making everyone drive at 20 mph. The opposition to seat belts wasn't because people particularly wanted not to wear seat belts in cars either. It was because of the principle of government forcing people by law to protect themselves, which was a dangerous precedent.
That's complete BS. The biggest opposition came from car manufacturers who said they'd have to raise prices which would in turn harm their sales.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3480

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2018, 10:39:21 pm »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.

But they do the same for dangerous sports.
Many insurance policies (including Korean national insurance) exclude dangerous sports. Sport federations (I can attest to Korean Equestrian and Canadian Rugby, Soccer, and Baseball) have thier own policies, often included with club membership.
Yes, and that's one good reason to join such clubs. One of the things included in fees for organized sporting events like cycling fondos is insurance.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3480

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2018, 10:40:43 pm »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

The seatbelt argument breaks down when you consider that tax payers/insurance rate payers end up paying to scrape your face off the road.

But they do the same for dangerous sports.

What's amazing is all these banning people seem incapable of spending 2 seconds to think of a situation in which their own rationale can be turned on something they like. A clear sign of emotional-disgust based thinking and retroactive justification vs. rational analysis.
Now that's rational?!?


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2018, 03:23:00 am »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

It's not only about saving lives, they could do that by making everyone drive at 20 mph. The opposition to seat belts wasn't because people particularly wanted not to wear seat belts in cars either. It was because of the principle of government forcing people by law to protect themselves, which was a dangerous precedent.
That's complete BS. The biggest opposition came from car manufacturers who said they'd have to raise prices which would in turn harm their sales.

No, it's you who is wrong. Cars had seat belts for a long time before cars were required to have air bags or automatic belts, which the motor industry was against because of the costs. People were opposed to seat belts for the reason Eggie mentioned, as well as because they weren't considered safe.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1629

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2018, 09:37:38 am »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?

It's not only about saving lives, they could do that by making everyone drive at 20 mph. The opposition to seat belts wasn't because people particularly wanted not to wear seat belts in cars either. It was because of the principle of government forcing people by law to protect themselves, which was a dangerous precedent.
That's complete BS. The biggest opposition came from car manufacturers who said they'd have to raise prices which would in turn harm their sales.

No, it's you who is wrong. Cars had seat belts for a long time before cars were required to have air bags or automatic belts, which the motor industry was against because of the costs. People were opposed to seat belts for the reason Eggie mentioned, as well as because they weren't considered safe.
I can see two people who need to read Unsafe at Any Speed.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2018, 09:54:44 am »
From Wikipedia

Quote
Front seat belts were compulsory equipment on all new cars registered in the UK from 1972, although it did not become compulsory for them to be worn until 1983.



Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2018, 10:17:32 am »
I'm tapping out. Seeing what was posted since last Friday, I've completely lost interest.

Have fun, guys.


  • Kayos
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1223

    • March 31, 2016, 07:13:57 pm
    • NZ
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2018, 10:23:56 am »
It's as big a factor as what kind of music they play or if there's a dart board or a pool table. Booze and smokes go together like fish&chips.

With light drinking, it's not a big deal. But there's certain kind of drinking, usually (not always) among good friends, where there's a lot of banter or debate or some kind of game/activity going on, and a smoke just punctuates it. You don't have to break to go outside. The cigarette actually is part of the gesturing and emphasis of points, the way it really seems to focus the mind when making a point or loosen everyone up and get two people who just met to make a connection.

I really think that post=10PM, there's no reason a bar shouldn't be able to choose to allow smoking. We can quibble about the hour, but I think there's a certain point where it's clear that "health" is not any concern.

They go together... for smokers. Not for everyone else.

Everything you've described is a personal preference for a very specific type of person, not for the general population. It's a trend, not a cornerstone of the alcohol industry.

And health is always a concern. It just isn't for some people.

And please keep your fish very, very, very far from my chips! D:


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2018, 01:09:56 pm »
Back on topic.  In all demographics, more people don't smoke than do.  Why should a minority be listened to over a majority, especially on an issue that can seriously damage people's health?


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2018, 01:24:29 pm »
Back on topic.  In all demographics, more people don't smoke than do.  Why should a minority be listened to over a majority, especially on an issue that can seriously damage people's health?

If it seriously damaged other people's health, and they had no opportunity to avoid it, it wouldn't matter whether there was a minority or not, it should be banned.

If there's no proven health risk, or people have the choice to avoid the thing, the nuisance value has to be balanced against people's freedoms. E.g. if 49% of people like doing something legal very much and 51% of the population finds it mildly irritating, should that 51% be able to get it banned? I don't think so.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2018, 01:52:09 pm »
It still baffles me that the smoking ban people don't consider the fact that the same justifications can (and likely will) be used against something they enjoy.


  • Mister Tim
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1486

    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
    • SK
Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2018, 01:54:54 pm »
It still baffles me that the smoking ban people don't consider the fact that the same justifications can (and likely will) be used against something they enjoy.

You must have one heck of a "gotcha!" card ready and waiting to go, the way you keep reiterating that point.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2018, 02:00:37 pm »
You must have one heck of a "gotcha!" card ready and waiting to go, the way you keep reiterating that point.
Nah, it wasn't the best and I already played it- the whole skydiving EXTREME!!!!! sports thing.

It really does baffle me that people don't even stop to think about that stuff before they form an opinion. People say I'm a reflexive contrarian. That's not true in one sense, but it is true in another. Any opinion, I reflexively and naturally as a force of habit, try to think of a "shoe on the other foot" circumstance or alternative explanation or something that would disprove whatever (typically strongly and simply worded) theory someone has. It's just natural and frankly, if someone doesn't do that or is incapable of doing that, they aren't the brightest bulb.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2018, 02:10:31 pm »
You must have one heck of a "gotcha!" card ready and waiting to go, the way you keep reiterating that point.
Nah, it wasn't the best and I already played it- the whole skydiving EXTREME!!!!! sports thing.

It really does baffle me that people don't even stop to think about that stuff before they form an opinion. People say I'm a reflexive contrarian. That's not true in one sense, but it is true in another. Any opinion, I reflexively and naturally as a force of habit, try to think of a "shoe on the other foot" circumstance or alternative explanation or something that would disprove whatever (typically strongly and simply worded) theory someone has. It's just natural and frankly, if someone doesn't do that or is incapable of doing that, they aren't the brightest bulb.

It's the same as the Gavin McInnes story - 'I don't like him, so I'm fine about him being banned.'


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2018, 02:28:51 pm »
Or people who say, "I'm fine with Facebook collecting all my details and information, I have nothing to hide."