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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #420 on: June 11, 2019, 10:45:04 am »
Quote
A Republican, a blue collar factory worker, and an undocumented farm worker making $12/hr for back breaking work are sitting at a table with 100 cookies. The Republican immediately grabs 99 of the cookies, looks at the factory worker and says "hey, you better watch out, that farm worker is gonna steal your cookie!"

 :cheesy:
That's not wholly how it works. Those cookies did not spontaneously generate, nor did the farm worker create the farm. The farm didn't appear out of nowhere. Nor did the millions of dollars worth of equipment. Nor did the distribution vehicles.

However, if you can only comprehend economics in terms of cookies at a table due to limited capacity, then I can see how you would think that's the way it is.


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #421 on: June 11, 2019, 01:25:03 pm »
You're a victim of that Rep as well, why are you defending him believing in 'Freedom'?
Who's ready for another 4 years of Trump 2020!


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #422 on: June 11, 2019, 01:46:01 pm »
You're a victim of that Rep as well, why are you defending him believing in 'Freedom'?
Well aside from not living in North Korea and possibly having been shot or starved, I am a U.S. citizen because of the system of the U.S., flawed as it is. This would also include my grandparents, one side that was particularly well-off, and my parents, one of whom was quite successful to the point where voting Republican is seriously in my family's best interests. Before you say that was unearned, my grandfather earned it dodging torpedoes. My father built his on his own because he didn't want anything from his grandfather, lost it all, and rebuilt again.

Is some of it the system? Sure. Some of it is also luck. And some of it is good or shitty life choices and genetics.

Reflexively blaming Republicans for everything bad is just dumb.  Same as blaming libruls or immygants.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #423 on: June 12, 2019, 07:11:38 am »
Really good comment in the NY Times about the growing division in America...

Quote
This division is a reflection of our values, not our politics.  The Democrats want to protect human rights, protect the environment, take care of our children, have a living wage for all, and provide decent healthcare and education.  Democrats call that freedom.

Republicans want to make sure only the white males are in charge, have state control over female reproductive organs, the rich and big corporations pay no taxes, guns are everywhere and unrestricted, an evangelical religious theocracy determines our societal norms, deny science and call it a hoax, burn as much coal and oil as possible, poison the environment if doing so boosts Wall Street profits, and eliminate collective bargaining.  Republicans call that freedom.

Now!  Are we just divided, or has half the county lost its mind? 

People are not rational, they are emotional.  This is not a distinction between left and right, this is a distinction between reality and fantasy.  Dictators are very good at creating fantasies.  That's how they acquire power.  Their fantasies appeal to emotional responses.  This what Republicans have done to take power.  The Democrats are stuck with reality and reality is a much harder sell.  It's tough to make things work.  Fantasies, not so much.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/state-legislatures-partisan-polarized.html

Think that nails it...


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #424 on: June 12, 2019, 07:32:35 am »
Quote
A Republican, a blue collar factory worker, and an undocumented farm worker making $12/hr for back breaking work are sitting at a table with 100 cookies. The Republican immediately grabs 99 of the cookies, looks at the factory worker and says "hey, you better watch out, that farm worker is gonna steal your cookie!"

 :cheesy:
That's not wholly how it works. Those cookies did not spontaneously generate, nor did the farm worker create the farm. The farm didn't appear out of nowhere. Nor did the millions of dollars worth of equipment. Nor did the distribution vehicles.

However, if you can only comprehend economics in terms of cookies at a table due to limited capacity, then I can see how you would think that's the way it is.
Well, there we have it.  The master of the inapt metaphor, dishonest comparison, irrelevant whataboutism and false equivalency has spoken.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #425 on: June 12, 2019, 07:36:58 am »
Really good comment in the NY Times about the growing division in America...

Quote
This division is a reflection of our values, not our politics.  The Democrats want to protect human rights, protect the environment, take care of our children, have a living wage for all, and provide decent healthcare and education.  Democrats call that freedom.

Republicans want to make sure only the white males are in charge, have state control over female reproductive organs, the rich and big corporations pay no taxes, guns are everywhere and unrestricted, an evangelical religious theocracy determines our societal norms, deny science and call it a hoax, burn as much coal and oil as possible, poison the environment if doing so boosts Wall Street profits, and eliminate collective bargaining.  Republicans call that freedom.

Now!  Are we just divided, or has half the county lost its mind? 

People are not rational, they are emotional.  This is not a distinction between left and right, this is a distinction between reality and fantasy.  Dictators are very good at creating fantasies.  That's how they acquire power.  Their fantasies appeal to emotional responses.  This what Republicans have done to take power.  The Democrats are stuck with reality and reality is a much harder sell.  It's tough to make things work.  Fantasies, not so much.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/state-legislatures-partisan-polarized.html

Think that nails it...

democrats good! republicans bad! democrats good! republicans bad!

yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #426 on: June 12, 2019, 08:48:32 am »
Well, there we have it.  The master of the inapt metaphor, dishonest comparison, irrelevant whataboutism and false equivalency has spoken.

I think something has short-circuited in him. 

Quote
One day, a horse walks into a bar.  The barman says, 'why the long face?'
:cheesy:
I'm not sure that, due to health and safety, that a horse would be allowed into a bar.  Certainly, in pre-Tsarist Russia, horses were allowed to frequent bars, but only for a maximum of five minutes and that's only if they bought a drink that was 40% proof.  So your premise falls flat. 

That is unless you don't possess the mental faculties to understand this.  You don't do you?



Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #427 on: June 12, 2019, 08:59:25 am »
yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?

Well, actually, yes it is.  For example...

Quote
“We're putting in a resolution sometime in the next week, or week and a half, two weeks. … We're going to put in -- we're giving a middle-income tax reduction of about 10 percent. We're doing it now for middle-income people. This is not for business; this is for middle. That's on top of the tax decrease that we've already given them.”

That is way easier to sell, than someone who talks realistically about tax.  So boring.  I want a quick fix with a few memorable buzzwords in there.  Mexico is going to pay for the wall?  Build the wall!!  Pure fantasy.  It says a lot about a population that listens to this nonsense and believes it is in anyway possible. 


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #428 on: June 12, 2019, 09:49:46 am »
yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?

Well, actually, yes it is.  For example...

Quote
“We're putting in a resolution sometime in the next week, or week and a half, two weeks. … We're going to put in -- we're giving a middle-income tax reduction of about 10 percent. We're doing it now for middle-income people. This is not for business; this is for middle. That's on top of the tax decrease that we've already given them.”

That is way easier to sell, than someone who talks realistically about tax.  So boring.  I want a quick fix with a few memorable buzzwords in there.  Mexico is going to pay for the wall?  Build the wall!!  Pure fantasy.  It says a lot about a population that listens to this nonsense and believes it is in anyway possible. 


*whoosh*


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #429 on: June 12, 2019, 10:23:53 am »
Really good comment in the NY Times about the growing division in America...

Quote
This division is a reflection of our values, not our politics.  The Democrats want to protect human rights, protect the environment, take care of our children, have a living wage for all, and provide decent healthcare and education.  Democrats call that freedom.

Republicans want to make sure only the white males are in charge, have state control over female reproductive organs, the rich and big corporations pay no taxes, guns are everywhere and unrestricted, an evangelical religious theocracy determines our societal norms, deny science and call it a hoax, burn as much coal and oil as possible, poison the environment if doing so boosts Wall Street profits, and eliminate collective bargaining. Republicans call that freedom.

Now!  Are we just divided, or has half the county lost its mind? 

People are not rational, they are emotional.  This is not a distinction between left and right, this is a distinction between reality and fantasy.  Dictators are very good at creating fantasies.  That's how they acquire power.  Their fantasies appeal to emotional responses.  This what Republicans have done to take power.  The Democrats are stuck with reality and reality is a much harder sell.  It's tough to make things work.  Fantasies, not so much.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/state-legislatures-partisan-polarized.html

Think that nails it...

democrats good! republicans bad! democrats good! republicans bad!

yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?

Yeah, when you think stuff like that, you're living in fantasy land.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #430 on: June 12, 2019, 10:31:53 am »
yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?

Well, actually, yes it is.  For example...

Quote
“We're putting in a resolution sometime in the next week, or week and a half, two weeks. … We're going to put in -- we're giving a middle-income tax reduction of about 10 percent. We're doing it now for middle-income people. This is not for business; this is for middle. That's on top of the tax decrease that we've already given them.”

That is way easier to sell, than someone who talks realistically about tax.  So boring.  I want a quick fix with a few memorable buzzwords in there.  Mexico is going to pay for the wall?  Build the wall!!  Pure fantasy.  It says a lot about a population that listens to this nonsense and believes it is in anyway possible. 

You do realize the fantasy is that Trump supporters believed this 100% and took him literally, right? Yet a sizable chunk of Trump's opponents think this about his supporters.

However if you seriously talk to them, most think that what most of what Trump promises isn't achievable. What they are supporting is the fact that he will actually try and do something about it and while he may not succeed at everything, he might at least succeed at one thing. He's the only one willing to look at some things and say "Hey, this is messed up."

Their perception is that the Democratic party has completely disregarded them, which is not wholly irrational. Look at the way the Democratic party talks about rural and working class Americans. Sure they might give lip service, but many of the Democrats (and a fair number of Republicans) are going pure coastal, tech-based, and relatively affluent. Hillary reflected this by ignoring Wisconsin and not centering her campaign message around working class voters (which her own husband took her to task over). Actions have consequences. All those anti-white and anti-male and anti-rural/Southern comments over the years have taken their toll, just like with Republicans and black voters and their decades of displayed contempt.


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #431 on: June 12, 2019, 09:08:47 pm »
yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?

Well, actually, yes it is.  For example...

Quote
“We're putting in a resolution sometime in the next week, or week and a half, two weeks. … We're going to put in -- we're giving a middle-income tax reduction of about 10 percent. We're doing it now for middle-income people. This is not for business; this is for middle. That's on top of the tax decrease that we've already given them.”

That is way easier to sell, than someone who talks realistically about tax.  So boring.  I want a quick fix with a few memorable buzzwords in there.  Mexico is going to pay for the wall?  Build the wall!!  Pure fantasy.  It says a lot about a population that listens to this nonsense and believes it is in anyway possible. 

You do realize the fantasy is that Trump supporters believed this 100% and took him literally, right? Yet a sizable chunk of Trump's opponents think this about his supporters.

However if you seriously talk to them, most think that what most of what Trump promises isn't achievable. What they are supporting is the fact that he will actually try and do something about it and while he may not succeed at everything, he might at least succeed at one thing. He's the only one willing to look at some things and say "Hey, this is messed up."

Their perception is that the Democratic party has completely disregarded them, which is not wholly irrational. Look at the way the Democratic party talks about rural and working class Americans. Sure they might give lip service, but many of the Democrats (and a fair number of Republicans) are going pure coastal, tech-based, and relatively affluent. Hillary reflected this by ignoring Wisconsin and not centering her campaign message around working class voters (which her own husband took her to task over). Actions have consequences. All those anti-white and anti-male and anti-rural/Southern comments over the years have taken their toll, just like with Republicans and black voters and their decades of displayed contempt.
Can you relate some of these conversations you're having with trump supporters since  you "actually talk to them"?

I've seen quite a few interviews with trump supporters who were very disappointed he hadn't built the wall yet. And that was over a year ago,  I wonder what they think now.

And he's still saying Mexico, China and whoever else crosses his mind is paying for everything while even Kudlow is saying no the American consumer is paying.  Now its a secret deal with Mexico that's going to solve everything.

What WOULD solve a lot of the problem is using all this money he wants for a wall to hire more judges to deal with the asylum seekers immediately instead of letting them go until their cases are heard. Eighty percent are denied asylum so they could be sent back posthaste.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #432 on: June 13, 2019, 07:27:49 am »
What WOULD solve a lot of the problem is using all this money he wants for ... 

...... his three million plus dollar trips to Ireland recently to play golf and to plug his Irish golf course.  I forget who foots this bill again....


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #433 on: June 13, 2019, 01:08:13 pm »
yeah, it is easier to sell fantasy, isn't it?

Well, actually, yes it is.  For example...

Quote
“We're putting in a resolution sometime in the next week, or week and a half, two weeks. … We're going to put in -- we're giving a middle-income tax reduction of about 10 percent. We're doing it now for middle-income people. This is not for business; this is for middle. That's on top of the tax decrease that we've already given them.”

That is way easier to sell, than someone who talks realistically about tax.  So boring.  I want a quick fix with a few memorable buzzwords in there.  Mexico is going to pay for the wall?  Build the wall!!  Pure fantasy.  It says a lot about a population that listens to this nonsense and believes it is in anyway possible. 

You do realize the fantasy is that Trump supporters believed this 100% and took him literally, right? Yet a sizable chunk of Trump's opponents think this about his supporters.
Um, wrong.  Wrongity-wrong-wrong.  Here's part of a conversation with Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham:

Quote
“You and I both know that this president has said things, over and over, that aren’t true,” {Craig} Melvin said.

“No, I don’t know that,” said Graham. “I don’t sit around and try to find every fault in the president every day, looking for everything that he might have misspoken or mis-said. I don’t do that.”

Melvin tried again: “But you can acknowledge that the president has said things that aren’t true?”

But Graham wouldn’t bite:

“I don’t think the president is sitting there behind the desk trying to make up lies. I don’t believe that for a second. Has he misspoken on something? Sure. All of us do that. You do it and I do it. And sometimes we get the facts wrong and we say something that later on we realize, we could’ve said it better or it was misrepresented.”

So Franklin Graham, sadly the leader of a large group of evangelical Christians believes that aside from a slip of the tongue here or there, LITERALLY EVERYTHING TRUMP SAYS IS TRUE.

Sorry, who is living in a fantasy land?


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #434 on: June 13, 2019, 01:37:20 pm »
So Franklin Graham, sadly the leader of a large group of evangelical Christians believes that aside from a slip of the tongue here or there, LITERALLY EVERYTHING TRUMP SAYS IS TRUE.

Sorry, who is living in a fantasy land?
Which is more likely-
A) Aside from those slips, Frankling Graham believes that literally everything Trump says is true.
B) Franklin Graham gave a political answer.

I'll go with B. Also, I find it baffling that someone could read the above, and arrive at the interpretation you did AND THEN apply it to most or all Trump supporters.

Look at AOC, when she says the world is going to end in 12 years and that the rich are going to pay 90% or whatever other thing she comes up with, do you take her literally? I don't. Many on the right do and flip their lid. I can tell when someone is trying to catch your attention and get you thinking in a certain direction. That's what she's doing, same as Trump.

There was a study that was done on conservatives vs. liberals and their ability to understand allegory, metaphor, etc.  and it showed conservatives on average were better, likely because of their increased familiarity with it through religious services and readings. Thus, they were better at distinguishing literal from allegorical. However, that being said, there was a significant subset that really struggled and took things hyper-literally.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #435 on: June 13, 2019, 01:53:12 pm »
There was a study that was done on conservatives vs. liberals and their ability to understand allegory, metaphor, etc.  and it showed conservatives on average were better, likely because of their increased familiarity with it through religious services and readings. Thus, they were better at distinguishing literal from allegorical. However, that being said, there was a significant subset that really struggled and took things hyper-literally.

we might be better off asking whether or not we want our political leaders to be speaking in allegories


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #436 on: June 13, 2019, 03:16:29 pm »
we might be better off asking whether or not we want our political leaders to be speaking in allegories
Well for a time our leaders stuck to stump speeches saying the same sort of things. What they said wasn't really a lie. It was just very vague aspirations that carried little risk (at least for mainstream candidates). Trump changed all that and brought a level of insult, showmanship, braggadocio that somewhat fit a populace that was angry with the establishment and whose pop culture was filled with anti-heroes.


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #437 on: June 13, 2019, 08:25:59 pm »
So Franklin Graham, sadly the leader of a large group of evangelical Christians believes that aside from a slip of the tongue here or there, LITERALLY EVERYTHING TRUMP SAYS IS TRUE.

Sorry, who is living in a fantasy land?
Which is more likely-
A) Aside from those slips, Frankling Graham believes that literally everything Trump says is true.
B) Franklin Graham gave a political answer.

I'll go with B. Also, I find it baffling that someone could read the above, and arrive at the interpretation you did AND THEN apply it to most or all Trump supporters.

Look at AOC, when she says the world is going to end in 12 years and that the rich are going to pay 90% or whatever other thing she comes up with, do you take her literally? I don't. Many on the right do and flip their lid. I can tell when someone is trying to catch your attention and get you thinking in a certain direction. That's what she's doing, same as Trump.

There was a study that was done on conservatives vs. liberals and their ability to understand allegory, metaphor, etc.  and it showed conservatives on average were better, likely because of their increased familiarity with it through religious services and readings. Thus, they were better at distinguishing literal from allegorical. However, that being said, there was a significant subset that really struggled and took things hyper-literally.
There is a good chance that for many the world--as we know it--will end. For example, a village in Wales on the coast is already making plans to move everyone out by 2040. What about all the Americans in these towns that keep flooding or burning due to global heating?  And all the wildlife and other species  that are already emigrating north?

It's no surprise you would support the supporters of a known liar. How about a ling to that "study"?


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #438 on: June 13, 2019, 10:07:24 pm »
So Franklin Graham, sadly the leader of a large group of evangelical Christians believes that aside from a slip of the tongue here or there, LITERALLY EVERYTHING TRUMP SAYS IS TRUE.

Sorry, who is living in a fantasy land?
Which is more likely-
A) Aside from those slips, Frankling Graham believes that literally everything Trump says is true.
B) Franklin Graham gave a political answer.
A. Definitely A.  To argue otherwise, you are ignoring everything that has happened in the US in the last two years.

Sadly, that's exactly what you'll do.
Quote
I'll go with B. Also, I find it baffling that someone could read the above, and arrive at the interpretation you did AND THEN apply it to most or all Trump supporters.
See? I'm right again. As usual.
Quote
Look at AOC, when she says the world is going to end in 12 years and that the rich are going to pay 90% or whatever other thing she comes up with, do you take her literally? I don't. Many on the right do and flip their lid. I can tell when someone is trying to catch your attention and get you thinking in a certain direction. That's what she's doing, same as Trump.

There was a study that was done on conservatives vs. liberals and their ability to understand allegory, metaphor, etc.  and it showed conservatives on average were better, likely because of their increased familiarity with it through religious services and readings. Thus, they were better at distinguishing literal from allegorical. However, that being said, there was a significant subset that really struggled and took things hyper-literally.
Beyond absurd.  It so happens I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church (my family were missionaries, for heaven's sake!) and no one I ever knew saw anything in the Bible as anything but LITERALLY TRUE.  The SBC (C for Convention here) is the largest Protestant denomination in the US.  There is no allegory or metaphor or hermeneutics or anything other than revealed truth.  You are full of it here, as usual. 

BTW, you don't cite your study.  It was probably a metaphor for how conservatives believe nonsense … amiright?

Oh, and Graham (I attended a number of his father's rallies in my day, and he is turning in his grave) is an important leader of the evangelicals that form the strongest part of Trump's base.  They think just like he does.  It's not a subset, it's a significant majority of American fundamentalists. You are living in a fantasy world where folks don't shoot up pizza parlors or send pipe bombs to Trump's enemies or run people over at Nazi rallies. 

Keep your focus on Kim's "beautiful" letter to Trump, and Trump's call for other foreign adversaries send out misinformation about his elector foes, and whatever else horrible thing the scumbag-in-chief did today.  Just, whatever you do, don't vote!


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #439 on: June 14, 2019, 07:18:00 am »
we might be better off asking whether or not we want our political leaders to be speaking in allegories
Well for a time our leaders stuck to stump speeches saying the same sort of things. What they said wasn't really a lie. It was just very vague aspirations that carried little risk (at least for mainstream candidates). Trump changed all that and brought a level of insult, showmanship, braggadocio that somewhat fit a populace that was angry with the establishment and whose pop culture was filled with anti-heroes.

so we exchanged vague aspirations for specific aspirations that we are supposed to take metaphorically? in the end, it doesn't seem like much has changed. and again, going forward, do we really want our political leaders speaking with such a lack of precision?

don't get me wrong... i love when socrates, plato, or aristotle use allegories. allegories are great. i just don't want to sift through "metaphors" when dealing with something that should be precise (ex. public policy).

edit: some philosophers and a word
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 07:19:53 am by tylerthegloob »