Read 12162 times

Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #220 on: February 28, 2019, 02:39:06 pm »
Quote
‘All the signs are bad’
We are gathered for Trump’s press conference at his hotel outside the town centre.

All the signs are the bad, particularly the aborted lunch and signing ceremony. Trump usually revels in such ceremonies, which he likes to style as dramatic breakthroughs and it was built into the schedule since yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/feb/28/trump-kim-summit-leaders-to-meet-for-day-two-of-talks-in-vietnam-live

interesting...

That's a good sign. It means someone is threatening to walk away or has walked away.

Think about it- if this is genuine, NOT walking away would be a sign that someone is disingenuous. There should always be at least 1 or 2 stormouts to show you're serious and to draw a line.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1917

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #221 on: February 28, 2019, 03:26:38 pm »
Give in to economic reform but keep their nukes?

So then we have a stronger nuclear North Korea. Win for Trump!
Would you rather have a North Korea with nukes and not part of the global economy or a North Korea with nukes AND part of the global economy?

Because if North Korea is part of the global economy and is an integral trading partner with China, Japan, the U.S., and South Korea, their incentive for using nuclear weapons pretty much disappears because no one would want to invade them. Exporting them would cause them financial ruin. And the greater prosperity and incoming content that comes with the global economy should start them towards democratization and THEN eventual denuclearization.

Do you have a better plan? More sanctions? Yell at them again to give up their nukes?

Democratization? Are you dreaming?

North Korea wants to be recognized as a [regional] super power. All the world super powers have nuclear weapons. Why would they want to give them up?


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #222 on: February 28, 2019, 03:53:55 pm »
Democratization? Are you dreaming?

North Korea wants to be recognized as a [regional] super power. All the world super powers have nuclear weapons. Why would they want to give them up?
North Korea a regional superpower? They may say that, but I doubt they even believe that themselves. Their economy couldn't enable them to sustain such a position, let alone achieve it.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1917

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #223 on: February 28, 2019, 04:44:51 pm »
Democratization? Are you dreaming?

North Korea wants to be recognized as a [regional] super power. All the world super powers have nuclear weapons. Why would they want to give them up?
North Korea a regional superpower? They may say that, but I doubt they even believe that themselves. Their economy couldn't enable them to sustain such a position, let alone achieve it.

Your solution is to give them that strong economy.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1629

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #224 on: March 01, 2019, 12:14:22 am »
Give in to economic reform but keep their nukes?

So then we have a stronger nuclear North Korea. Win for Trump!
Would you rather have a North Korea with nukes and not part of the global economy or a North Korea with nukes AND part of the global economy?

Because if North Korea is part of the global economy and is an integral trading partner with China, Japan, the U.S., and South Korea, their incentive for using nuclear weapons pretty much disappears because no one would want to invade them. Exporting them would cause them financial ruin. And the greater prosperity and incoming content that comes with the global economy should start them towards democratization and THEN eventual denuclearization.

Do you have a better plan? More sanctions? Yell at them again to give up their nukes?
Nukes are not the main thing that have kept North Korea out of the global economy/world community for the last sixty years, in case you did not know that. 

But I say let's let/force North Korea to open their borders to trade as well as freedom of movement inside the country, and not make disarmament a condition.  The world would simply reel at the conditions the Kim dynasty has created to survive in leadership, and it would end sooner rather than later--removal of the regime is the key goal of any right-thinking people.

I know Trump "loves" him and he is a great leader, a good man and all that, but Kim is simply among the most despicable people who have ever lived. 


  • Adel
  • Expert Waygook

    • 601

    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
    • The Abyss
    more
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #225 on: March 01, 2019, 02:37:58 am »

Cohen doesn't have anything. Even liberal outlets like Slate are telling their readers that Cohen is unreliable and some of his claims don't add up.

Yeah he's a lot like you in some ways in that he has lied to support Trump and has lost credibility as a consequence. Unlike you though, he has admitted to his lies. Furthermore, also unlike you, he can corroborate some of his claims with documentary evidence.



Of course, this isn't new but it helps to put it out there in the public sphere and it makes clear the identity of who the unindicted co-conspirators were in regards to Cohen's two campaign finance crimes.
Unlike MAGA rallies, in court rooms facts do matter which is why it will eventually be problematic for Trump and his cronies. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 07:20:59 am by Adel »


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #226 on: March 01, 2019, 09:18:17 am »
the whole summit was a win for Kim, again, a couple of reasons.

Quote
The breakdown in talks in Hanoi reaffirms what we’ve known for almost a year – this process has been diplomatic amateur hour. Trump has repeatedly undermined his own negotiating position by making clear that he already sees his diplomacy with North Korea as a success. After the first summit with Kim in Singapore in 2018 Trump falsely claimed that “there is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea”. Days before the Hanoi summit, Trump said that he didn’t need Kim to make any more concessions – “as long as there’s no testing [of nuclear weapons and missiles], we’re happy”.

It’s no wonder that Kim wasn’t willing to give more in Hanoi – Trump has been telling him for months that the status quo is just fine.

this is why you have (had) professionals in the state department who actually negotiated for months or years to set the terms, so that when the two leaders meet they aren’t actually talking about completely different things and the whole thing wraps up with a shrug. it’s why the diplomatic process exists.  what trump did was completely pointless and in the long run he's ceding more to Kim.  so the notion of trump 'walking' is in some way genius, is not relevant, as all the negotiations should already be done. 

Quote
Hours later, North Korea’s foreign minister, Ri Yong Ho, offered a slightly different take at a rare news conference, arguing that Kim’s regime sought only “partial” sanctions relief in return for dismantling the North’s main enrichment capabilities for fissile material.

now, we have a known compulsive liar in the White House and we have the North Koreans who are also good at making up tales.  who to believe?  if it were 'no drama' Obama then you'd say that the Koreans were lying, but with trump?  you'd believe the Koreans more. 

also the Cohen thing, that trump had been watching before he met Kim, would have had an effect.  someone in congress laying bare all the stuff that trump has done would have him spitting chips and we know he's not developed maturely enough to leave that outside the room.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1917

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #227 on: March 01, 2019, 09:21:30 am »
New breaking news that Trump ordered his Chief of Staff to grant Jared Kushner top-level security clearance against the advice of the White House Counsel and concerns of top intelligence officials.

Nuclear tech to the Saudis. Kushner has to repay his debts somehow.


  • Adel
  • Expert Waygook

    • 601

    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
    • The Abyss
    more
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #228 on: March 01, 2019, 02:52:10 pm »
OMG  :laugh:

It's enough for the need to deflect by creating a half baked white supremacy thread !
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 02:54:36 pm by Adel »


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3471

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #229 on: March 01, 2019, 10:20:24 pm »
Give in to economic reform but keep their nukes?

So then we have a stronger nuclear North Korea. Win for Trump!
Would you rather have a North Korea with nukes and not part of the global economy or a North Korea with nukes AND part of the global economy?

Because if North Korea is part of the global economy and is an integral trading partner with China, Japan, the U.S., and South Korea, their incentive for using nuclear weapons pretty much disappears because no one would want to invade them. Exporting them would cause them financial ruin. And the greater prosperity and incoming content that comes with the global economy should start them towards democratization and THEN eventual denuclearization.

Do you have a better plan? More sanctions? Yell at them again to give up their nukes?
Why wouldn't your rationale?? hold for Iran?

They're not going to just give up their nukes, not while the Kim clan rules. Any fool can see that.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1917

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #230 on: March 02, 2019, 09:07:26 am »
1) Russia's interference in US Election.

Trump - I believe Putin.

2) Mistreatment of Otto Warmbier.

Trump - I believe Kim Jong Un.

Trump believes Dictators.


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #231 on: March 02, 2019, 01:30:09 pm »
Many of you simply need to focus on your day job...


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #232 on: March 03, 2019, 09:35:46 am »
Nukes are not the main thing that have kept North Korea out of the global economy/world community for the last sixty years, in case you did not know that. 

But I say let's let/force North Korea to open their borders to trade as well as freedom of movement inside the country, and not make disarmament a condition.  The world would simply reel at the conditions the Kim dynasty has created to survive in leadership, and it would end sooner rather than later--removal of the regime is the key goal of any right-thinking people.

I know Trump "loves" him and he is a great leader, a good man and all that, but Kim is simply among the most despicable people who have ever lived.
True, but recently past administrations have demanded denuclearization as a condition for any kind of economic development. Combine that with us declaring North Korea part of an Axis of Evil and assorted Kims looking on at the fate of the Saddams and Muammars of the world and it might be that we went around this the wrong way with a hardline.

But yes, openness without disarmament. It worked for Russia. It will work eventually with China. 5 McDonalds might be more effective than $500 billion worth of sanctions.

When it comes to hereditary dictators, I think you have to be cautious to judge. In many cases the person is thrust into the job. It's a job akin to being a drug kingpin- High Reward, High Mortality. You could be the nicest guy in the world and have the best intentions, but that doesn't mean a thing if it results in a bullet to your brain and General McNasty taking over. And it's not just you that gets killed, often times it's your entire family, including their wives and children. And if you're part of an ethnic minority like Assad is? Then you often get genocide.

Would rather Kim kills 2500 and jails 250,000 so he has control and tries to nudge his country into its own form of glasnost and perestroika which leads to better things and him maybe exiting like Gorby? Or would you rather he go soft and next thing you know the country devolves into anarchy with various warlords vying for control and mass starvation that kills 500,000?


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #233 on: March 03, 2019, 09:36:31 am »
Unlike MAGA rallies, in court rooms facts do matter which is why it will eventually be problematic for Trump and his cronies.
At worst, Trump would likely have to pay a fine.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #234 on: March 03, 2019, 09:51:59 am »
the whole summit was a win for Kim, again, a couple of reasons.
I think most reasoned analysis has said that this wasn't great for either side, but it wasn't a disaster either and we have to wait and see what happens next. Is this just a bump in the road or the start of things collapsing?

Quote
this is why you have (had) professionals in the state department who actually negotiated for months or years to set the terms, so that when the two leaders meet they aren’t actually talking about completely different things and the whole thing wraps up with a shrug. it’s why the diplomatic process exists.  what trump did was completely pointless and in the long run he's ceding more to Kim.  so the notion of trump 'walking' is in some way genius, is not relevant, as all the negotiations should already be done. 

These are the same experts and professionals that got us to this point. Not all diplomacy is of the carefully orchestrated variety, punctuated by wine and cheese receptions and nice things. Some can involve two leaders engaging personally. Some can involve more rough and tumble maneuvers. Sometimes ping-pong or Pandas can be a source of breakthrough.

Trump is wagering that a personal relationship with the person is essential. With a Korean person, that's not a bad guess.

Quote
also the Cohen thing, that trump had been watching before he met Kim, would have had an effect.  someone in congress laying bare all the stuff that trump has done would have him spitting chips and we know he's not developed maturely enough to leave that outside the room.

Yeah, pretty despicable of the Dems to deliberately reschedule the hearing so it would take place at the same time as the summit.

Trump announced his meeting in Hanoi on February. 7th
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/08/politics/trump-hanoi-vietnam/index.html

Cohen and the Dems delayed his testimony until the summit
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics/michael-cohen-public-testimony/index.html

The Democrats tried to deliberately undermine the negotiating position of Trump, negotiations with a nuclear-armed power who is still technically hostile towards us, so they could roll out convicted perjurer Cohen so he could give more false testimony, making it difficult for Trump to sign any sort of deal without accusations of "He's doing this to distract" and tainting it.

Fair play to them in terms of hardball. But that was just as slimy as anything Trump has done.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #235 on: March 03, 2019, 09:56:07 am »
Why wouldn't your rationale?? hold for Iran?

They're not going to just give up their nukes, not while the Kim clan rules. Any fool can see that.
Simple- North Korea is not exporting significant amounts of terror to other countries and backing militants/separatists in Iraq, Syria, Bahrain, Lebanon, and Yemen.

Although I disagree with the more dire Iran DOOM!!!! predictions of Bibi Netanyahu and the Neocons, the two countries and situations are not comparable.


  • Adel
  • Expert Waygook

    • 601

    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
    • The Abyss
    more
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #236 on: March 03, 2019, 10:01:52 am »
Unlike MAGA rallies, in court rooms facts do matter which is why it will eventually be problematic for Trump and his cronies.
At worst, Trump would likely have to pay a fine.

You really should stop looking to Fox & Friends for your legal advice.  :laugh:


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #237 on: March 03, 2019, 10:19:38 am »
Quote
they could roll out convicted perjurer Cohen so he could give more false testimony, making it difficult for Trump to sign any sort of deal without accusations of "He's doing this to distract" and tainting it.

Which parts of his testimony do you think are false, and on what evidence? Given the further legal consequences that perjury would obviously bring, how do you think the relevant prosecutors should approach this serious crime? I've heard him called a liar and perjurer a lot recently, but I haven't heard many calls from Republicans for him to supply documentary evidence in support of his claims about Trump. Seems like that would be an easy way to prove whether or not he's lying.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1917

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #238 on: March 03, 2019, 11:26:20 am »
Quote
they could roll out convicted perjurer Cohen so he could give more false testimony, making it difficult for Trump to sign any sort of deal without accusations of "He's doing this to distract" and tainting it.

Which parts of his testimony do you think are false, and on what evidence? Given the further legal consequences that perjury would obviously bring, how do you think the relevant prosecutors should approach this serious crime? I've heard him called a liar and perjurer a lot recently, but I haven't heard many calls from Republicans for him to supply documentary evidence in support of his claims about Trump. Seems like that would be an easy way to prove whether or not he's lying.

There is no Republican Party under Trump. Just a King and his disciples doing his bidding. The Party of Lincoln and Reagan has long gone.

Trump's latest showing at CPAC clearly shows a man unhinged.


  • NorthStar
  • Super Waygook

    • 252

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Seoul
Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #239 on: March 03, 2019, 12:01:25 pm »

Quote
There is no Republican Party under Trump. Just a King and his disciples doing his bidding. The Party of Lincoln and Reagan has long gone.

...while the Democrat Party remains the same...the party of enslavement.  A "King and his disciples"?  Get real, man. 

Quote
Trump's latest showing at CPAC clearly shows a man unhinged.

Ha...

Are you a representative of the S.P.L.C.?