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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2018, 12:56:29 pm »
I don't smoke.
I've never smoked.

But I would like to honor the wishes of veterans who were willing to put their lives at risk to protect our freedoms. If the majority of them want their social club to allow smoking, then I am the last one to stand in their way.

The problem with having a vote on it is that some people, maybe the majority of people will vote only on what makes their own lives more convenient. It's similar to the discussion on drinking in public areas, e.g Parks. If only 20% of citizens want to drink in public, the remaining 80% may think 'has public drinking ever been a nuisance to me personally? Yes, I nearly stepped in some vomit once, so I'll vote against it' They don't consider the effect on society as a whole or think about whether next time the vote might be on something they like doing. Drinking on planes/at the airport will be next. As soon as the majority don't do it and they have a vote on it, it's gone.

Thatís how democracy works.

Other options are: whatever the King/Party leadership/etc wants is how it is.

It's not how democracy works. For years the majority in the UK have been in favour of capital punishment but no government has reinstated it. The government has to make decisions on what the majority might be in favour of but what might be bad for society.

The majority? Really? Please show me the evidence. 


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2018, 01:00:49 pm »
Dropped below 50% for the first time in 2015 apparently.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32061822


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2018, 09:17:18 am »
It's as big a factor as what kind of music they play or if there's a dart board or a pool table. Booze and smokes go together like fish&chips.

With light drinking, it's not a big deal. But there's certain kind of drinking, usually (not always) among good friends, where there's a lot of banter or debate or some kind of game/activity going on, and a smoke just punctuates it. You don't have to break to go outside. The cigarette actually is part of the gesturing and emphasis of points, the way it really seems to focus the mind when making a point or loosen everyone up and get two people who just met to make a connection.

I really think that post=10PM, there's no reason a bar shouldn't be able to choose to allow smoking. We can quibble about the hour, but I think there's a certain point where it's clear that "health" is not any concern.

They go together... for smokers. Not for everyone else.

Everything you've described is a personal preference for a very specific type of person, not for the general population. It's a trend, not a cornerstone of the alcohol industry.

And health is always a concern. It just isn't for some people.


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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2018, 09:56:04 am »
The only way forbidding smoking in a bar would cause it to lose any business is if the bar down the street still allows it. It's a non-issue if all bars forbid it. Smokers will choose drinking & smoking over drinking & not smoking, but they'll also choose drinking & not smoking over not drinking at all.

EDIT: I thought I was saying something relevant to something someone else had already said in this thread, but reading back over it, I'm not sure it was.  :laugh:

Oh well. I'll leave it anyway.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 09:57:57 am by Mister Tim »


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2018, 10:19:22 am »
But why shouldn't we be allowed to operate bars that cater to smokers?
There is not an impartial, rational impulse behind banning such establishments. At that point it is searching for retroactive justification to make a law based on disgust and the inner desire to control people.

HOW ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A BAR WITH SMOKING?


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2018, 10:28:49 am »
But why shouldn't we be allowed to operate bars that cater to smokers?
There is not an impartial, rational impulse behind banning such establishments. At that point it is searching for retroactive justification to make a law based on disgust and the inner desire to control people.

HOW ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A BAR WITH SMOKING?

It's the same mindset that has allowed consenting BSDM to be made illegal recently in the UK. IE, we know it's consensual, we know it doesn't harm anyone else who hasn't consented, but we also think it's bad for you, so we're still going to ban it. Nanny state.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2018, 12:04:09 pm »
It's the same mindset that has allowed consenting BSDM to be made illegal recently in the UK. IE, we know it's consensual, we know it doesn't harm anyone else who hasn't consented, but we also think it's bad for you, so we're still going to ban it. Nanny state.
You know what's funny? Is now that everyone is vaping, people want to ban that too and the ridiculous justifications they come up with. Give me a freaking break, you don't want to ban it because it's a danger to the children or whatever it is. You want to ban it because people are having a good time enjoying something you don't like and can't participate in and that makes you angry and jealous. It upsets your concept of "fair" in this world. "Oh my goodness, these smokers have found a way to get their fix AND dramatically reduce the health risks....Oooooo that makes me so mad that they're getting away with it!!!!!"

Seriously, this is the same crowd that gave us Prohibition, The War on Drugs, The Moral Panics of the 1980s, The Violent Video Games/Gangsta Rap/Marilyn Manson Panics of the 90s. And now the Tobacco Panic and the Vaping Panic and the SJWs.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2018, 12:38:29 pm »
Drinking on planes is next (compromises the safety of cabin crew) guaranteed.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2018, 01:02:55 pm »
Uh, I'm not going to read all of this, but:

Smoking should be banned indoors everywhere, except for inspected, regulated, well ventilated smoking rooms.

Prolonged, repeated exposure to second hand smoke is a real hazard to one's health.

"But! Customers and employees don't have to visit or work at a place that allows smoking!"

Incorrect. Employees feel pressured to do things they know or feel are unsafe when required to by their employers. This is not limited to the service industry. This is why we have workplace safety regulations - to protect employees so the onus isn't on them to stand up for their right to safety at work. An employee at a bar that allows smoking may choose to accept or ignore the dangers rather than confront their boss about it or search for a new job. They almost may not know about the dangers. Banning it protects employees.

Customers, whatever - if you go into a bar or restaurant that allows smoking, nobody's forcing you to. That's your decision.

Also, a whiff of cigarette smoke on the street, even if it happens multiple times per day, is not going to have any measurable impact on your health. Breathing second hand smoke in an enclosed area on a regular basis will affect your health.





Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2018, 01:09:12 pm »
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Incorrect. Employees feel pressured to do things they know or feel are unsafe when required to by their employers. This is not limited to the service industry. This is why we have workplace safety regulations - to protect employees so the onus isn't on them to stand up for their right to safety at work. An employee at a bar that allows smoking may choose to accept or ignore the dangers rather than confront their boss about it or search for a new job. They almost may not know about the dangers. Banning it protects employees

Surely if the employee is told about the dangers when applying for the job this would negate this objection. There are a lot more dangerous jobs out there than working in a smoky bar that people do every day.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2018, 01:29:45 pm »
Employees feel pressured to do things they know or feel are unsafe when required to by their employers. This is not limited to the service industry. This is why we have workplace safety regulations - to protect employees so the onus isn't on them to stand up for their right to safety at work. An employee at a bar that allows smoking may choose to accept or ignore the dangers rather than confront their boss about it or search for a new job. They almost may not know about the dangers. Banning it protects employees.

Just because strip clubs exist does not mean your boss will force you to take off your clothes unless the government bans strip clubs.

What about a bar that specifically is set up to cater to smokers? Surely workers can work at bars and clubs and restaurants where smoking is a known, established part of the risk that comes with the job (like dust and coal mining or fire and firefighting). I can understand banning it, in say restaurants that close before 10pm.

Also, lots of service people WANT to serve smokers. Why? Smokers on average are better tippers than non-smokers.

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Customers, whatever - if you go into a bar or restaurant that allows smoking, nobody's forcing you to. That's your decision.

Agreed, I just can't accept any argument for banning smoking in a private bar, club, or in a late-night restaurant (outside of like a Steak N Shake or Waffle House- chain type places) where the clientele is a bunch off people getting effed up. And I really don't get how anyone thinks they're forced to be there or that they should be able to go into such places and NOT deal with smoke. It's like walking into a cat cafe and saying there shouldn't be any cats because you have an allergy. I have the right not to be exposed to a health hazard!

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Also, a whiff of cigarette smoke on the street, even if it happens multiple times per day, is not going to have any measurable impact on your health. Breathing second hand smoke in an enclosed area on a regular basis will affect your health.

Agreed here and thank you for acknowledging that. Like seriously, at that point we might as well ban outdoor BBQing.

Maybe we can get the non-smoking version of BBQ Becky to wig out and maybe then people will finally lighten up.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2018, 01:46:50 pm »
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Incorrect. Employees feel pressured to do things they know or feel are unsafe when required to by their employers. This is not limited to the service industry. This is why we have workplace safety regulations - to protect employees so the onus isn't on them to stand up for their right to safety at work. An employee at a bar that allows smoking may choose to accept or ignore the dangers rather than confront their boss about it or search for a new job. They almost may not know about the dangers. Banning it protects employees

Surely if the employee is told about the dangers when applying for the job this would negate this objection. There are a lot more dangerous jobs out there than working in a smoky bar that people do every day.

How would it negate this objection? I'll reiterate: employees are often pressured to do things they know are unsafe by their employers. The onus should be on employers to provide a safe workplace. An person who's looking for work may be willing to work in an unsafe environment, if they need the money.


Here's a rough analogy: you know how asbestos is bad for you? Let's imagine, for a moment, that we're somewhere where it's not a banned material for building purposes. You're broke, you need a paycheque to feed yourself and your family, so you take a construction job. The boss says, "Hey, you're going to be working with asbestos, but you're cool with that, 'cause you took the job, right?" You're now in a position where your options are unemployment or doing something you know is hazardous to your health. But you've got a family to feed. Not much of a choice.

Smoking bans don't exist to protect customers. They exist to protect employees.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2018, 01:50:14 pm »
Quote
Incorrect. Employees feel pressured to do things they know or feel are unsafe when required to by their employers. This is not limited to the service industry. This is why we have workplace safety regulations - to protect employees so the onus isn't on them to stand up for their right to safety at work. An employee at a bar that allows smoking may choose to accept or ignore the dangers rather than confront their boss about it or search for a new job. They almost may not know about the dangers. Banning it protects employees

Surely if the employee is told about the dangers when applying for the job this would negate this objection. There are a lot more dangerous jobs out there than working in a smoky bar that people do every day.

How would it negate this objection? I'll reiterate: employees are often pressured to do things they know are unsafe by their employers. The onus should be on employers to provide a safe workplace. An person who's looking for work may be willing to work in an unsafe environment, if they need the money.


Here's a rough analogy: you know how asbestos is bad for you? Let's imagine, for a moment, that we're somewhere where it's not a banned material for building purposes. You're broke, you need a paycheque to feed yourself and your family, so you take a construction job. The boss says, "Hey, you're going to be working with asbestos, but you're cool with that, 'cause you took the job, right?" You're now in a position where your options are unemployment or doing something you know is hazardous to your health. But you've got a family to feed. Not much of a choice.

Smoking bans don't exist to protect customers. They exist to protect employees.

By that logic, as we've mentioned before, alcohol is dangerous for employees (people getting assaulted by customers) so ban that in the work place as well.  Your asbestos analogy was of something that was introduced after the employee agreed to work there, which wasn't what I was talking about.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:53:03 pm by eggieguffer »


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2018, 01:55:49 pm »
Quote
Incorrect. Employees feel pressured to do things they know or feel are unsafe when required to by their employers. This is not limited to the service industry. This is why we have workplace safety regulations - to protect employees so the onus isn't on them to stand up for their right to safety at work. An employee at a bar that allows smoking may choose to accept or ignore the dangers rather than confront their boss about it or search for a new job. They almost may not know about the dangers. Banning it protects employees

Surely if the employee is told about the dangers when applying for the job this would negate this objection. There are a lot more dangerous jobs out there than working in a smoky bar that people do every day.

How would it negate this objection? I'll reiterate: employees are often pressured to do things they know are unsafe by their employers. The onus should be on employers to provide a safe workplace. An person who's looking for work may be willing to work in an unsafe environment, if they need the money.


Here's a rough analogy: you know how asbestos is bad for you? Let's imagine, for a moment, that we're somewhere where it's not a banned material for building purposes. You're broke, you need a paycheque to feed yourself and your family, so you take a construction job. The boss says, "Hey, you're going to be working with asbestos, but you're cool with that, 'cause you took the job, right?" You're now in a position where your options are unemployment or doing something you know is hazardous to your health. But you've got a family to feed. Not much of a choice.

Smoking bans don't exist to protect customers. They exist to protect employees.

By that logic, as we've mentioned before, alcohol is dangerous for employees, so ban that in the work place as well.

Alcohol is banned in most workplaces.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2018, 02:02:08 pm »
It's not banned in private clubs, which is what I thought we were talking about.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2018, 02:11:04 pm »
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By that logic, as we've mentioned before, alcohol is dangerous for employees (people getting assaulted by customers) so ban that in the work place as well.  Your asbestos analogy was of something that was introduced after the employee agreed to work there, which wasn't what I was talking about.

If, as I explained in my setup of the analogy, that we were in a place where asbestos wasn't banned, they employee would obviously expect to be working with it in an construction job, just as an employee in the service industry could expect to be exposed to second hand smoke if smoking isn't banned. It's not like the employer suddenly sprung it on them out of the blue.

There's a reason why construction workers are required to wear safety equipment, and why motorcyclists (and cyclists) are required to wear helmets, and why seat belts are mandatory. People are dumb and bad at taking care of themselves. Especially when it comes down to having a job or not.

Most private clubs have security staff on site to protect staff in the event of a customer becoming violent. Again, it's not perfect, but it is a safety measure.



Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2018, 02:27:10 pm »
I do think there is some merit to the argument that employees COULD POTENTIALLY be 'forced', which is why I'm fine with bans in say, restaurants that close before 10. I think that's a reasonable compromise if it lets late night dive bars, greasy spoons, and clubs permit smoking. No reason someone working at a Bill Knapp's or Cracker Barrel should have to work in smoking conditions, given the clientele often consists of families.


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 05:34:43 pm »
Agreed here and thank you for acknowledging that. Like seriously, at that point we might as well ban outdoor BBQing.

Maybe we can get the non-smoking version of BBQ Becky to wig out and maybe then people will finally lighten up.

Except that outdoor BBQing is banned from most places, lol. There are designated areas for it.  :undecided:

Outdoor BBQing is also far less common than public smoking.

Besides, no one is talking about outright banning the act altogether. This is about controlling where it's done.

By that logic, as we've mentioned before, alcohol is dangerous for employees (people getting assaulted by customers) so ban that in the work place as well.  Your asbestos analogy was of something that was introduced after the employee agreed to work there, which wasn't what I was talking about.

This is a slippery slope fallacy. People draw lines, and they evaluate where to draw those lines based on how much risk and damage is involved, and how much control people have over that risk and damage. Based on the applying logic, why have laws and regulations at all?

People don't get alcohol into their systems simply by being around drinkers, and they've got laws and regulations that were created specifically for the alcohol industry, which, once they went into effect, dramatically improved societal conditions. It's heavily controlled in many places, but people are still happy with it. Staff in bars and clubs are normally forbidden from drinking on the job, too.

Breathing in carcinogens, on the other hand, is an involuntary act, while smoking is not. If you're around smoke, you're breathing it in, whether you want to or not.

For everything else, what based has already said.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 05:55:47 pm by Chinguetti »


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 06:12:55 pm »
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This is a slippery slope fallacy. People draw lines, and they evaluate where to draw those lines based on how much risk and damage is involved, and how much control people have over that risk and damage. Based on the applying logic, why have laws and regulations at all?

It's not a slippery slope fallacy. The argument was that employees' safety overrides everything else. If you can ban something in your club that'll make the workers safer, but still enable you to keep the club open, you should do it. If this is not the case there's an argument for striking a balance between worker's safety and customers' freedom, as you say. You could argue that in the case of smoking, safety trumps freedom, fair enough, but that's another argument. I'd argue that if the employees are aware of the risk beforehand and choose to work there, safety shouldn't trump freedom.

Also you only have to look at freedom v safety over the last 50 years to see it's very much a slippery slope, showing no signs of stopping. Even 20 years ago, banning people from smoking outside would have seemed absurd. As I mentioned before, there's a very good chance flight attendants/pilots will get alcohol banned on flights due to safety concerns and then what's to stop bar workers asking for the same thing?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 06:47:04 pm by eggieguffer »


Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2018, 06:49:31 pm »
It's not a slippery slope fallacy. The argument was that employees' safety overrides everything else. If you can ban something in your club that'll make the workers safer, but still enable you to keep the club open, you should do it. If this is not the case there's an argument for striking a balance between worker's safety and customers' freedom, as you say. You could argue that in the case of smoking, safety trumps freedom, fair enough, but that's another argument. I'd argue that if the employees are aware of the risk beforehand and choose to work there, safety shouldn't trump freedom.

Also you only have to look at freedom v safety over the last 50 years to see it's very much a slippery slope, showing no signs of stopping. Even 20 years ago, banning people from smoking outside would have seemed absurd. As I mentioned before, there's a very good chance flight attendants/pilots will get alcohol banned on flights due to safety concerns and then what's to stop bar workers asking for the same thing?

It is if you're trying to use it as a basis for arguing, "If you do this, then what's to stop this and this from happening?" while ignoring the key differences between why this happens vs why that happens.

Banning alcohol from a club could be justifed by many as a safety precaution. But it's also considered unnecessary if the club is populated by adults and strictly enforces the regulations (both for safety and for alcohol distribution/consumption) as dictated by the law. The risk assessment is considered adequately low enough to allow for it so long as its sale and consumption is kept closely monitored and controlled. If people could get "contact drunk" by being around alcohol, though, you can bet that this would dramatically change the law.

Banning smoking is for health AND safety because no one can help breathing it in, and people shouldn't be forced to.

Aaaaand, we're also not talking about outright bans, or at least I'm not. I'm talking about banning it to designated areas in places where both smokers and non-smokers congregate. Other controlled substances (and activities) are treated the same way, when they have a direct impact on others. This is why it's illegal to drink and drive. This is why people can't strip in the middle of the street. This is why you enjoy the many protections that prevent others from abusing you with their "freedoms".

If a place of business decides that having and maintaining a designated smoking area is not worth the cost and effort, that's its choice.

As for freedom vs safety, it's a balancing act, and a lot of what we do now is based on what we've learned along the way. You have this guy's right to do "whatever he wants," but you also have this other person's right not to have to pay for that guy's personal decisions. When you're living in a society with others where your actions can have a harmful impact on them, compromises (and therefore losses of some freedoms) are required. Sometimes this harm is debatable, and that's when you get a lot of gray back and forth. But other times it's very black and white, and it's time to accept change. I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more that can go wrong up there. It's a pressurized cabin with nowhere to go, where children and the elderly are also present.

I'm against banning alcohol from bars, though, because... they're bars. That's the point of the business.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:09:17 pm by Chinguetti »